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HomeMy WebLinkAboutMinutes Sub 02-10-15'00 e DAq Cityr ot Carmel �aR[ \t'Rfii�n!\ Carmel Plan Commission SURD= IVISION COMMITTEE February 10, 2015 Meeting MINUTES LOCATION: CAUCUS ROOMS TIME: 6:00 P.M. CARMEL CITY HALL, 2ND FLR (DOORS OPEN AT 5:30 P.M.) ONE CIVIC1 SQUARE CARMEL, IN 46032 Present: Brad Grabow, Michael Casati, Tim Moehl, Dennis Lockwood Absent: Joshua Kirsh Staff Present: Alexia Lopez Planning.Administrator Rachel Keesling Planning Administrator Maggie Crediford Recording Secretary Legal Counsel: John Molitor The Subdivision Committee will meet to consider the following item: Docket No. 14110006 DP /ADLS: Green House Cottages of Carmel. The applicant seeks site plan and design approval, for 6 skilled nursing cottage homes and 1 administration building, The site is located at 140 and 130 E. 126th Street, on 4.61 acres. It is zoned Green House Cottages of Carmel PUD /Planned Unit Development (Z- 594 -14). Filed by Andrew Greenwood of Green House Cottages of Carmel, LLC. Presenter: Ju' stid Moffitt Green House Cottages of Carmel, LLC. ® Thank you for accommodating the schedule change last week. We really appreciate it. • The packet that was submitted really reflected the PUD requirements and in our public hearing a few weeks ago we shared what we believe were the minor adjustments from the initial filing due to the state requirements. Predominately this elevation (referring to an exhibit from the packet) which is the side elevation because of light needing to get into the core of the building. O I believe it was Mr. Lockwood who had comments about _preferring- that the dormers were actually true dormers not false dormers as far as light into the living spaces. C The comments at the meeting were dominated by congestion on .126th street. ® It is in our opinion that ship had sailed after the first round with the PUD approval we had that debate and Council assured us that it was on them to bear. And they are debating right now on whether or not to remove that stop sign. WWW.CARN ELDOCS.COM 1 CIVIC SQ., CARMEL, IN. 46032 317 -571 -2417 February 10, 2015 Minutes Carmel Plan Commission Subd.. Committee • With that, I will answer any questions you have for us. • We have worked with staff to address everything and Rachel can probably speak to any gaps that she sees. Alexia Lopez: • They have addressed all of our comments since the Plan Commission meeting and there were some on the new Department Report concerning landscaping. The landscape plans have now been approved so those have all been addressed. We would recommend approval this evening. Brad Grabow: Before we open it up to plan commission discussion a couple of my notes that were made at the public hearing. Josh asked about rain gardens and bio swales and I think you responded at the public hearing about that. The locations tended to be along or at the ends of the on street parking the bump outs if you will. I think you responded to. his satisfaction. That Tuesday night Sue asked, and I don't have an answer here so I apologize if you already addressed this at the public hearing. She asked where she could find the commitment to keep the shift changes off the peak traffic hours. Compared to rush hour. Andrew Greenwood: • I think staff responded to that, in our original PUD filing that we had language in there that stated with our parking plan which is part of our recorded PUD that we would do our best to adjust our times so that we didn't impact the rush hour flow. Brad: • That's fine Andrew; I just didn't have that response in my notes. Andrew: • Rachel had brought that up and I want to clarify that it was not a part of the text of the ordinance; it was in the exhibit where we spoke about the parking. • We had a Parking Summery. Alexia: Are you talking about this at the end? Where it talks about the shift times? Andrew: Yes, it was part of the exhibit that was put forward with the PUD where we had agreed to work our best to have our shift changes be prior to the 8 :00 a.m. Rush and Prior to the afternoon rush hour. Based on the conversations we have had with the Engineering staff and others on that drive, the issue is predominately one way oriented both in the morning and in the evening. So we should be able to avoid that with what we are planning on doing. Brad: ® Lexie, you are comfortable with the format and how that commitment is not part of the PUD text, it is still in a document that will not get lost in the shuffle so to speak? WWW.CARMELDOCS.COM 1 CIVIC SQ, CARMEL, IN. 46032 317 - 571 -2417 February 10, 2015 Minutes Carmel Plan Commission Subd. Committee Alexia: • This is our copy that we have so it includes all the exhibits, I am not sure that it is specifically mentioned as an exhibit in the PUD. Justin: • I guess I - would further qualify that when it was brought up at the hearing. We were not prepared nor would we have made an additional commitment post PUD approval at the Plan Commission level. That we are going to lock in specific times for the shift changes. • It is to our advantage to not have shift changes at the rush hour times. • That is the business model here, but it would not have resulted in an additional commitment. • Most of us have probably been paying attention to our stop sign discussion and we studied it as well. • If the stop sign isn't there the rush hour back up is a non - issue.. There is no wait. • There is no one on the side streets. waiting to turn out, it is all 126th street traffic. • I think a lot of this goes ..away if the City resolves this issue. • We are sticking with the suggested text here that that is the goal. Brad: • That's fine, if it has been mischaracterized as a Commitment then I am much less concerned about which piece of paper it is on and where that piece of paper ends up in a file. Committee Discussion Dennis Lockwood: • My concern at the plan commission meeting was the street trees and the apparent density. • I realize that you have a, set of approved plans now from the forester. • I just considering that fact that you are on that curve and the issues at.126th St. • I am thinking we have some sort of guideline at a curb cut that we have some sort of triangular visual area that has to remain open or clear. And I just see a couple of trees here that appear to be in that site triangle. Justin: • I am not in disagreement where you are going with this. • It is always this conversation we get into about conflicting requirements with different departments. • It's hard to satisfy multiple bodies that don't sit down in a room together. Dennis: • Well and unfortunately the departments that are making recommendations back to you aren't sitting here at this table to help us understand their logic in asking for these things. Justin: Now I can' tell you that not specific to this we have had the conversation with the department of WWW.CARMELDOCS.COM 1 QVIC SQ., CARMEL, IN. 46032 317 - 571 -2417 February 10, 2015 Minutes Carmel Plan Commission Subd. Committee engineering this is something we frequently address on curve radiuses in subdivision where if there is a concern they will note an area and say we don't want to see trees in these areas. • Though they have not brought anything to our attention here. Dennis: • And this is the catch 22 because you have set of approved landscape drawings now and in my opinion I think there is still a concern for some potential safety issues. • I would be much more comfortable if two of those trees adjacent to the curbs were eliminated so you have better site distance. Justin: • Those are easy to adjust. It is just about spacing. Dennis: • Maybe you could pull those back a little. Brad: • So keep the same trees but space them on center for a shorter length so that they are not as near that access. Andrew: • In working with the forester het said you have to have X amount of feet between them, we literally just had this conversation last week. • We have worked hard to get him to approve it. Justin: • Darren is often trying to meet a requirement that he feels he is obligated to. • John if we have a landscape plan that Darren says meets Ordinance requirement and they say we are ok with it buy you remove these two trees can they trump it and say this is how we are approving it? John Molitor: • No it has to conform to the standard that is in the Ordinance. But I don't think it's irrational. I mean you don't want to read it to be irrational. You don't want to plant a tree in a space that is going to prevent people from being able to see to get in or out. Alexia: • Do you know what the spacing is there? On the Ordinance says street trees; large growing street trees should be planted from the public right of way parallel to each street. • Shall be planted a min of 25' and a max of 40' on center. • They are not required to be evenly placed. Michael Casati • What kind of trees are these? Do we know? • They have to be deciduous trees of the Carmel Street tree variety. • Large Growth WWW.CARMELDOCS.COM 1 CIVIC SQ., CARMEL, IN. 46032 317 -571 -2417 February 10, 2015 Minutes Carmel Plan Commission Subd. Committee Rachel Keesling: • The vision distance is 15' for a vision triangle. John Molitor: • It seems to me that the Committee could delegate to the staff to work something out that doesn't pose a safety hazard. • But that would still allow adequate plantings per the Ordinance. Brad: • We have a standard that says you have to put them so many feet. • We have a standard that says you can't put it within X feet of the corner. • And then we have a preference that the trees not be any closer than X feet. • So of those three it is the third one that going to have flexibility. Justin: • Our PUD says a minimum of 25' and a maximum of 40' it does not call out a quantity. • Theoretically we could change the cadence to meet the 25& 40 and move them out. Dennis: • It just seems to me that if you could get those to move out a little you are improving the site vision for those who are trying to turn out especially. Justin: • So we will move the point of beginning of the two trees along the entry cut out a minimum of 25'. • Does that sound reasonable? Alexia: • It looks like the trees are 30' from center if this is to scale. Dennis: • It is a site with a difficult street frontage because they are on that curve. • I think we are helping the matter by pulling those back. • I know that your traffic is not that heavy and you have addressed the issue of staff traffic occurring during off peak hours. • The other thing I want to discuss is I was looking at the construction documents online; these rain gardens are they basically curb wells. They are located basically on either side of the cottages. o Correct. • How deep are those, . because it appears to me that there is some sort of a vertical pipe with a cap on. it that lis 6" below the curb and then the gravel looks like it is 2' below the top of the curb or so? Is that right? Justin: W%W.CARMELDOCS.COM 1 CIVIC SQ., C.ARMEL, IN. 46032 317 - 571 -2417 February 10, 2015 Minutes Carmel Plan Commission Subd. Committee • It is all how we end up designing it with the department of Engineering. • We followed a detail they asked us to use, but we can raise or lower that, it is all structural soils • It is excavated out it is layers of sand and pea fill, the pipe functions as a stop gap, worst case scenario. Dennis: • My concern is not the rain garden, itself, it is where it is located on either side of the drive of' the cottage where some of the residence might utilize this drive to back in and out? Justin/Andrew: • Residents won't but visitors will, but not residents. • They would be using the sidewalks, and that is an equal concern. Dennis: • 1 just envision someone backing out and dropping a tire into that rain garden. Andrew: • We have tried to work with the department of engineering with that exact concern; we don't want someone in a wheel chair dropping off the side or a car getting stuck in that rain garden. Dennis: • It seems like there should be some sort of marker there at the very least. • So that people know that there is a drop off. Justin: • Where I was going with the structural soils is that it does not have to be the extreme depression that is shown in the drawings. • You can raise that gravel up higher. • The goal is structural soils not deep ravines. Dennis: • Well, I am looking at a drawing that shows it deep and I thought it was worth discussing. Justin/Andrew: • Can you show us what you are looking at? • I think it is on the original drawing. • It has been raised. Dennis: • What is the sheet number? 501. Alexia: • We spoke with Engineering and I think this is still outstanding with them and needs to be addressed. VAVW.CARMELDOCS.COM 1 CIVIC SQ., CARMEL, IN. 46032 317- 571 -2417 February 10, 2015 Minutes Carmel Plan Commission Subd. Committee Andrew: • We have addressed that. • We only have one thing outstanding with engineering. • I think that resolved this morning. • The rain garden level was raised up so that the pea gravel level up because of that very concern (the steep drop off at the curbs) • We had the pleasure of going with various people from Engineering and I believe Mike Hollibaugh went with us as well to West Lafayette to look at various rain garden options, and we were given a detail and told, here do this. • When we were looking at it our own engineers caught that drop off and said well we need to think about this because you are going to have a well and you are going to have people driving right there and no matter how good they are, and to let you know residents that we will have will not be driving. Justin: • That didn't scare me as much as the people on the sidewalks. Andrew: • The whole idea is to raise that up so we don't have those issues. • There will still be a little bit, like 6" let's say, I don't know the final number for sure, but not the foot and a half that is shown there. Dennis: • Yah, 6" you just have a curb that is basically on the same elevation on either side, that doesn't bother me. • It didn't bother me as much as when I saw that detail and saw the sidewalk or the driveway and then 18" below right beside it, it just seemed like a who thought that up kind of thing. Andrew: • The other thing that has been amended now is the plantings in there that will work better in a rain garden. • Originally we had plantings in there that were not identified as rain garden plantings. • We worked pretty hard with Daren to get things in there that not only would do well in those conditions but would also not be an obstruction. • And would,be attractive, and that is kind of the hard part. Is to balance those issues. Dennis: • My only concern was the elevation difference between the two and you have addressed that so I appreciate it.. WWW.CARMELDOCS.COM 1 CIVIC SQ., CARMEL, IN. 46032 317 - 571 -2417 February 10, 2015 Minutes Carmel Plan Commission Subd. Committee Alexia: • Are you using this as a BMP too? o Yes • So then you probably have to go by certain standards, it is not just a guide, it is a storm water quality aspect which has certain standards too right? Justin/Andrew: • Rough drains run into that. • Then the storm water, coming off the drive isles Alexia: • I think we don't normally see them in the right of way or in the space between the street and sidewalk • It's kind of innovative. Andrew: • Yes, it is based on what we saw and tried to implement. Justin:. • It seems like a lot of urban design is going that way. • Because there are no other good ways to treat storm water. Tim Moehl: • Rachel, what is the length that is allowed for a cul -de -sac in a single street subdivision? • Is it 600'? Rachel: • I think it is 600' per the Subdivision Control Ordinance, but I don't know that they have that in the PUD. Justin: • I don't believe we are quite 600', but I believe it is 600' in the Subdivision Control Ordinance. • Our longest property dimension is 664 and the center line of our cul -de -sac is about 150' back from that so I think maximum we are right at 500'. Brad: • This is purely a matter of taste so I apologize in advance but the carriage light choice in our packet seems more traditional than cottage. • I didn't have a chance to look and see what you are putting on homes is.more prairie. • You've got a lot more experience, but it looks like there is an opportunity for something that is a lot more fitting with the character of these homes than the very generic almost Lowes like fixtures that are proposed. WWW.CARMELDOCS.COM 1 QVIC SQ., CARMEL, IN. 46032 317- 571 -2417 February 10, 2015 Minutes Carmel Plan Commission Subd. Committee Justin: • I can't say that I am in love either, it's more a matter of this stage we are still doing some material selections. • We haven't done a lot of ADLS /DP for commercial projects. • If we would like to substitute a light fixture, do we have to file for an ADLS /DP Amend? Alexia: • I think minor adjustments are allowed through the director per the PUD. • I don't think that would be a big enough change to require an ADLS Amend. Justin: • We would love to be able to accommodate that request. • We set the bar low so that we could step over it. • Knowing that we have a designer from our custom home designs that is doing all of our selections. • She also does exterior lighting • What could we commit to you that we will do a slight Amend with director approval for a superior light fixture? Brad: • Locations and quantity and size conform to what is presented here but the actual fixtures themselves are subject to department final approval. We (The Committee) have final approval authority for this project. 'On a motion made by Michael Casati and Seconded by Dennis Lockwood to approve Docket No. 14110006 DP /ADLS, motion passes with a 4 -0 vote. Meeting adjourned at 6:26 p.m. Brad Gra 'ow /Chairman Maggie iford Secretary File: SUBD- 2015 -0210 Revised.doc )W WU.CARMELDOCS.COM 1 CIVIC SQ., C.ARMEL, IN. 46032 317 - 571 -2417