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Carmel Plan Commission
RESIDENTIAL COMMITTEE
September 3, 2020 Meeting Minutes
LOCATION: COUNCIL CHAMBERS ROOM
CARMEL CITY HALL,2ND FLOOR
ONE CIVIC SQUARE
CARMEL,IN 46032
Members Present: Susan Westermeier-Chair
Carrie Holle
Nick Kestner
Christine Zoccola
Kevin Rider(Commercial Committee member;City Council representative)
Staff Present: Alexia Lopez-Planning Administrator
Adrienne Keeling—Planning Administrator
Joe Shestak-Administrative Assistant
Mike Hollibaugh-Director of DOCS
Legal Counsel: John Molitor
Meeting Time: 6:00 p.m.
The Residential Committee met to review the following items:
1. Docket No.PZ-2020-00069(PUD): Ambleside Point PUD Rezone
The applicant seeks PUD rezone approval to allow a new development consisting of single-family detached and
attached residential. The site is located at 2135 W 146t Street on approximately 56.5 acres. It is currently zoned
S-I.Filed by Jim Shinaver with Nelson&Frankenberger,LLC on behalf of Hoffman Developer,LLC.
Petitioner: Jon Dobosiewicz
• Presented the original site plan and revised site plan,as seen in tab 5 in the info packet
• We enhanced and expanded the open space common areas.Common areas will be a min.of 30%
• We have reduced the size of the southernmost detention pond to preserve more of the existing mature trees
• We were asked by the Saddle Creek(SC)homeowners to not connect to their pond,but we believe that expanding
the existing pond in SC instead of having two disconnected ponds is the best use and layout per engineering
standards
• Our concept plan went from 285 homes to 260 homes
• We added additional a tree preservation area(TPA)along the eastern perimeter
• We will add 4 additional trees to the rear yards of the single-family homes along the eastern perimeter
• We increased parking, including 70 additional parking spaces. Each townhome will be required four parking
spaces,two in garage and two in front of garage,which is specified in our PUD Ordinance.
• Amenities now included are a playfield,dog park,playground, and a small park with seated areas(shown in tab 6)
• Small single family lots in Area D will be all rear loading alley homes
• It was determined that no bald eagle nests were found on site(analysis shown in tab 9)
• Passed out handouts that show the dog park location and a 15'wide TPA along western perimeter
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• Staff asked us to increase the number of windows on all sides,require the same level of architectural detail on all
four sides,requiring a min.number of front porches with a min. depth of 6',adding details from the VOWC
architectural guidelines,and adding masonry on all four sides.
• Passed out handout—Summary of Additional Enhancements
• We will provide an exhibit in the PUD to show where we are providing our TPAs
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• Presented a photo of the entrance in Saddle Creek at Beaumont& 1415`Street. We are proposing to continue the
10' wide planting strip. We will include a raised crosswalk. Signage would be placed further north on our site.
• If our PUD rezone is approved, we would be back in front of the Plan Commission for DP/ADLS approval
Steve Pitman, Pittman Partners
• Our Traffic Engineer inspected Megan Drive,the proposed eastern entrance site.The street meets all City
standards and would be appropriate if it was an entrance point to Ambleside Point
• Residents are against both street connections. We are proposing to add traffic speed bumps and landscaped areas
with benches at both entrances that connect Saddle Creek to Ambleside
• Presented an image to show if Megan Drive stub street would not be connected
Department Report: Alexia Lopez
• They have added a significant amount of greenspace to their revised site plan
• We have outstanding items for the historic home,architectural standards,dog park,and TPA
• Staff needs to review their updated PUD Ordinance
• We recommend this is continue at the October Residential Committee
Committee Comments:
Christine: Can you remove the very first lot on the south side at the entrance at Megan Drive and have this as
greenspace,to mirror what is being done on the north side?This would make for a nice entrance and buffer between the
two neighborhoods.I believe the overall density is still high and would like to see the townhome section reduced. What's
the plan for the historic home and surrounding property?If you are going to reduce the density of the townhomes,please
consider saving some of the trees around the existing home.Are you able to preserve more trees on the west side of the
site?I would like to see the details of the architectural standards as the standards are vague and leave a lot to the builder's
discretion. Steve Pittman: I scheduled a meeting with Mark Dollase of Indiana Landmarks and the Parks Department
Director. We considered moving and donating the historic home to the Parks Department,but they are not interested in it.
It appears nothing is going to happen to the home.Jon Dobosiewicz: The townhome density is at 13.33 units per acre
and the single-family home area is at 2.57 units per acre. What are your exact thoughts in how and where to reduce the
density?Christine: I would like the overall density to be reduced and my preference is to remove the townhomes and
replace with single-family homes if possible. Carrie: The lots along 146th Street are usually unsellable for single-family
homes,and that's why you place townhomes there as a transition and a buffer. Christine: This is a situation different
from the prior development along 146th street that you are referencing. There's a frontage road, so the homes would not be
up on 146th Street. Cars would not be turning directly onto or from 146th street.Jon Dobosiewicz: The area north of 146th
will eventually be developed with retail,office,and multi-family buildings.
Carrie: What are the VOWC architectural guidelines you are referencing? Jon Dobosiewicz: We are taking 16 pages of
the VOWC architecture and design standards and making them applicable to the entire Ambleside Point development.
Carrie: Will there be front-loading garages? Jon Dobosiewicz: All the homes along the perimeter would all have front-
loading garages up to the street. 9' wide garage door with 12' wide driveway. Carrie: How wide are the perimeter lots?
Jon Dobosiewicz: 65' wide. Carrie: Aesthetically,I don't prefer front-loading garages. How can we reduce the density
around the perimeter in order to have side-loading garages?Steve Pittman: We can try to do a courtyard entry. We are
proposing the same front-loading garage homes that were built in Clay Corner.
Nick: With only 6' between each house and a 1' overhang,how do you landscape in that area?It could turn out to a
blank space with an A/C unit.Jon Dobosiewicz: If you drive through Clay Corner,there are homes with this same
standard,and they are able to landscape it. Nick: I have concerns with the entrance of Megan Drive when the cars are
being parked on the street in Saddle Creek. The Beaumont connection is fine because it's a straight shot to 141"Street.
There needs to be more diversity in the elevations. The way I read the PUD; every 3rd house can be the same. Jon
Dobosiewicz: The PUD will state that no two side by homes on contiguous lots or lots across the street shall have the
Residential Committee Minutes 9-3-20 2
same primary exterior color. The same front building elevation shall not be constructed for two lots on the same side of
the street and for five lots across the street. The homes will be of quality and attractive.You can see a similar home
product in Clay Corner or VOWC. Nick: Where will guests park at the alley fed homes?Can you give me an example
Iwhere this exists? Jon Dobosiewicz: On-street parking will be available on both sides of the street of the alley fed homes.
This style of development with parallel on-street parking can be found in VOWC,Clay Corner, and at 136th Street and the
Monon. It's not uncommon. People will park on the street and walk to the home using the sidewalk. Nick: The proposed
playground is only 90' x 50'. That seems small. Steve Pittman: We are proposing a playground that is larger than Saddle
Creek's playground. Sue: Can you bring in a comparison of the playground space at Clay Corner?
Sue: I want to address the Saddle Creek's HOA letter. They are concerned in sharing the pond. Who's responsible in
maintaining the proposed one large pond? With two HOAs involved,there's potential to have problems. Steve Pittman:
SC doesn't want to connect the two ponds. We thought the best thing is to have one large pond and to preserve the trees
around the pond. The pond will connect through a series of underground pipes if it is not connected. We offered to
maintain the pond and install a fountain in the pond. If you don't want the ponds to connect,then we won't. If you don't
want the roads to connect,we won't. Sue: The City wants the street connection and I don't see a problem with it.
Kevin: I don't care what happens to the pond.Properties adjacent to water is a selling point.There will be a fountain
feature and Ambleside Point will pay for the maintenance of the pond.
Sue: What do the elevations of the townhomes along 146th Street look like?Jon Dobosiewicz: Presented elevations of
the townhomes. Sue: I want the standards and masonry requirements included in the PUD. Jon Dobosiewicz: We can
provide that at the next Committee meeting.
Sue: What's the size of the dog park? Steve Pittman: Approx. 6,000 sq. ft. We have not made a commitment to the size
of it. We want to place it the western wooded area and save as many trees as possible.
ISue: I would like to see a reduction in the townhomes and the homes on the southeast side adjacent to SC. Will the
existing trees along Autumn Woods Subdivision remain? Steve Pittman: Those existing trees will remain as is.As you
go south along the eastern perimeter,there are not as many trees. We will add more landscape buffering. We have a really
good plan.This is not a dense development.Ambleside is denser than SC,but this is not SC. We believe the City's
Planning Department gave us good direction. Sue: You have made a lot of improvements. We want to make it the best
for all parties involved. Fine tune the plans for the next meeting.
This item will continue to the October 6`A Residential Committee
2. Docket No. 19090013a OA: Group Home Ordinance Standards
Docket No. 19090013b OA:Accessory Dwelling Unit Standards will be discussed at the Oct. 6 Residential Committee
The applicant seeks to amend the Unified Development Ordinance in order to establish standards and minimum
requirements for Group Homes and to amend definitions. Filed by the Department of Community Services on
behalf of the Cannel Plan Commission.
Christine: This current Docket addresses both Group Homes and Accessory Dwelling Units(ADU).These are really
separate and distinct matters and should be considered separately.I would like to separate these two issues into two
separate Dockets.
A Motion made by Zoccola and seconded by Holle to separate this Docket into two Dockets,one addressing Group
Homes,and one addressing Accessory Dwelling Units. Approved 4-0.
IPetitioner: Adrienne Keeling,Dept.of Community Services:
• We will assign new, separate docket numbers for both Group Home Standards and ADU Standards
• To date, Staff and the Committee have received several letters regarding ADUs.
• We have made several amendments to the group home section of this proposal
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• We contemplated the need to add standards for group homes
• We are proposing a Special Exception(SE)approval by the BZA Hearing Officer for group home petitions. We
will establish a per bedroom fee that goes along the SE fee.
John Molitor,Legal Counsel for Plan Commission:
• Federal Law states it unlawful to discriminate in the sale or rental,make unavailable or deny, a dwelling to any
buyer or renter because of a handicap
• We need to provide a reasonable accommodation
• The Director of Community Services would make their recommendation to the BZA Hearing Officer
• The BZA Hearing Officer would be a public meeting and give the adjacent neighbors the opportunity to provide
their input
• If the group home petition is denied,they may appeal to the full BZA before it would go to court
• We need to remove the sentence;A group home for the mentally ill shall be treated as if it were a single-family
dwelling(line 447 on page 10). We should not treat a group home just for the mentally ill. We need to include all.
• We are changing the definition of a group home from up to eight to six or more
Committee Comments:
Carrie: Do neighborhood covenants take precedent? John Molitor: Yes,they do. There's no case law yet that Federal
Law overrides subdivision covenants. If a neighborhood has covenants that prevents a group home,we can honor that.
Christine: Can you explain the proposed SE approval process? John Molitor: The first criteria is the number of people
living in the proposed group home. We are proposing a three-tier process: 8 people or less would generally be considered
favorable recommendation;9-12 people would be considered favorable consideration unless the Director opposes it; 13 or
more people would not be entitled to a favorable consideration unless the Director is in support. Also,the Director will
examine the seven criteria items for a reasonable accommodation; If there are other group homes clustered within a block
of the site; The number of unrelated persons who will be living in the group home,and whether any professional support
staff will also be residing there;In addition to any residents' car, if more than two staff cars will be parked at the group
home,and whether they will be marked; If the dwelling,existing,modified or new, is similar in design,materials and
landscaping as other adjacent and nearby dwellings;Any other exterior indication that the dwelling will be inhabited by
group home residents;Any undue financial or administrative burdens that would be imposed on the City;and if a
fundamental alteration in the Comprehensive Plan would be required.
Sue: What's the current process for a Group Home proposal? John Molitor: Currently, it's not very clear in our
Ordinance. It's based on some state laws that were passed in the 90's. The Director decides on a decision.
Mike Hollibaugh,Department of Community Services: If the Courts and Federal Law say we can't discriminate,and the
group homes are not just restricted to elderly or drug rehab. I group home can be home for any type. How can we not
discriminate if it's listed in the covenants? John Molitor: US Supreme Court cases established statutes that racial
covenants are against public policy. They haven't established statutes for people who need drug rehab or are
disabled/handicap. At this point of time,we are not in position to override them. Carrie: I'm generally thinking about
the neighborhood covenants that restrict the number of cars/parking spaces allowed or a number of pets allowed in a
household if service dogs are used. John Molitor: The Courts have not been generally favorable of these situations.
Nick: Do we look at the space in the home to determine the amount of people allowed in the home? John Molitor:
There aren't any standards except for the different cases in different states. We look at the decisions made by the Federal
Court judges. The Director would give their recommendation.Nick: What about supervision?John Molitor: Yes,they
would be.
Carrie: What about a multi-generational family living together? John Molitor: It's not considered a group home if
everyone is considered being related and/or a family.Mike Hollibaugh: Building codes still apply. There are minimum
sq. ft. allowed per person. When a proposed group home goes through all the required permitting,access and safety are
inspected. Carrie: Could a group home be placed in an existing home? Mike Hollibaugh. Yes. We examine each
proposal individually,and we look at each situation case by case.
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Nick: Do we have a definition for a supervisor(of a group home)? John Molitor: We don't. It means the residents of
the group home cannot live there by themselves and need on-going supervision. Nick: There could be an option for a
live-in supervisor. John Molitor: A supervisor is needed for insurance and liability purposes if someone got hurt or sick.
Sue: Should we include a definition or add more language?John Molitor: It mentions supervision.
Sue: Is there a maximum or a cap of how many people we should allow to a group home? John Molitor: There isn't
but previous case law hasn't been favorable for 15 or more residents to a group home.
Sue: Is there anything else we need to think about or include? Mike Hollibaugh: The zoning districts and development
standards help to keep the building structure,driveway,and parking in compliance.
A Motion by Zoccola and seconded by Kestner to send Docket No. 19090013a OA to the full Plan Commission with
a Favorable Recommendation.
Approved 4-0.
Meeting adjourned at 8:20 p.m.
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Joe S"(Cr —Recording Secretary Susan Westermeier—Chair
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