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Carmel Plan Commission
COMMERCIAL COMMITTEE
Tuesday, October 1, 2019 Meeting
Location: Carmel City Hall Caucus Rooms,2nd Floor, 1 Civic Square, Carmel, IN 46032
Members Present: Alan Potasnik(Committee Chairman), Joshua Kirsh, & Laura Campbell
Members Absent: John Adams
Staff Present: Rachel Keesling(Planning Administrator), Mike Hollibaugh(Director), &Nathan Chavez(Recording
Secretary& Sign Administrator)
Legal Counsel: John Molitor
Time of Meeting: 6:00 PM
The Commercial Committee met to consider the following items:
1. TABLED TO NOV. 7—Docker Nro. 119050014 DP/ D S: Avid Hotel
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first floor tenants)on 1.23 acres. The building will-be 50,286 sq. ft., 4 stories/155' tall, and will have 97+parking
icz of Nelson& Frankenbe
Saamrajya, LLC.
3. Docket No. 19060019 DP/ADLS: Franciscan Orthopedic Center of Excellence.
The applicant seeks site plan and design approval for a 4 story, 236,231 sq. ft. Orthopedic hospital, surgery
center, medical office building, and 664 space parking garage on 10.8 acres. The site is located at approximately
10800 Illinois Street. The site is zoned MC/Meridian Corridor. Filed by Marty Rosenberg of Methodist Sports.
Petitioners: Marty Rosenberg(Meridian Development), Robert Hicks(Hall Render), Bob Harmeyer(MSKTD),
Jennifer Lasch (Cripe), &Alyssa Prazeau(Context)
Bob Harmeyer:
• In the Submitted Packet(page 3)contains the outstanding issues from the Department Report,
remonstrators, and Plan Commission (Commission). They are Unified Development(UDO) Standards
which were not met, garage bicycle parking, site lighting, number of parking spaces, headlines coming
out of the garage and site, garage lighting, image, look, &feel of the garage, generator testing, and
outdoor rehab fields noise.
• There are separate tabs addressing each concern and how we have or plan on addressing them. Would you
like me to go through each item?Alan Potasnik: Yes.
• UDO standards not met(page 4): There are a few items. The accessory structure height and two primary
buildings on the site. We did not meet the zoning requirements for the site. Variances were submitted to
the Board of Zoning Appeals(BZA)and both were approved September 23rd,2019. We are now in
compliance with those requirements.
• Non-compliant signage: In the original proposal, signage was not complaint with the standards. We have
revised the submission to remove signage that was not complaint and replace with complaint signage.
Commercial Committee Minutes 10-01-19 1
Final signage has not yet been submitted because we do not know the final tenants and their branding. We
will ensure compliance during the sign permit process.
• Landscaping has not yet been approved as of the previous submission.We should have all the
landscaping plans addressed.Rachel Keesling: Let's jump to that right now.Alyssa Prazeau: I met with
the Urban Forester today to go over some landscaping. We were using the existing trees in the drainage
easement to meet the buffer requirements for the subject property and residential properties. Because the
landscaping was within the drainage easement we could not count that.Today we added plant material to
the north buffer adjacent to residential properties to increase the shade and evergreen tree counts.At 4:30
pm the Urban Forester gave his approval.Rachel Keesling: At 4:35 pm I confirmed the approval. The
Urban Forester will provide an approved landscape plan.Alan Potasnik: Does anybody have any
graphics that reflects this?I would like to see this.
• Site lighting exceeded the minimum foot-candles at the property lines. That was confusion on our part
and the lighting plan was corrected and submitted in the Packet(page 36).
• Bicycle parking(page 5): We were meeting all the UDO requirements by providing racks at the front
door of the building.In addition we included indoor bicycle parking in the parking garage within a secure
room.Pages 12-13 indicates the bicycle racks and types which will be made available.A multi-use path
runs along Illinois St. and a sidewalk connects it to the garage. It is also our intent to have service people
come out once a week to provide bike service for employees. There is a work bench provided.Marty
Rosenberg: It is a lockable secure facility as well.
• Number of parking spaces(page 6): There was concern regarding the number of parking spaces. They
exceeded the minimum number. We calculated how many parking spots are needed based on employees
and patients on a daily basis.There is nothing in the UDO that hinders us from building more.
• Automobile lighting coming out of site(page 6): Concern was raised over headlights shining out of the
site,as we have three exits along Illinois St. We worked through a few options with the Urban Forester
(page 10).The southernmost and middle exit will have additional landscaping installed on the residential
side of Illinois St. between the multi-use path and the 6-ft.to 8-ft. fence that runs along the property line.
Those would be evergreen trees to provide coverage year round.At the north entrance there is a "
raingarden with cattails and other water vegetation. We are unable to install typical landscaping on the
west side of Illinois St,but plan on installing evergreens in the median to provide the buffer.
• Garage lighting(page 6-7): Concern was raised regarding spillage of the garage lighting onto Illinois St.
and into the neighboring subdivision(Spring Mill Place). We have introduced 4 mitigation techniques:
light pole heights, light fixture selection,lighting controls, and garage screening.
o We have chosen lower light poles on the residential west side.At the line of sight one is less
likely to see those poles.
o LED lights have changed in the style and fixture types.Previously those LED elements were
flush with the bottom of the fixture providing a hot spot.The lighting itself provides a cut off and
there is no spillage. With the new fixtures the hot spot is recessed into the fixture head. Marty
Rosenberg: That is page 30-36.
o It was suggested that we provide motion sensors for the lights.There is a description of how the
lighting will be controlled,enabled and disabled via photocell.As you drive in the lights will turn
on and stay on for a short period and as motion stops the lights will turn off.There will be some
low level lighting for security purposes.
o We have discussed garage screening(page 7)a few times. We have selected materials that are
either solid or with the smallest perforations possible. The metal panel materials have the smallest
perforation and the least amount of light will bleed through. The perforation is needed,however,
for ventilation purposes. Our screening extends seven feet above the deck of the top level.No
vehicles will be seen.
• On page 15 of the Submitted Packet is the middle entrance. We have removed the proposed landscaping
in the rendering, so you can see the architecture of the building.The metal panels are mixed with the
perforated panels. The next page shows vegetation about 10 years after initial planting.You can see very
little of the top of the garage.All the plantings will be initially 6-ft.—8-ft.
• Image of the garage(page 7). There was a suggestion regarding vine materials used to screen the
materials. In our research and discussions with the Urban Forester,we found that there are very few
vining specifies that can be used in this climate.Additionally,none provide year round coverage.The one
vine species the Urban Forester recommended was a Virginia Creeper,a woody deciduous vine. Page 8 of
Commercial Committee Minutes 10-01-19 2
the Submitted Packet illustrates examples.They are invasive vines.The concern was only a few months
of green coverage will be present and during the winter months a woody vine will be present.This is not a
preferable look. We are not moving forward with the living wall at this point.Typical landscaping will be
used to screen the building.
• Generator testing(page 9): There was a question regarding when the backup generator would run through
the test cycles.As a hospital facility,generators are required to have tests run once a month. Typically
this occurs in the overnight hours between 3:00 am and 4:00 am. This provides the least amount of
disturbance to patients within the facility,but also to adjacent areas.The sound decimal levels does not
exceed 68 decibels at 33-ft.from the unit. As a comparison,this equals a 44 decibel level at the nearest
home.For reference,traffic at 45 MPH along Illinois St.have a decibel level between 60 and 70. We feel
the sound produced by the generator will not be a concern.
• Finally concern was raised over the outdoor rehabilitation fields(page 9)with noise and light generation.
Those fields are meant for collegiate and high school athletes rehabilitating from injuries to get ready for
their specific sports and perform post-injury.Those fields will not be used by teams and no games or
practices will occur on them.They are meant for evaluation of those players.Typical hours of operations
are 7:00 am to 7:00 pm.Lighting will be turned off before and after those hours.
Department Report: Rachel Keesling:
• The petitioner did a nice job of laying out all the information.They worked on many things since the last
Commercial Committee(Committee)meeting on September 3`d.The lighting plan has been updated and
is in compliance.The petitioner agreed to minimize the lighting on the garage by having sensors. Signage
has been updated and they will need to come back later for variances depending on the type of signage
their tenants want or need. Bicycle parking for the garage is detailed and approved,as far as access,with a
protected lane.The additional trees and landscaping to be installed on the west side of Illinois St.will
help protect neighbors from headlights.The shrubbery and grasses are added to the median because
plantings cannot be added west of Illinois St. across from the north entrance.
• Additional views of the garage from Illinois St.were provided.The previous submittals provided focused
on the building and the garage sits forward of the building. Bob Harmeyer: In the Submitted Packet are
views from the backyards facing the proposed development(pages 26-29). They are taken from where the
existing houses are.Marty Rosenberg: We did discuss planting those earlier to provide additional
landscaping during construction and growth during construction.Bob Harmeyer: Typically landscaping
is installed at the end of the project,but those trees will be installed at the very beginning.Jennifer
Lasch: We are coordinating installation of landscaping with John Duffy(Utilities Director)because a
water main will be installed under multi-use path along the west side of Illinois St.
• The other outstanding item is the tree preservation and tree protection fencing. In the overlaying of the
drainage easement,trees within it couldn't count towards the buffer requirements.A 30-ft. drainage
easement and 5-ft. buffer was needed.Alyssa Prazeau: A drainage easement exists on the northeast
portion of the property. A lot of the plant material is trees and underbrush. We are not touching most of it.
When we originally calculated the area,we counted that vegetation towards the buffer requirement.The
Urban Forester informed us this cannot be included,because the vegetation may be removed at any time
so the easement is clear. We have added significant number of trees for a total of 45 shade and evergreen
trees, 16 ornamental trees,and 113 shrubs.The Urban Forrester counts anything between the building and
property line as landscaping buffering. There are several utility lines and underground detention where
trees are not planted. Marty Rosenberg: The drainage easement backs up to the Meridian Suburban
subdivision. We started the rezoning process for that community. We have successfully aggregated 30 of
the 31 homes and they will reside in these homes for up to a year, free of cost,until July 2020.Rachel
Keesling: Because the Meridian Suburban subdivision is still a residential use the petitioner will need to
maintain the landscape standards as a commercial use adjacent to residential uses.Alyssa Prazeau: There
are three trees that will remain. One is a 36"maple, a 30"maple,and a large evergreen tree.We kept
what we could,where it did not conflict with utilities or other site improvements.
• At the last Committee meeting we discussed the design of the building and garage.We did not provide
them with any additional comments for them to better their architecture. We spoke about the screening of
the garage.There is screening pass the top deck,which should screen all the vehicles and lighting.
• With the removal of the vining,the only option we can think of is to provide artwork at the top of the
garage,while the plant material matures.This may pretty it up a bit.I only introduced this to the
Commercial Committee Minutes 10-01-19 3
petitioners today and we will need to work through the idea.This would not be additional signage,but
artwork to beautify the garage.Bob Harmeyer: We discussed this briefly and we could use a banner type
material with artwork of a natural look and feel. Rachel Keesling: This could be switched out over time
and wouldn't have to be very expensive.
• The Department of Community Series(Staff)recommends this go back to Commission with favorable
recommendation.
Committee Comments:
Laura Campbell:
• I am happy you scrapped the vining. I didn't think,other than a couple of months, it would look very
attractive.
• On Illinois St.,the plantings look sufficient to block the headlights. What will the process be to increase
the landscaping and block the lights, if the proposed landscaping is not sufficient?Rachel Keesling: We
would need to come together through a commitment with the petitioner that they might try something
else. Marty Rosenberg: I think we are committed to being good neighbors. If there are practical things to
do that aren't going to impede vision clearance,which has been a concern with these additional plantings.
We have gone through significant lengths to mitigate light penetration. We will certainly consider
additional means if this is not sufficient.Time also changes as well.We just need a reasonable period to
allow the trees to mature. If we plant too much at once the trees are overcrowded when they do mature.
Alyssa Prazeau: We selected two of the largest and hardiest evergreen trees available in the region. We
want to make sure the trees don't overcrowd each other and shade the other trees out.Joshua Kirsh:
Laura,the middle entrance is where we needed the most landscaping. I always hound the Urban Forester
to add more trees and he responds with"We can but do you want them to be successful?"Laura
Campbell: Alyssa made a great point.Bob Harmeyer: I would like to reiterate that this is an orthopedic
specialty hospital and although there are 24/7 patients in the facility,95%of the traffic occurs between
7:00 am and 7:00 pm. There are only 23 overnight beds. There is no emergency department.It is
essentially a medical office building.
Joshua Kirsh:
• Is there a commitment to add construction fencing around the three major trees you have identified?
Alyssa Prazeau: Yes.This is called out in the tree protection plan and follows the UDO standards.
Joshua Kirsh: I just want to make sure there are commitments and will actually occur.Alyssa Prazeau:
Because these are three key trees we added dimensions on how far we would like the fence to extend
from the property line,how much protection there is,and making sure it is put to the fullest extent.
Rachel Keesling: The Urban Forester will check on that.
• The last time I was in New York or Chicago I noticed the green construction screening was a product
with images of vines on them. When you looked at the fence it looked like actual vines. If we are looking
for an alternative that is less expensive,this is an option.Rachel Keesling: For the garage?Joshua
Kirsh: Yes,for the top section while the landscaping matures.
Alan Potasnik:
• For the median and residential landscaping maintenance on Illinois St.,whose responsibility will that be?
Alyssa Prazeau: A note was included on the plan reading,"Franciscan will be responsible for the
installation,three months' worth of maintenance,and a one year warranty."which is what is on the entire
site.After that the trees are then transferred to Cannel. Alan Potasnik: That nails it down.
• Can you look at the lighting aspect of the parking garage?The fixture will have a domed cover on the
fixture,correct?The closest pole to the residential properties will be shorter?Marty Rosenberg&Bob
Harmeyer: Correct.Alan Potasnik: You believe this will eliminate any light pollution into the
residential area?Marty Rosenberg: Additionally,the screening material on the garage will extend 4-ft.
above the concrete wall for a total of 7-ft.The 4-ft. of additional screening plus a shorter fixture will cut
most of that light pollution.Bob Harmeyer: On page 11 of the Submitted Packet is a section view of the
garage with the lighting. The grey is the concrete structure.The light fixture is as low as we could make
it.We originally thought of reducing the height further,but if a van or larger vehicle is parked nearby
then it will block all the light.The next light fixture is reduced and even if you are able to view it from
outside the garage,the recessed fixture will shield the viewer from the hot spot.
Commercial Committee Minutes 10-01-19 4
• These lights,as you pointed out,will be motion activated?Bob Harmeyer: Correct.Alan Potasnik:
Time of day or weather conditions won't have any effect on them coming on?Bob Harmeyer: Hopefully
not.Marty Rosenberg: They will be on all levels too.
• The rehabilitation fields will be used for the hospital patients only and won't be used for any kind of
Cannel school activity?Bob Harmeyer:No sports.No games.No tournaments.Marty Rosenberg:
They aren't even full fields,only partial fields to allow patients to go through natural motions for their
specific sport.Jennifer Lasch: There was only enough space to allow for 40 yards with some run-off
space to avoid running into things.
• As far as disrupting any of the residents due to construction traffic,do we need the street cleaned at the
end of the day?Marty Rosenberg: Some of the traffic will enter through the Meridian Suburban
subdivision because there is an entry onto the property from there. I don't know if we have a specific plan
for where construction vehicles will be.Jennifer Lasch: There are two construction entrances; one at the
south and north entrance.Normally there is only one,but the easement bisecting the property forces two,
so there isn't a lot of cross traffic over the easement. In the SWPP plan(storm water pollution prevention
plan)is the inclusion of mitigating dirt and debris into the right-of-way.Alan Potasnik: As long as you
plan on addressing that.Bob Harmeyer: Once the residences are taken over then the plan is to bring
construction in through that entrance.Alan Potasnik: While they are there it really needs to be addressed.
Bob Harmeyer: That is addressed in the SWPP plan.Jennifer Lasch: It is one of those things that are
taken care of by the construction team.
Ron Houck(Cannel Citizen): On the lighting plan for the top floor, is there a different fixture on the residential
side of the garage?The light shows only going into the garage.Bob Harmeyer:Yes there is.Ron Houck: If it is,
that's fine.Bob Harmeyer: There is a cutoff shield on the back of it.This type of fixture sends the light one
direction.Ron Houck: For the photocell sensors,once the lights are active,what turns them off?Marty
Rosenberg:they are timed out.Bob Harmeyer: There is a timer.They are tripped on and are on for a set amount
of minutes and then turn off.
Jill Meisenheimer(Cannel Citizens for Responsible Zoning): I sent an email to the petitioners for the living wall
window boxes. Marty Rosenberg: We have looked at window boxes in the past.It is not a practical design for
the scale of this structure.The maintenance and ability to bring water to them is erroneous.
Joshua motions to forward Docket No. 19060019 to Plan Commission with positive recommendation, Laura
seconds,motion passes 3-0,absent Adams.
4. Docket No. 19060018 DP: Carmel Hotel and Office.
The applicant seeks site plan approval for two building pads and associated parking on 2.96 acres. The site is
located at 12166 N.Meridian Street. The site is zoned MC/Meridian Corridor. Filed by Brad Schrage of
American Structurepoint on behalf of Michael Garvey of Diversified Land Acquisitions,LLC.
Petitioners: Brad Schrage(American StructurePoint),Michael Garvey(Lauth),&Ryan Kates(Lauth)
Brad Schrage:
• Brad passed around a packet(titled Site Plan Old and New).
• The first page is a revised site plan.The main change is the additional sidewalk extending to the building.
• Staff asked today to realign the sidewalk so it is straight.Before it was angled more.This was done late
this afternoon.
• After the September 17th Commission the main concerns were parking and trees.Page 3 contains a
parking analysis comparing hotel demand,with peak hotel demand,and office building demand. Between
our parking lot and the Ritz Charles,in which there is a shard parking agreement,there are 297 parking
spaces between the two parcels.The hotel will require 127 spaces and five per thousand on a 48,000 sq.
ft. building puts us at 240 at the office with a total of 367.If all the users are present at the same time,
there is a 70 space discrepancy,but hotel users are heavier at night while office users are heavier during
the day. The analysis compares different times a day from overnight to 11:00 pm. With the 297 that is
provided,worse case, is we have a surplus of 49 spaces with the overlapping users.
• Page 5 of the packet shows the rear portion of the Ritz Charles parking lot.This is not necessarily needed
due to the combined parking and overlapping times. Even if we were using the maximum amount of
parking spaces at the 231 we would still have those additional spaces.
Commercial Committee Minutes 10-01-19 5