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HomeMy WebLinkAboutMinutes 01-6-15 Subdivision MeetingOf CA9A9 ..C:ity of i.-,armel �NDIANi " Carmel Plan Commission SUBDIVISION COMAUTTEE January 6, 2015 . Meeting LOCATION: CAUCUS ROOMS TIME: 6 :00 P.M. CARMEL CITY HALL, 2ND FLR (DOORS OPEN AT 5:30 P.M.) ONE CIVIC SQUARE CARMEL, IN 46032 Members Present: Brad. Grabow, John Adams, Nick Kestner, Joshua Kirsh and Dennis Lockwood Staff Present: Alexia Lopez Planning Administrator, Mike Hollibaugh Planning Director, Maggie Crediford Recording Secretary Legal Counsel: John Molitor Call to Order: Brad Grabow 6:00 pm The Subdivision Committee met to consider the following item: 1. Docket No. 14100008 Z: 321 W. Main Street. Rezone. The applicant seeks approval to rezone two parcels (totaling 0.33 acres) from R -2 /Residential to B -5/ Business. The site is located 321 W. Main Street. It is currently zoned R -2 and lies within Old Town Overlay Character Subarea. Filed by Ms. Soori Ardalan. Brad Grabow: • If you would pleasecatch us up on what has progressed since that last meeting before the full Plan Commission. • Discussions with neighbors, changes in plans? Soori Ardalan: • No, I have talked with them and told them what my plan is • No one had any objection or anything • I am still looking forward to proceed with the same plan I had before WWW.Cf1RN ELDOCS.COM 1 CIVIC SQ., CAR1vIEL, IN. 46032 317- 571 -2417 Carmel Plan Commission Subdivision Committee Meeting 1 -6 -2015 Staff Report: Alexia Lopez • When considering the rezone, it will remain in the Old Town Overlay sub-area so it will still have some of those restrictions placed on it such as the form of the building and the design • Even if they rezone to business the overlay will help keep the character of the area in tact • The Plan Commission would need to approve any future development plan • Remaining review comments • If it were approved we would want the condition that they close the driveway cut off of Main Street since it is so close to the roundabout there • Utilize the driveway cut only off of 3rd avenue • It is not a contributing building • There are existing power lines that run across the property and would restrict the building height • There is commercial across the street • Have not heard any neighbor remonstrance • This is the goal long term • We are in favor of it and recommend favorable consideration back to the full plan commission John Adams: • Great Plan, something we would like to see but have to apologize because I have a hang up, I think it's a bad idea to rezone individual properties • It sets a precedent that is contrary to what we want with zoning • Typically zoning encompasses a district, and area • If we start rezoning individual properties then you have to question why you even have zoning • 1 am caught here between a great idea but I am hung up on zoning one individual property • That is a problem for me Nick Kestner: • I have trouble spot zoning on this because this is such a fragile area between Old Town and a residential area that I hope we can keep • Not knowing what is going in there is like giving you a blank check • What is the difference between R -2 and B -5 • Which of the B -5 items do you want to have that you cannot get-in R -2? • Soori: In R -2 I cannot have any kind of shop • Want the same situation that is across the street • Want you to be, able to live upstairs and run your business downstairs • Cake shop and Music school are doing that now • I am very conscientious about who I will bring to the District because we are invested in the area and so far have brought eight businesses • All of them are something that have added glory to the District • Beauty, yoga place, antiques, hair salon and an investor • It will be much prettier and much better than what it is now • It states in the plan under Old Town that it can be zoned individual, it does not have to be the whole block VAV\V.CARMELDOCS.COM 1 CIVIC SQ., CARMEL, IN. 46032 317 -571- 2417 1 Carmel Plan Commission Subdivision Committee Meeting 1 -6 -2015 o My goal is to gradually convince other owners to come with me, rezone and do something commercially or if not, we are willing to purchase it. • One of them with two lots is thinking about it • The other one refused, price he gave was too high 1 million dollars for .16 acres • Maybe he has a plan himself and is waiting for someone else to step up and he will join in later • It will be much better than it is right now • No way will I just do another residential there, not after the money I have put in • What was brought to our attention is exactly what we want to do. We do not want entry from Main street • We want entry from 3rd avenue • It will be easier to get in and out • It is not easy to get in and out on Main Street 0 • What is the limit story wise in Old Town? o Alexia: This is in the Character Sub -area and the limit is around 30' but can be taller based on the average heights next to it • So right now they can't go above 30' o I think they can go 7' higher than what is around it basically Soori: • Are you familiar with the construction builder that builds right across the street from it • It will be the same version Nick Kestner: ® That actually concerns me ® I think that is a little -too, high to step down to the residential ® Is there some way to limit it to two story so you have a step down to residential ® But I can't go with something like the Lurie Building there o It would be not transitional at all • Soori: why • There is a street between this section and the residential area • Eventually this whole area will become commercial • We don't know that right now, because we are dealing with one spot ® If you were coming . in with a Master Plan that -would be different ® Right now we are dealing with one individual and what they can do Joshua Kirsh: ® I share a lot of the sentiments that Nick and John have expressed as far as creating a mosaic ® One thing we do not like in Carmel is mosaics, we like things to fit in conformity ® Having said that, this is what we are always talking about and are constantly thrust into this dynamic situation of trying to bridge the gaps 0 I have a tough time sitting here saying yes or no one way or the other • We need to take a step back and realize we are bridging that gaps and maybe one street over VAMCARMELDOCS.COM 1 CIVIC SQ., CARMEL, IN. 46032 317 -571- 2417 Carmel Plan Commission Subdivision Committee Meeting 1 -6 -2015 houses are still ranch style houses • And then we move over to Bazboux which is a three or four story building ® We have to push the envelope in these two blocks 9 I am going to ask you to speculate 9 In this map the .16 lot do they have any interest in going along with you, or no interest in going along with you o Soori: There is an attorney that owns it, I have contacted him for purchasing, but not contacted him just about coming along on a rezone ® The map actually shows a house the next block over just west of Third, that house does not exist anymore does it o Soori: No, that one was a chiropractor, that house is gone • Do we know what is going in there • Soori: When I had my art gallery in Zionsville, the owner of that location had approached me to rent from him in Carmel • I told him that if I would move to Carmel, I would own my location not pay high rent • He said he was going to break the ground, even before the Lurie building, and he was going to finish it before that building • But there has been no progress • He has gradually bought every house except one Mike Hollibaugh: • With the exception of one lot it is all owned by one partnership except for one • The southwest piece in that block • The elderly wife just passed away • Jim Davis, he was a fireman with the City for a number of years, that is his parents' .home • Though it is in flux at this time, we have had one meeting and are about to have another about what the next step for all of that real estate is, it is inching forward and I think we will see something filed this year John Adams: • Let me ask those of you from the City then, is this something you would like to see done • Do you want this done • Mike: it is inside the arch, the area inside the arch is really is to be commercial mixed -use • Not unlike what Soori is proposing • But I think the point of it being one small piece, a spot zone is unusual for us to do • Fundamentally we are all in • Realistically what options do we have short of spot rezoning • Can re rezone the whole block • If we had a Council that we could count on we could rezone the whole block • We can try Joshua Kirsh: ® The people just to your west, I happen to know them • Soori: She has no interest to move • She does not mind at all that we want to develop • She loves the area and being able to walk to shops WWW.CARMELDOCS.COM 1 CIVIC SQ., CARMEL, IN. 46032 317 -571- 2417 Carmel Plan Commission Subdivision Committee Meeting 1 -6 -2015 Brad Grabow: • We talked about at full plan commission that even if the owners on the block agreed to and pursued the rezone as you are proposing that they could remain there for the rest of their lives • Their lives would be unaffected other than construction done on your property • They could continue in residential uses as long as they own the property • Has that message been reinforced to them, do they understand that • Soori: Yes,. the lady who owns a house and a lot • The lot is on 4t4 ave • She has inherited. it; she does not live there, the house is vacant • The gentleman. the attorney that owns the .16 acre has rented it • Mine is L shaped it comes to 3rd Avenue Dennis Lockwood: ® The .2 acre piece that we have not accounted for, have you talked to them • Soori: I asked her what ;her feeling about selling the property is and she said are you willing to give me 400. grand, and I said no • Before we even put an, offer on the property we went to the neighbors to get a feeling for how they would feel about what we are doing, I would not have bought it if we could not change it Joshua Kirsh: • Do we have the option of rezoning the whole block without the other neighbors Brad Grabow: ® An involuntary rezone, but who enacts that? The Council and to cram something down a property owners throat one would argue it's taking and one would argue it's bullying so politically its success at the Council is far from certain • I think we all support your objective it's the means that we are trying to get comfortable with. Have you considered the variance approach as opposed to the rezone Alexia Lopez: • We discussed that in the beginning but the issue with that is we don't know what is going in there and we would need a specific use to go for a variance Dennis Lockwood: • If it.remains under the R -2 there are limitations on what Special Uses could be accepted there which may not align with what she would like to develop Alexia Lopez: • Right now anything other than residential she would need a use variance for or a rezone • A rezone allows for a bunch of different uses or options whereas a use variance allows for a specific option and she would have to choose a specific use for the property Joshua Kirsh: • I feel this conversation. has come full circle Brad Grabow: • Unless we gave Development Standards Waivers now to allow something to be built for a yet to be determined tenant then file for a variance when a tenant is known Joshua Kirsh: WWW CARMELDOCS.COM 1 CIVIC SQ., C.ARMEL, IN. 46032 317-571 - 2417 Carmel Plan Commission Subdivision Committee Meeting 1 -6 -2015 • I think we need to rezone the individual lot Dennis Lockwood • It may be impetus to rezone the entire block • Since one has started the others may fall in tow • Did I understand you to say that the property owners were not objecting to rezoning, or were they not objecting to rezoning on your property o Soori: Rezoning on my property • Did you discuss with them doing a corporate rezone of the entire block o I did not Joshua Kirsh: • That sounds really scary to a homeowner I bet • Carmel is coming and taking my land Dennis Lockwood: • But she is a private individual Joshua Kirsh: • I get it I am speaking irrationally (from that point of view) Brad Grabow • But one is voluntary and getting them to sign on • The other is involuntary Joshua Kirsh: • I like it either way, but will go with the crew on this one Dennis Lockwood: • My question is at what point, like-the adjacent block is in the hands of one entity with the exception of one lot, is that acceptable to rezone or is that too small • At what point because we have seen projects coming in in this area along the Monon, how small is that o Midtown is 30 acres • At what point do we decide what is too large or too small to rezone • From the owners point of view if the owner wants to develop the property at what point do we say we don't want you to do that to the extent that we are not going to allow the rezone Joshua Kirsh: • I specifically like getting behind someone who has brought 7 or 8 businesses to Carmel Dennis Lockwood: • There is experience that is being brought to the table here, that's another thing • Maybe in this block once that lot is rezoned maybe the neighbors will say John Adams: • I think it is a big "what if' with City Council • I think there is more of a chance of getting a spot rezone approved than taking over someone's land Brad Grabow: • Unless they all join in the petition and expand it to include their properties Joshua Kisrh: • Can we send it up as a spot rezone as we are just rezoning these two parcels WWW.CARN ELDOCS.COM 1 CIVIC SQ., CARIVIEL, IN. 46032 317 -571- 2417 Carmel Plan Commission Subdivision Committee Meeting 1 -6 -2015 • With the recommendation that this block and the neighboring block to the east be voluntary rezoned by the owners • Give them two options Brad Grabow: • You can I think it is a toothless, recommendation • I thought you were going to say to include the block Joshua Kirsh: • I am trying to do whatever to.get them down the road • This is not something we should be spending a lot of money on • Trying to figure out a way to. get it through Council Brad Grabow Especially when there is a viable fall back which is Development Standards Waivers What we are saying is we:are not ultimately the decision makers on your rezone petition the Council is, and our concerns about a spot or isolated rezone add some risk to you pursuing the rezone and say you are successful at the Plan Commission but fail at Council The next step would be to come back with a plan for the building and ask for waivers and a use variance if needed you also go before the BZA to get approval for use • Soori: I don't want to go for a variance. • We did that for my gallery and thank God the Mayor carne to my rescue • Every time you. have a tenant you have to come and change it • You never know how long a tenant will stay and then you have to go back for each different use Brad Grabow: That is a very powerful argument to offset anyone's concerns regarding the spot rezone here The Council is pro - growth, pro- business in the Arts and Design. District I think that would be a powerful argument in your favor Soori: • In the history of me and my husband for the past 6 years since the Art District has started • I was one of the first galleries that opened there • I have brought not only for myself • Right now I have 8 good tenants • For otherpeople too anybody that want something the Chamber says go and talk to Soori she can help you out • If they see what I have in mind and what I am going to do for the district they will be pleased • That block does not need to be rezoned as a whole • By -laws indicate that you can rezone lot by lot which this one happens to be two lots • I am sure we are not going to disappoint the Art District • It is going to be much better than it is right now Joshua Kirsh: • What is your time frame • If your time frame was a little far out like not in the next six months • That might give the Department a little bit of a chance to catch up WWW CARN ELDOCS.COM 1 CIVIC SQ., CARMEL, IN. 46032 317 -571- 2417 Carmel Plan Commission Subdivision Committee Meeting 1 -6 -2015 • Maybe get the whole block on board • Give us the opportunity to do this the right way Soori: • We have to put the finance part of.it together • You have to go through architect and permitting • It will take a lot of time • Next step is to approach the lady that has two lots and approach her one more time • I was giving her enough time because she said she was going to rent it but nothing has happened yet • Plan is to build it in a way so that we can add to it without it looking odd • A year to a year and a half Dennis Lockwood: • The timeline sounds as if you are going to start the process rather quickly to get designs drawn up and get the financing in place • That process is going to take a year to 18 months to decide • We don't want to suggest something that will hold them up Josuha Kirsh: • It would be a win if we could get all these people to agree voluntarily John Adams • Just wondering to get there finance package won't they have to have assurance that it is going to get rezoned Josua Kirsh: • The fallback would be if the neighbors don't get on board we would rezone it individually • Maybe I am putting it out there Brad Grabow: • You're not going to design a B -5 building before you know you can put one there Nick Kestner: • Mike, what time frame do you think it would take the Department to contact the people in the block • 60 -90 days • What kind of a delay are we talking about Mike Hollibaugh: • We can start on it pretty quickly • The Mayor has Adrienne working on a couple of things that are a priority for him • We could start and circle back with the commission and let you know where we are on this next month or at the next full meeting Joshua Kirsh: Can we table this conversation until next month or the next Subdivision Committee meeting So that we can have some sort of outlook If it looks like people are not coming around we could go ahead with the individual zone 1 VAVW.CARMELDOCS.COM 1 CIVIC SQ., CARMEL, IN. 46032 317 -571- 2417 Carmel Plan Commission Subdivision Committee Meeting 1 -6 -2015 Brad Grabow: • Why not go ahead with the individual zone and contact the neighbors • Do both Motion: Joshua Kirsh makes a motion to send a favorable recommendation of approval to the full plan commission with the one condition of the close off of the Main Street entrance. Motion Seconded by Dennis Lockwood. Motion Carries 4 -1 Nick Kestner opposed Motion: Joshua Kirsh makes a motion to reelect Brad Grabow as the Chairman of the Subdivision Committee. Seconded by Nick Kestner Motion Carries: 5 -0 Meeting Adjourned at 6:36 pm /i" I cz \--", /' Brad Grabow hainnan /271� OA,^� /-\ Aj\-j Maggie Crediford Recording Secretary VAMCARMELDOCS.COM 1 CIVIC SQ., C.ARIVIEL, IN. 46032 317 -571- 2417