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City of C
Carmel Plan Commission
COMMERCIAL COMMITTEE
Tuesday, February 4, 2020 Meeting
Location: Carmel City Hall Caucus Rooms,2"d Floor, 1 Civic Square,Cannel, IN 46032
Members Present: Alan Potasnik(Committee Chairman),Joshua Kirsh,Kevin Rider,&Brad Grabow(Alternate)
Staff Present: Rachel Keesling(Planning Administrator), Mike Hollibaugh(DOCS Director), &Nathan Chavez
(Recording Secretary& Sign Administrator)
Legal Counsel: John Molitor
Time of Meeting: 6:00 PM
The Commercial Committee met to consider the following items:
Kevin motions to reorder the agenda to allow Docket No.20010014 ADLS Amend to be heard first,Joshua
seconds,4-0.
1. Docket No. 19090004 ADLS Amend: John Kirk Furniture-Sign Package
The applicant seeks approval for a new sign package for a Multi-Tenant Ground Floor Building. The proposal
includes wall signs. The site is located at 12345 Old Meridian St. It is zoned UC/Urban Core&UR/Urban
Residential and is not located in an overlay zone. Filed by James Wheeler of Coots,Henke&Wheeler,on behalf
of the owner.
Alan Potasnik: I must recuse myself from this petition and I am turning it over to Kevin Rider.
Petitioners: Jim Wheeler(Henke&Wheeler)&Bob Pointer(Ovation):
Jim Wheeler:
• Ovation has been on 82'd St. in Castleton for 34 years and they are now moving to Cannel. They have
found a space in the John Kirk furniture complex on Old Meridian. We appreciate the Department of
Community Service's(Staff)work to have signs blend with the colors of the building, however,the John
Kirk building is old and sits a long ways from the street, it is brown,and has a slanted shingled roof.
Additionally,parts of the building are angled from the street. Ovation needs a sign that can be seen from
the street.
• I believe Staff objects to the orange raceway for the proposed sign. Orange has been the corporate color
for Ovation. They use it on their website and on signs. Using orange in the lettering was originally looked
at,but it will blend in too much with the brown of the facade. White lettering then makes sense,but
orange is needed for contrast.
• A temporary sign(page 17 of Submitted Packet)was approved and has more orange than what is
proposed for the permanent sign. The proposed sign is not gaudy and is classy. There are no color
restrictions in the Unified Development Ordinance(UDO).
Department Report: Nathan Chavez:
• The proposed sign meets the UDO size requirements. The current issue is the color of the raceway
structure. Staff works hard to blend sign structures, including Ground sign bases and Wall sign raceways,
with buildings.This has been a policy since the early 2000's.Currently,there are two existing signs,
Floor Crafters and Royal Gallery of Rugs. Both are flush mounted signs,meaning there is no structure.
Typically with Multi-Tenant buildings, signs all blend together with illumination,mounting,and
sometimes color and size.This is set by the developer. This building was piecemealed together. It was
built in 1969 and additions and signage have been added sporadically. Because there was no guiding
Commercial Committee Minutes 02-04-20 1
document Staff slowly pushed to bring uniformity to signage.
• I brought examples of raceway mounted signs across Carmel that blend with the fascia(Titled
Supporting Information). Staff requests raceways to match white or beige EIFS and brick on buildings.
Doing so results in a clean crisp look. You can see this sign uniformity in City Center,Clay Terrace, and
Village of WestClay.
• Staff has proposed compromises to the petitioner to change certain colors in the Ovation sign, such as
changing the Audio Video Smart Home portions to orange, including orange trim caps. They can then still
have their orange. The raceway is bold and bright and is seen nowhere else within Carmel.
• With regards to the temporary sign, it is just that, it is temporary and will be removed once the permanent
sign is installed. Staff understands they need a sign installed quickly. We cannot restrict colors for the
actual sign,but this is a structure that is being proposed and not a sign.
• Staff recommends the orange raceway is denied or a compromise is found tonight.
Committee Comments:
Brad Grabow:
• Does the UDO require that the sign is individual letters connected by a raceway?Nathan Chavez: It
does not. Because of the curved mansard roof, Staff understands a raceway is required to mount the sign.
Joshua Kirsh:
• Would Staff be more amenable if the raceway was white and the letters were orange? Nathan Chavez:
No.
Kevin Rider:
• Years ago we did get away from having all the signs in centers the same colors. Is orange apart of your
corporate logo?Bob Pointer: Yes. Kevin Rider: To say that we enforce all one color in centers is not a
true statement. We do allow colors are corporate colors. Nathan Chavez: In my position I do not restrict
for color, it is just that sometimes there are developments that do require signs to be a specific color. This
raceway structure color is what we are trying to have changed. Kevin Rider: But you are making a
comment that we specifically changed. At Mohawk Crossing all the colors had to be cream colors. This
changed so business could have their corporate colors;we changed this to allow centers to have three or
four colors.Rachel Keesling: When new tenants come in with a color that is different than previously
established,we ask them to amend their sign package for the site to remove the color restrictions.This
allows for corporate colors,however,there are some developments that have not changed,which is what
Nathan is referring to. We have always regulated trim caps,returns,mounting method,raceways,and
illumination.These are the structural aspects of the sign and are typically kept the same so that there are
not competing lighting styles or that someone is focused on the name of the sign and not what is holding
up the sign. If you'll remember when we amended the Sign Ordinance to allow Staff to perform
administrative reviews,this relieved the Commercial Committee(Committee)of a lot of work,but we
left the specific cases where disagreements are then bumped to the Committee for review.
Brad Grabow:
• I remember this has happened recently at Penn Mark Plaza and the silver buildings closer to 106th St,and
US 31. One tenant wanted one sign change at a time;we brought them back to a new modern standard.
• The Grill& Chill portion of the Dairy Queen(page 28 of Submitted Packet),regardless of the content,
does that construction require a variance or is this a permissible style?Rachel Keesling: We try and stay
away from this type of style of sign(cabinet).Brad Grabow: But is it permissible?Rachel Keesling: It
is.Brad Grabow: If Ovation wanted to incorporate this type of sign which incorporated the same
graphical elements,the color restriction goes away?Nathan Chavez: At that point we would be here in
Committee and argue that Staff does not want to see a cabinet sign on the building. We would argue for a
raceway that blends with the building. Staff's goal is individual channel letters.A cabinet is a large piece
of plastic. Brad Grabow: It is discouraged but permissible?Nathan Chavez: Correct. Brad Grabow:
An alternative is to come back with a cabinet sign,which most of us would find distasteful,but has the
Commercial Committee Minutes 02-04-20 2
same orange that we are trying to avoid tonight. We then end up with the same orange and a worse type
of sign. The proposed seems like the lesser of two evils. I don't disagree that it is an evil. It is not our
first choice,but given the options that are permissible,there are worse.Rachel Keesling: Did the
petitioner provide you with a rendering showing orange lettering on the building?I want to make clear
that Staff is not against orange. Staff is fine with orange letters. I don't think it will look bad with orange
letters and I think the building is very visible from the street. There is nothing that is blocking the view
from the street.Bob Pointer: The building is massively brown.There is no signage on the shingled
portion of the building. The only way one can truly see the building is when they are headed north.
Orange against brown will not stand out. Ideally, if there weren't a brown background, shingles,and a
curved roof I would agree to orange letters, but it is the colors I have to work with. Rachel Keesling:
And they just replaced all those shingles. Bob Pointer: I don't think at the time of construction they
thought Multi-Tenant. I never imagined I would end up in this building. The building is right off the road
and our business hits the same demographics as the furniture store in the building.Joshua Kirsh: We are
happy to have you join the community.Bob Pointer: I am very much looking forward to moving to
Carmel.
Joshua Kirsh:
• What if you took the orange off the raceway and you used a grey and then the smaller text are changed to
orange?Bob Pointer: I would need to see it first. Ideally I would love to have a sign out by the road. The
alternative is to get people to see a sign at this end of the building. There is no difference across the
frontage. Rachel Keesling: Did the sign company mention using a day/night plex?With white letters
during the day and orange at night?Bob Pointer: They did not.Rachel Keesling: This is used for
businesses that need contrast.A sign may be black during the night and then shine white at night. This
will allow the brand recognition. Bob Pointer: The sign company guided me to the current proposal. I
just want a sign.Nathan Chavez: There is room to expand the sign size. It doesn't hit the maximum sign
size and can be expanded in both height and width. There are signs along the US 31 corridor that utilize
this type of illumination.
Brad Grabow:
• With all due respect to the Kirk family,this building needs a lot more than new signs and shingles can do
for it. We have worse problems,from a signage standpoint,around town.
Brad motions to approve Docket No. 19090004,Joshua seconds,motion passes 3-0,Recuse Potasnik.
2. TABLED to March 3 -Docket No.20010009 ADLS Amend: Brookshire Plaza—Façade and Site
Improvements
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3. Docket No.20010014 ADLS Amend: Geico—North parking expansion
The applicant seeks site plan and design approval for a parking lot expansion(218 new spaces)on the north side
of the building(in the previous center of the round-a-bout which has now been removed and reconfigured). The
site is located at 101 West 103'd Street and is zoned MC/Meridian Corridor. It is not located within any overlay
zone.Filed by David Hagan of Carmel Indy Properties,LLC.
Petitioners: Jon Sheidler(Woolpert)&Trent Burchett(Woolpert):
• The first exhibit in the Submitted Packet is an aerial showing the site when a round-a-bout was present.
Up until 2015 this was the site configuration with the round-a-bout at 103'd and Illinois St.The second
aerial shows the area after the street improvements.
Commercial Committee Minutes 02-04-20 3