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MINUTES
Carmel Board of Zoning Appeals
Regular Meeting
Monday, September 22, 2014
6:00 p.m.
Council Chambers, Carmel City Hall
Present: James Hawkins,President
Leo Dierckman
Dennis Lockwood
Earlene Plavchak
Alan Potasnik
Madeleine Tones,Alternate
Connie Tingley,Recording Secretary
Maggie Crediford,Recording Secretary
Staff members in attendance: Alexia Lopez,Planning Administrator
Mike Hollibaugh,Director,Dept. of Community Services
Legal Counsel: John Molitor
Previous Minutes:
On a motion made by Dennis Lockwood and seconded by James Hawkins:
The Minutes for the meeting dated August 22,2014,were approved as circulated.
MOTION CARRIED UNANIMOUSLY
Department Report:
Alexia Lopez:
• Kroger will go first under Old Business as requested at last BZA meeting
• Reminder next meeting will be Tuesday, October 28,not Monday
Legal Council Report:
John Molitor:
• Nothing new to report on pending cases
• Recommended Public Hearings be reversed,making St.Vincent Heart Center Helipad final item on Agenda for
member recusing himself
Motion: On a motion made by James Hawkins and seconded by Alan Potasnik:
Re-order Agenda to hear Item 6,Hertz/Penske Car Rental,second
MOTION CARRIED UNANIMOUSLY
Old Business:
1-4. (V)Kroger Expansion
The applicant seeks the following development standards variance approvals for a building addition:
Docket No. 14070017 V ZO CH 23F.08.01 40,000 sq.ft.Max Building Footprint, 78,406 sq.ft. requested
WWW.CARMEL.IN.GOV Page 1 of 16 (317) 571-2417
Carmel Board of Zoning Appeals
September 22,2014 Meeting
Docket No. 14070018 V ZO CH 27.08: Min 392 Parking Spaces,282 requested
Docket No. 14070019 V ZO CH 33.07.A: 50% Tree Preservation,44% requested
Docket No. 14070020 V ZO CH 25.07.02-03.b: Number of Signs
WITHDRAWN Docket No. 14070021 V ZO CH 25.07.02-03.c: Maximum Sign area
The site is located at 1217 Rangeline Rd. The site is zoned B-SBusiness and lies within the Carmel Dr.—
Range line Rd. Overlay. Filed by Paula Gartner of EMH&T, on behalf of Kroger Limited Partnership.
Present for Petitioner:
Russell Brown,Attorney,Clark, Quinn,Moses, Scott&Grahn, LLP;Brieanna Ramsey and Matt Bala Kroger; Ryan
Rediger,EMH&T; and Elizabeth Williams,Land Planner, Clark, Quinn,Moses, Scott& Grahn, LLP
Russell Brown:
• Changes made based on feedback at last month's meeting
• Sign variance for 4 signs; last month 5 signs
o Removed sign on north façade as requested
o Added second set of lower story windows and four sets of"loft area"windows to make facade look more
like a front facade
• Addressed concerns related to view from Executive Drive
o Four signs will front Rangeline Road
• Three existing signs
• Fourth sign for new specialty product in Central Indiana market
• 39 square foot sign indicated on rendering
• Tree preservation along Executive Drive discussed last month
o Cannot preserve trees
o Propose to add four trees to north facade instead of rows of bushes
o Originally 9 trees along Executive Drive
• Removing one dead tree and four others
• Four trees will be replaced per preservation requirement
• Trees indicated on rendering
• Should grow without interfering with stormwater drain in area
• Building size currently non-conforming
o Expansion allows Kroger to conform with build-to requirements in Overlay District
• Parking variance to reduce spaces to 282
o Cart corral replacement will be part of renovation and expansion through Plan Commission architectural
review
• Hoped to have addressed concerns raised last month
Public Hearing closed
Department Report:
Alexia Lopez
• Since August 25 BZA meeting,Petitioner has agreed to install four trees on north side of addition and new
windows to help soften and break up façade
• No longer requesting sign on north facade facing Executive Drive
• Believe Petitioner has done good job addressing comments brought up at August BZA meeting
Department in support of requested variances and recommend approval with the CONDITION of permanently
moving any donation and recycling bins to south side of building.
Discussion:
• Trees chosen will not affect private stormwater system
• Petitioner has no objection to Condition of placing bins on south side of building
Motion: On a motion made by Leo Dierckman and seconded by James Hawkins:
Page 2 of 16
Carmel Board of Zoning Appeals
September 22,2014 Meeting
Docket Nos. 14070017 V through 14070020 V,Kroger Expansion,be approved with the CONDITION all
recycling and collection donation bins are moved to the south end of the building.
MOTION CARRIED UNANIMOUSLY
Public Hearing
6. (UV)Hertz/Penske Car Rental,Park Place PUD
The applicant seeks the following use variance for a car rental business:
Docket No. 14080006 UV PUD Z-521-08, Section 2 Permitted Primary Uses
The site is located at 1441 South Guilford Road and is zoned Park Place PUD (Ordinance Z-521-08). Filed by
Christopher Braun of Plews, Shadley, Racher&Braun on behalf of Shelley Johnston with Hertz/Penske Car Rental.
Present for Petitioner:
Todd Relue,Plews, Shadley,Racher&Braun
• Site map shown; E. 116th Street/South Guilford Road
• Penske has existing facility in Cannel at Northside Courtyard Marriott on North Meridian Street
o Impacted by US 31 road construction
o Hard for customers to access facility for pick up and return
• Park Place PUD does not permit car rental facilities
• Car and truck care center makes perfect location
o Napa Auto Parks, Goodyear Tire and PFM Car&Truck Care
• 3800 square feet on southwest corner open and undeveloped
o Divide out 1400 square feet for office space; interior renovation
o Existing 1000 square feet wash bay on back of building
• Curtain to prevent over-spray
• Vacuum cleaning system for upholstery and carpet between rentals
o No external renovations
• Will not have large parking facility with cars stored out front
o Agreement between landlord and Penske to limit cars out front to eight
• Site shown: four spaces on each side of entrance from Guildford Road
• Remainder of cars stored in back
• During the week 10 to 15 cars on site
• Excess cars stored near wash facility
• On weekend up to 20 cars in back,plus eight up front
• Area fully screened from both roads
o Blocked by building from Guilford Road
o Tree cover blocks view from 116th Street
• TAC ask for Traffic Impact Summary
o 8300 cars per day along Guilford Road
o Estimated increase would be 121 trips day; little over one percent
• Department requested Condition on approval of limiting out front storage of cars to eight
Public Hearing closed
Department Report:
Alexia Lopez
• Park Place PUB does not permit auto sales which would include car rentals
• Auto sales typically large building with parking around it
o Petitioner willing to limit outdoor car storage to eight cars
o Any additional vehicles will be stored in back of site behind building and blocked from view
• Should not have negative affect on surrounding properties
o Located in existing commercial building with similar auto oriented uses
Page 3 of 16
Carmel Board of Zoning Appeals
September 22,2014 Meeting
Department supportive of Use Variance and recommends favorable consideration with the Condition of only eight
cars be stored in front of building at one time.
Discussion:
• Petitioner amiable to 8 cars storage Condition
Motion: On a motion made by James Hawkins and seconded by Leo Dierckman:
Docket No. 14080006 UV,Hertz/Penske Car Rental,Park Place PUD,be approved with the CONDITION of no
more than eight(8)cars parked in front of the building
MOTION CARRIED UNANIMOUSLY
Mr.Dierckman recused himself.Mrs. Torres joined the Board.
1-5. (UV,V) St.Vincent Heart Center Helipad
The applicant seeks the following use variance and development standards variance approvals for a private
helicopter landing facility:
Docket No. 14070012 UV ZO CH 16.01 Permitted Uses
Docket No. 14070013 V ZO CH 23B.07: Min Tract Size 5 Acres, 1.33 acres proposed
Docket No. 14070014 V ZO CH 33.05.A: Perimeter Bufferyards,0 provided
Docket No. 14070015 V ZO CH 33.06.C: US 31 Landscape Requirements, no plantings in the
Greenbelt proposed
Docket No. 14070016 V ZO CH 33.07.A: Tree Preservation, no tree preservation proposed
The site is located at 10202 North Meridian Street and is zoned B-5/Business as well at S-2/Residential within the
US 31 Corridor Overlay. Filed by Paul Reis of Krieg DeVault on behalf of St.Vincent Heart Center of Indiana,
LLC.
Present for Petitioner:
Andy Buroker,Krieg DeVault; Blake Dye,President St.Vincent Heart Center; and Paul Clendenen, System Director
Real Estate Services St. Vincent Health
Andy Buroker
• 2001 The Heart Hospital(now St. Vincent Heart Center of Indiana)received variance for development of hospital
and adjacent medical office building
o Variance allowed 68 parking spaces to encroach into front yard along US 31
o No other variances were requested or required
• June 2001 applications for Development Plan and ADLS were approved by Plan Commission
o No Commitments requested or made
• Including any Commitments regarding a helipad
• If helipad proposed in future,would need BZA approval
• September 2008 St. Vincent Heart Center requested variance for helipad to be located on Heart Center site
o BZA denied that request
• Concerns about noise and safety voiced by residents in adjacent area west of hospital site
• For this proposal, helipad is limited use by Heart Center and location is not at Heart Center property
o On average, less than one flight anticipated per day
o Far less than helipads serving multi-specialty hospitals or trauma centers
o Heart Center utilizing helipad formerly owned by Conseco; approximately 2 miles from Heart Center
• Use is not exclusive to Heart Center
• Site closer and less susceptible to traffic is important for ambulance transporting patients
o This site for sole use by the Heart Center and not adjacent to any residential areas
• In upgrade of US 31 a large portion of land was acquired by State of Indiana from Pilgrim
Lutheran Church located just north of I-465 and US 31 interchange
• Approximately 8.5 acres for sale
• Heart Center approached owner about purchasing parcel at far end of property adjacent to
US 31 and new on-ramp from southbound US 31 to westbound 1-465
Page 4 of 16
Carmel Board of Zoning Appeals
September 22,2014 Meeting
o Site bordered by trees and undeveloped commercial real estate; office buildings
to west and surface parking lot to be built for Geico Technicolor building to north
o Site is not adjacent to nor abuts any residential properties
o Approved FAA flight path will be from southeast to northeast; avoiding all
residential areas to northwest
o Site uniquely situated for helipad to serve the needs of Heart Center
• Proximity to Heart Center
• Addresses concerns expressed by residents to west of Heart Center to be
located away from residential areas
• Pursuant to Indiana Statutory Law and Carmel's Zoning Ordinance,facts presented to support application for Use
Variance
o Approval not contrary to public interests due to special conditions of property such that enforcement of
Zoning Ordinance will result in unnecessary hardship
• In public interest,helipad should be located away from residential areas but as near Heart Center
as possible to provide time critical care to patients
• Proposed site is adjacent to two interstate level highways, commercial office buildings, a
line of trees and a commercial surface parking lot
• Away from residential areas
• Less than one half mile from Heart Center
• Proposed site will allow for helicopter flight paths to avoid any residential areas
• Eliminating risks of helicopter accidents in residential areas
• Eliminating noise from use of helipad
• Approval of variance will permit helipad less than one half mile from Heart Center
• Eliminating potential impact of traffic on ambulance transport to Heart Center from
current helipad
• Unnecessary hardship of traffic affecting the transport of patients two miles from helipad
located at 122nd and Pennsylvania streets
o Approval of variance will not be injurious to public health, safety, morals and general welfare of
community
• Site located on isolated parcel immediately adjacent to two interstate level highways and away
from any residential areas
• Proposed site allows helicopter flight paths to avoid residential areas
• Eliminating risk of helicopter accidents in residential areas
• Eliminating noise from use of helipad
• Recorded sound metering at closest residence for sound levels to be generated from helipad use
showed sound levels that did not exceed the level in a living room with music or television
playing quietly
• Recorded sound metering to hotel immediately north of site showed sound levels slightly more
than level found in living room with music or television playing quietly,but still less than normal
conversational speech
• Proposed site eliminates potential impact of traffic on ambulance transport to Heart Center from
this helipad
o Use and value of area adjacent to site will not be affected in a substantially adverse manner because areas
adjacent to site are US 31 and I-465; real estate restricted to commercial uses; multi-story,multi-tenant
office building; Geico Technicolor office building and associated parking areas; surface parking lot to be
built to service Geico Technicolor office and the Courtyard by Marriott
• Adjacent area in US 31 Overlay Zone limits permitted uses to commercial uses,which includes
hospitals
• Helipad is common ancillary use to hospital
• Consistent to adjacent area within Overlay Zone
• Unlike multi-specialty hospital,Heart Center helipad will have very limited number of
flights
Page 5of16
Carmel Board of Zoning Appeals
September 22,2014 Meeting
• Helipad will not impact or interfere with use of adjacent areas nor adversely effect
adjacent area
• Recorded sound metering at closest resident for sound levels generated from helipad use showed
sound levels that did not exceed level found in living room with music or television playing
quietly
• Recorded sound metering at hotel to north for sound levels generated from helipad use showed
sound levels only slightly more than level found in living room with music or television playing
quietly, but less than normal conversational speech
• Need for variance arises from natural condition peculiar to property because unlike any other
applicable parcel in the US 31 Corridor, this site provides most suitable and appropriate location
for helipad to exclusively serve Heart Center
• Location less than one half mile from Heart Center
• Transport route will be unaffected by traffic
• 1.3 acre site is located away from residential areas and completely surrounded by
commercial real estate and highways
• 1.3 acre site is a remnant parcel,too small for any other commercial development
permitted in US 31 Overlay Zone
• Approval does not substantially interfere with the Carmel Clay Comprehensive Plan because site
is located within Employment Node
• Includes hospitals
o Proposed helipad is ancillary operation of Heart Center
Blake Dye
• St.Vincent Heart Center is Midwest and Nationally acclaimed heart center
o Received Top 100 cardiovascular program designation
o Recently Top 50 cardiovascular programs
• Only one in Indiana
• Majority of all cardiac procedures done at 106th Street location; not 86th Street(70%to 30% split)
• Many hospitals within statewide system do not have access to emergency care and cardiac services
o Anderson,Kokomo,New Castle,Rushville
• Helicopter transports cardiac patients rapidly over great distances which is important for nationally acclaimed
cardiac hospital
• Proposed helipad gives exclusive use of site
o Control, access and management of helipad important
o Less than one half mile away
• Important with tremendous road construction on US 31
• Currently two miles across very busy intersection at 106th Street and US 31
• Proposed site with low impact on neighbors
Paul Clendenen
• St.Vincent selected site to be located away from neighborhood as expressed in 2008
o Commercial area with two highways,commercial real estate,NRC Corp. office space, Meridian Towers,
Technicolor, Courtyard property and IU/St. Vincent administrative office buildings
o 1.3 acre isolated site at end of remnant of taking by INDOT
o Helipad close to new ramp for I-465 and US 31 right-of-way
o Over 1100 feet from closest neighbors
o Almost 1700 feet to neighbors to east
o Location permits flight path within commercial zone
• Will use US 31 Corridor and I-465 for flight traffic in and out of area
o Current helipad over two miles from Heart Center
• Heavy traffic at US 31 with greater risks for accidents and delays in transferring patients
• Transportation all interior from new site through new Illinois expansion
• Avoid heavy,congested traffic
Page 6 of 16
Carmel Board of Zoning Appeals
September 22,2014 Meeting
• Minimizing need for sirens in community
• Site plan shown with I-465,US 31 right-of-way ramp and future Geico parking lot
o Secure four-foot fence around pad with landscape screening
o Small parking pad for ambulance
o Small, shielded light that does not bleed over
o Lights for helipad operated remotely by pilot; turned on as approach
• Pilots use night-vision goggles for safety
o Not illuminated, no signage
o Continue landscaping shrubbery along right-of-way, like Geico
o Some large trees removed for clean landing zone
o Some trees remain along property line
• Flight path will stay in US 31 corridor and 1-465
o Preliminary FAA approval with 135 degree angle for access to pad
o Final approval after pad is set
• Very limited flight frequencies
o Heart hospital,not acute care trauma center
o Chart shown:
• 2012 less than one per day
• 2013-14 has dropped to 3 to 4 per week
• One per week between 10:00 p.m. and 7:00 a.m.
• Trauma Center at 86th Street experiencing a little over two per day because it is an acute
level hospital
• Sound testing
o August 22 to December 12 placed three meters in neighborhood backyards above fence(clear line with no
obstructions from fence) and one just south of Courtyard Hotel
• Sound comparison chart shown with levels of common sounds
• Living room with music or television playing quietly—60 decibels
• Conversational speech—70 decibels
• Bedroom—40 decibels
• Quiet office—50 decibels
• Hired sound engineer, Bob Hannen of Wiss,Janney,Elstner Associates,Inc.
• Could not do landing at site with construction,trees, debris, etc.
• Measured sound at 86th Street helipad
o Used sound system to replicate sound at the pad site
• Spring Highland home closest to pad and Colmery to northwest barely got into mid-50's
• Spikes to 60 are vehicle traffic
• Colmery Street barely got to 50 decibels
• Millridge, which is closest to US 31 and Illinois,was low 50 decibels range
• Courtyard stayed in low 60's and upper 50's range
• Sound level in neighborhood ranged from 46 (1100 feet)to 52 (Courtyard and Millridge at 1800
feet)for various locations
• Reading stayed in low 50's to barely 60 decibels
• Readings show sound to be generated from use of helipad shall not have any noticeable affect or
impact on commercial or residential areas west of Illinois Street
Andy Buroker
• St. Vincent Hospital has also applied for Development Standards Variances as result of small size of parcel and in
order to comply with FAA regulations governing use and operation of helipad
o Minimum tract size, less than five acres
• Due to acquisition of real estate by the State of Indiana to upgrade US 31 to freeway status
o No perimeter bufferyard
o No greenbelt landscaping
o Allow removal of certain trees to create obstruction-free zone around helipad
Page 7 of 16
Carmel Board of Zoning Appeals
September 22,2014 Meeting
o Approval of variances will not be injurious to public health, safety, morals or general welfare of
community
• Non-conforming parcel size results from acquisition of additional right-of-way by State of
Indiana to upgrade US 31 to freeway status
• Construct new interchange on I-465
• Parcel size will not have any effect on public health, safety, morals or general welfare of
community
• No building will be constructed on property
• Nothing to buffer
• FAA requirements provide obstruction-free zones for landing and takeoff paths,prohibit
trees and limit height of other landscaping
• FAA requirements for safe landing and takeoff from helipad provide for obstruction-free zone to
facilitate safe maneuvering of aircraft,to provide for health, safety and general welfare of
community and patients
• Summary:
o Use and value of area adjacent to this property will not be affected in a substantially adverse manner:
• US 31 and I-465
• Real estate restricted to commercial uses which will not be affected by limited use
• Undeveloped land owned by NRC Corp
• Multi-story,multi-tenant office building
• Geico Technicolor office and associated parking
• Surface lot to be built to serve Geico office building
• Courtyard Hotel
o Adjacent areas in US 31 Overlay Zone limits permitted uses to commercial uses which includes hospitals
• Helipad is common ancillary use to hospital
• Consistent with adjacent area within Overlay Zone
o Unlike multi-specialty hospital, Heart Center helipad will have very limited number of flights
• Helipad will not impact or interfere with areas adjacent to site
• Will not have substantially adverse effect on value of adjacent areas
o Recorded sound metering at closest non-adjacent residences for sound levels to be generated from helipad
use indicated sound levels that did not exceed levels found in living room with music or television
playing quietly
o Recorded sound metering at hotel to north of site for sound levels indicated sound levels were slightly
more than levels found in living room with music or television playing,but less than normal
conversational speech
• Strict application of terms of Zoning Ordinance to property will result in practical difficulties in use of property
o Property is generally unsuitable for most uses due to acquisition of additional right-of-way by State to
upgrade US 31 to freeway status and new interchange at I-465
o FAA requirements for obstruction-free zone around helipad will not permit landscape bufferyard or
landscape greenbelt required under Ordinance
NOTE: Mr. Hawkins informed the audience 20 minutes would be allowed for Remonstrance. The Board had reviewed the
numerous letters and emails concerning the helipad and residential areas. They have a grasp of the concerns.Those do not
need to be repeated. Please make new or unique comments only.
Remonstrance:
Drew Soshnick,Attorney, Faegre Baker Daniels, on behalf of Reserve 2
• May 25, 2001 Mr. Reis sent letter to Plan Commission
o "The hospital has no plans for a helicopter pad."
• May 15, 2001 BZA Hearing did not hear the words"specialty heart hospital", "national heart hospital'; heard
"chest pain center"
o Specifically this would not be emergency room treatment center
o Nothing changed except desires/wants of Heart Hospital
Page 8 of 16
Carmel Board of Zoning Appeals
September 22,2014 Meeting
• Important for legal standards of specific Findings of Fact
• Since inception in 2001, hospital has had access to both Conseco/Irsay Helipad and Clarion Helipad
o 2008 packet stated access to Clarian/IU Health Helipad
o Not heard any indication of obstacles, denials, conflicts or problems using the use two helipads concentric
to location of Heart Hospital
• Heart Hospital location chosen knowing Overlay District,FAA Rules and Regulations and
residential developments
• Similar arguments in 2008
o 2008 Findings of Fact generally apply to same contentions being made tonight
o In 2008, 120 homes within 1500 feet
• Homes within 1117 feet and 1600-1700 feet
• Surrounding area has changed considerably
• On website St.Vincent's markets itself as being able to immediately transfer patient by ambulance or helicopter
to a St. Vincent Heart Center facility
o Not designating difference between 86th Street and 106"' Street
• 86th Street has helipad and world class care
• Ownership may be different
• Profit or non-profit status may be different
• Cardiac catheterization procedures at both 106`h Street and 86th Street campuses
• Noise measure did not state if one or two engine helicopters
o Sound tests were replicated
o Did not hear ascent and descent of helicopters
o 229 trips are 458 noise events
o Heart Hospital at approximately 50%capacity
• Would surmise more trips with closer helipad
• Construction on US 31 is temporary
o Travel times will be shorter very soon
o In order to transport a patient, they must be stabilized
o One to two minutes or three to four minutes is not life-sustaining for most patients
• Very modest amount of time in terms of transportation
• No one mentioned how INDOT views the flyovers
• Development Standard Variances are based on peculiarity of site
o If noted by FAA, may be noted by INDOT
o Noted by residents who adjoin on Springmill Road
• Since 2008 incidents of accidents have not changed
o Accidents with air evacuation helicopters is much great than with fixed-wing aircraft
• 2008 Findings of Fact stated:
o No-fly zones were difficult to enforce,particularly in inclement weather
• Flight paths vary; pilots have ability to vary from prescribed flight paths for safety reasons
• Weather conditions can affect flight paths with fixed-wing and with helicopters
o No evidence presented tonight that adjacent properties would not suffer substantially adverse decline in
value
• Homeowners would say that the sound level being no different between sitting in your living
room and a helicopter departing within 1000 feet of your residence was not a credible sound
measurement
o Board found helipads were not a natural condition of subject property and there were two helipads within
close proximity which can be available for applicant's use
• No evidence presented that it has created any hardship
o Strict application of Ordinance does not constitute any hardship
• Applicant has operated with use of one nearby helipad and functioned successfully
• Gone from chest pain center to nationally recognized heart hospital
o To protect the development, regional limitations on regional commercial employment centers are
necessary
Page 9 of 16
Carmel Board of Zoning Appeals
September 22,2014 Meeting
• Denial of variance is reasonable limitation when there are two helipads available to applicant
• Those conditions persist today
• Question of wants, not needs
o Patients, citizens of Indiana, are served well by the Heart Hospital
o Want could have been considered in 2000 before representation of chest pain center
o Need could have been considered in location selected
Tom Kegley,President, Reserve at Springmill Section 1 HOA
• Part of remonstrance in 2008 at proposed helipad location
• Lives in home in line-of-sight with proposed helipad
o .Sound tests conducted were not representative of sound helicopters actually make
• Especially on ascent and descent
• Helicopters fly over his house all the time
• Louder than soft music in living room
o Significant issue with close proximity to ramp going onto westbound I-465
• Physical location of helipad is approximately 100 feet from ramp
• Major distraction to car and truck drivers on ramp when helicopter suddenly drops right over their
vehicle
o Two functional helipads today within two miles or less; third not needed
Judy Fox,resident Reserve 1
• Working in medical field specializing in cardiac, stroke and diabetes treatment for 25 years
o Slowing or preventing duplication of expensive medical facilities and services is responsibility of urban
and community planners
o Physicians view medical outcomes seriously and are trained to practice evidence-based medicine
• To her knowledge has never been outcome data supporting risk-benefit or superiority of air
transport over ground transport for distances under 150 miles
• August 20 HOA meeting
o St. Vincent requesting helipad to eliminate potential impediments to delivering quality patient care
o The real time consumer is distance of hospital originating transfer, not the 1.5 miles distance from
Banker's Life helipad to emergency room
• Would like to examine St. Vincent's need to eliminate impediments to delivering quality patient care and why this
does not support additional helipad
o National PCI(Percutaneous Coronary Intervention) standard for door to reperfusion time(arriving at the
ER and having artery access in the cardiac catheterization lab) is 90 minutes
o Latest data in 2011 for Heart Center was 55 minutes for reperfusion
• Method of transport did not impact door to reperfusion times
o Data points to excellent care being provided
o Location of existing helipad did not negatively impact outcomes
• Heart Center licensed for 107 beds with budgeted census is 56 patients
o More hospitals perfouniing PCIs
o Heart Center would market this new helipad to out-lying facilities and transfer patients to increase
occupancy rate
o Gives appearance putting profit ahead of reason
o Clear duplication with no substantiated unmet need
• When air transport is required, it could be handled by 86"' Street facility and a number of other hospitals
o In true emergency, hospital ownership should not factor into selection of site for treatment
• If Heart Center believes it needs 100%control over use of helipad,they could offer to purchase the site from Mr.
James Irsay with assurance he would have use unless medical emergency en route
o Would provide control and reduce duplication of unnecessary services which are taking toll on our health
care system
Page 10 of 16
Carmel Board of Zoning Appeals
September 22,2014 Meeting
David Fronek,Reserve 2, serves on Board of Directors
• Attended 2001 and 2008 meetings
• Built home in 1998 and knew it was mixture of business and residential communities
o At that time,no one envisioned a helipad being that close to residences
o Seen critical care heart hospital become full-fledged emergency heart hospital with marketing directed to
areas outside our general community
• How do we know they will not be back asking for request to become commercial pad for others, including private
use by physicians?
• Not sure tree buffer is on their land and controlled by hospital
Jim Morey
• One of sites for St. Vincent placed microphone
• Served as voluntary trustee of various entities in community health network for over 20 years
o Board member, vice chair and chairman of board of community hospitals, first chairman of board of the
network and continues as trustee
o Served as one of two independent board members of the Heart Hospital
• Negotiated with cardiologists to form Indiana Heart Hospital
o Seen lots of changes in health care
• All well-intentioned, some good and a lot not so good because they neither improved quality of
care patients receive nor cost they are forced to pay
• Both cardiology procedures and reimbursement are trending downward
• If he were a cardiologist and owner of a for-profit hospital like the Heart Center, he would prefer
to do his surgeries in a facility where he received dividend if hospital made money
• 70/30 % split Mr. Dye indicated for procedures
• Who wants to get paid once if they can get paid twice?
• Abundance of high quality heart programs in Central Indiana in all four major networks
• Access to quality care not an issue
• If all hospitals concerned about patient care,helicopter would land at closest facility; not
a reality we are likely to see
• Greatly concerned about reduction in value of his property if helipad 1200 feet from his bedroom
o Geico shift changes clog Illinois Street, so ambulances will need sirens
o None of the sound tests measured sirens in his neighborhood
Rebuttal:
Andy Buroker
• Have met with different neighbors and appreciate their concern and interest
• Clarian/IU North pad has not been offered for use
o Not sure of cost to use competitor's pad
o Not advertised for rent or general public use
• Always been emergency room heart hospital
o Must have emergency room to qualify as hospital
• FAA not concerned about safety at proposed site
o Given preliminary approval of 135 degree angled area
o Have done 3D drawings of ascents and descents from area
o 1NDOT has not expressed concern about safety
• Heart Hospital not currently flying helicopters going over homes in the Reserve
o Their fly area will not include area over the homes
• Dramatic differences from 2001 and 2008
o Illinois Street four lanes
o Springmill busier
o US 31 will be limited access interstate with two very tall flyovers and more traffic
o This parcel is buffered by interstates, commercial office buildings and tree line
• They do not own west side tree line and cannot cut down those trees
Page 11 of 16
Carmel Board of Zoning Appeals
September 22,2014 Meeting
• Shrub trees and trees to south in flight area can been removed
• This is not a policy about health care or competing health care systems in the community
o It is availability of a parcel that Petitioner regards as more favorable,beneficial and safer for patients
• Three exits off US 31 are being closed
• Will be more difficult to get to hospital
• Landscape, infrastructure and development of surface area has dramatically changed
since 2001 and 2008
o Geico changes shifts every half hour over 12 hours of the day
• Do not have three major shift changes at the call center
• They could not do it with traffic loading and unloading with that many workers
• Talked with them about their traffic needs
• Request Findings of Fact be adopted and incorporated into record
Public Hearing closed
Department Report:
Alexia Lopez
• Several considerations must be weighed
o Time-saving factor with helipad in close proximity to treatment center
• Get patient as expeditiously as possible to treatment
• Proposed helipad would accomplish this more effectively than current helipad/ambulance
trip now utilized
o Potential impact of use on surrounding properties
• 2008 request for helipad was a different location(denied)
• Further north and in close proximity to residential properties
• Current site further away from residential properties
• Should be a good location
o Screened by office use to west
o 1-465 to south
o US 31 to east
o Parking lot and hotel to north
• 1117 feet away from nearest residential property line
• Based on sound studies,the loudest test came back at 60 dBA at nearest residential property
• Equivalent to living room with music or television playing quietly
• Proposed flight paths from northeast and southeast
o Neither flight path crosses residential areas northwest of helipad
• Due to right-of-way acquisition for US 31 project,parcel has been reduced in size
o Cannot meet 5 acre minimum requirement of Overlay
• Landscaping requirements not able to be met due to vertical clearance requirements for helicopters
o No trees able to be preserved onsite
o Requesting to reduce number of new trees planted to avoid interference with helicopters
o Helicopter landing facility will be screen by fence and dense shrubbery around site and low plant material
in 30-foot greenbelt
• Visual impact and ground noise will be limited by nature of location of site
o Near busy highway, interstate and tucked out of sight behind existing office developments
o Visual impact also lessened by landscaping around pad
• 229 helicopter transports to St. Vincent Heart Hospital in 2013
o Flights would likely continue to number less than one per day on average
o Sound from helicopters will be low at nearest residential lots
Department recommended favorable consideration of proposed project
Page 12 of 16
Carmel Board of Zoning Appeals
September 22,2014 Meeting
•
Discussion:
• Hospital contracts with StatFlight,with five facilities around Indiana
o Not available for public use, exclusive to hospital
o Helicopters will not be housed,parked or fueled at this site
o Used to get patients to hospital sooner
• Better serve hospitals in system without cardiac care unit
o Patients could be brought from hospital not in system
• Outside helicopter would be given permission to land(Lifeline helicopters, etc.)
• All transfers were figured in total number of flights
• Will commit to exclusive use by the Heart Center patients only
• Trees would need to be removed for flight path
o Two large trees are dead on NRC property
• Will ask them to remove for safety standpoint
o A few scrub trees and deciduous trees will be removed
o Evergreen trees will remain
Brian Gukenberger,Lead Pilot for Rushville base for StatFlight operation
• Trees on south end and east side are safety hazard for tail rotor
o When landing at unimproved spots (accident scene)they have certain protocol for first responders to set
up landing zone
o When FAA approves continuous operational helipad,need to meet their operational requirements
• Safe inbound and outbound traffic with no obstacles
• Flight path was indicated with trees to be removed
I Discussion continued:
• Helipad used for emergencies only
o Anything scheduled does not typically use an ambulance transfer
o Flights could be 24 hours per day
• Typically transferred from another emergency room across the state
• Table was referenced again with times of flights
• Less than one per week occurred during overnight hours
• This proposal heard independently of all prior agreements and amendments
o No amendments through Plan Commission because it is not on the site of PUD
o No Commitment to not have helipad on Heart Center site
• Stated any need for a helipad would need to come back for approval
• 2008 proposal was for Heart Center site with its Commitments and Covenants
• This property not in that legal description and not subject to the Covenants
• Minimum parcel size in Overlay is 5 acres
• 302 flights in 2012
o Sometimes they had to land at the Clarian helipad or City of Westfield if the Conseco/Irsay pad was down
for maintenance or someone setting on the pad
o The issue has been distance and potential for accidents and delays in making transfer from greater
distance
o Land at Clarian only in emergencies when Conseco/Irsay pad is not available—they do not have heart
care services
o Sole control over this new helipad to better serve patients
• Do not have control over Conseco/Irsay pad for maintenance and other's rights to use it
III o Very few times they have turned helicopter away
• Would not need to turn any away from their own pad
• Sound level of single engine helicopter was measured at 86th Street
o Louder than twin engine aircraft
o Stood 100 feet away at 86th Street and at proposed pad site
• Sound level coming out of sound system matched what he recorded
Page 13 of 16
Carmel Board of Zoning Appeals
September 22,2014 Meeting
Mrs.Plavchak:
• Since inception Heart Hospital has received national recognition for patient care without own heliport
o Not having own heliport has not affected ability to provide top quality patient care
• Number of trips chart looks like annual number of trips is going way down
o 302 trips in 2012; 40% less in 2013
o First eight months of 2014 has gone down again
o Increases in business would be an argument for own heliport
• Maybe result of other regional areas being able to service patients
• On BZA in 2001 and 2008 and remembered being told that this was not going to be an emergency-type care
center
o Heart catheterization center
o Remembers questions about need for heliport and they did not foresee that kind of patient care
• Maybe patient care and scope of services have changed since original idea in 2001
• Still manage to win awards without own heliport
Discussion continued:
• Doctors do not use the helipad
• Volumes are going down; cannot envision future
o Drugs have made a big difference in onset acute cardiac disease
o Do not have ability to control either helipad
• Irsays could tear it up or sell property
• Not good business to rely on competitor for helipad
• Have had reasonable amount of cooperation thus far
• To rely on them for 128 or 218 patients per year does not make sense in health care
environment
• 2008 helipad was 500+feet from residences
o Only street and parking lot between the two locations
o Now brick wall, fences behind the homes, mature trees, buildings and parking lots for buffering
o Nothing more to add to buffer sound
• Sound levels were outside above fence
• Sound levels would be lower inside residences and behind fence
• Neighborhood working with City to convert wooden fence to sound panel because of expansion
of Illinois Street
• That will help
• Existing trees provide buffer
• They could add sound wall along trees on their side of property
• Level of sound is at pad for cool down and start up; not approach and departure
o Dissipates as they climb altitude and move away from zone
o Cool down is couple minutes, transfer patient and three to four minutes before
RPMs to lift off
• Other helicopters flying in US 31 Corridor now
o Could be 30 minutes or more between descent and ascent by time patient is
moved and flight crew comes back
Rick Berger with BSA Life Structures
• Have submitted project to FAA and discussed flight path
• Have been in discussions with INDOT as far as obstruction lighting
• Based on current flight advisory circular published by FAA that defines guidelines for designing flights for
helipads(public,private, hospital helipads):
o Flight paths basically off pad elevation on take-off and landing: 8-foot horizontal to 1-foot rise(very low)
o Obligated to keep clearances over interstates,roadways, etc.
o This helipad has been located according to this flight path from roadway and right-of-way of interstate to
make sure there is required INDOT clearance for take-off and landing in either direction
Page 14 of 16
Carmel Board of Zoning Appeals
September 22,2014 Meeting
o INDOT also has aeronautical division reviewing this plan, as well as FAA and INDOT Traffic
I Discussion continued:
• Along US 31 Corridor,no available property that is conducive or in close proximity
o This made most sense in higher noise commercial zone furthest from residential areas
o Even after construction is complete, it can be challenging getting across US 31
• Want to minimize chances of accidents by being inside office park area with short drive on
Illinois to emergency room
• Do not anticipate increase in number of helicopter uses with this pad
o Trend has been going down
o Have had five bases around community for almost five years
o Concerned about not controlling pad
• Reduces errors and minimizes risks getting to Heart Center
Bob Hannen
• Used hand-held sound level meter at 86th Street
o Also made sound measurements at Conseco in Carmel of helicopter landing and taking off
• Measurements made at both existing locations of helicopter traffic
• Got excellent sound level of 95 decibels (dBA) during takeoff
• Studied frequency characteristics and reproduced same general sound with buffeting
sound added to simulate sound of helicopter landing
o Maximum sound they could have measured at 100 feet away
o Could not do actual landing to get sound that would occur during approach and
take-off
o Produced approximately 20 feet above ground surface noise with sound directed
toward homes
• Measurement at Conseco pad was twin engine with enclosed tail rudders which is quieter
• Bigger sound is with open tail rudder
• Measurement at 86th Street was single engine with open tail rudder
• Those are two types helicopters that would use helipad
o Tree line provides one or two decibels of sound reduction; leaves do not provide adequate buffer of sound
• Measured sound would be similar
• Sound transmission can also be affected by cloud cover, clear day, wind direction, etc.
• Test day was overcast which would reflect sound back down and make it travel farther
along the ground
• When he retrieved data there was a single engine airplane flying overhead which
produced more sound than the test sounds
o Those airplane passages occur throughout the day
o Vibration and windows shaking are part of sound regime
• Helicopter does produce low frequency sound which travels farther than high frequency
• Hear low frequency when helicopters are farther away, more pronounced than high frequency
from being close
• "Feel"low vibrations on body more easily than ears detect
• Sound level measurements incorporate predominantly what people normally hear and not what
they might"feel"
• Vibrations are not large enough to cause any damage, shake or rattle windows
o Decibel level could be louder(about 60-70 decibels)when helicopter is higher in air because it is above
obstructions
• Approach was slightly louder at residences because helicopter went closer to houses as it came
down US 31
• Helicopters go up and down US 31 from a variety of providers
• Data shown is short example of what they monitored continuously 24 hours a day
Page 15 of 16
Carmel Board of Zoning Appeals
September 22,2014 Meeting
• Spring Highland Drive has short duration peak as loud as Test 3 which was a car passing
by on Illinois Street
o Recorded many car passages and other sources of noise produced noises greater
than the test and greater than any fly-by measurements
Discussion continued:
• Hardship for helipad need is to bring someone from remote community for heart care
o Need control of pad/location
o Avoid accidents
o Do everything they can to minimize any risk to patients coming for care
o Great opportunity to get exclusive control over helipad at a shorter distance from hospital
o Continue to provide world-class care to patients at one of the most ranked hospitals in area
o Two miles can be long way through traffic,roundabouts, and over interstate at 111th, 116th or 106th Street
• Will have more traffic and congestion with elimination of access points (103`d Street)
Motion: On a motion made by Alan Potasnik and seconded by Madeleine Torres:
Docket Nos. 14070012 UV, 14070013 V through 14070016 V,St.Vincent Heart Center Helipad,be approved.
Docket No. 14070012 UV,MOTION DENIED 2-3 (Hawkins,Plavchak,Torres opposed)
Docket Nos. 14070013 V through 14070016 V,MOTION APPROVED 3-2 (Plavchak,Torres opposed)
Motion: On a motion made James Hawkins and seconded by Alan Potasnik:
Mr.Molitor prepare the Findings of Fact with the authority to work with the attorney for the
remonstrators.
MOTION CARRIED UNANIMOUSLY
•
7-10. TABLED TO TUESDAY, OCTOBER 28''' (V) Wendy's Remodel Signage.
I
The applicant seeks the following variances for new and existing signs:
Docket No. 14080008 V ZO CH 25.07.02-03.b: Number of Signs, 2 allowed,3 requested
Docket No. 14080009 V ZO CH 25.07.02-03.c.4.a: Maximum Sign area
Docket No. 14080010 V ZO CH 25.07.02-06.c: 30 sq.ft.Max Sign Area for Menu Board.
Docket No. 14080011 V ZO CH 25.07.02-06.d: 6 ft Max Height for Menu Board
The site is located at 2370 E. 116th St. It is zoned B-8/Business.Filed by Don Fisher of Insight Engineering, Inc.
Adjournment:
Motion: On a motion made by Madeleine Torres and seconded by Earlene Plavchak:
The Meeting be adjourned.
MOTION CARRIED UNANIMOUSLY
The meeting adjourned at 8:13 p.m.
Approved this Wihday of (52Cyh' V 20/q.
/ \
illi'f.ii/ I 20_74....9e:_e_.) .... --/ec...c ,
Pr—sent–James Hawkins Secretary– /nnie wgley
Filename:9.22.2014 regular meeting.doc
Page 16 of 16