HomeMy WebLinkAboutBPW-07-10-78BOARD OF PUBLIC WORKS
PUBLIC HEARING
July 10, 1978
The public hes~ring for the proposed construction of improvements to Carmel's
existing sewer system for the pLurpose of rehabilitating portions of the existing
system was opened at 7:0~ PM byMayor Pickett. Mr. Hohl was present. Mr. Kern
Fred Hohl: Essentially the Public ooncept~f rehabilitati~sewer proves to try
to repair certain defects, ~ud eventuality of failures of the sanitary sewer
thereby overloading'the sewers, one of the m~jor features of the program we are
talki~ about today will be constructing a force main pa~alleling~the Keystone
In~erceptor and Lakeshore Dr West approximately over to a point on Gray Rd.
This point being down on the south end of Woodland Green. The p~rpose of this
hea~ing is to allow people to ask questions that they m~y have about the proposed
project and to discuss the effect that this proje0t has on rates and the
possibility it may require selli~ bonds and as the advertisement stated there
is no impact on otur rate structure due to this project. Another thi~ I would
add is that as advertised there a~e rate increases contemplated for the
sanit~y sewer system. Rate increases will be noticeable. They are not related
to this project. This project can be done without chsngi~ the finaneial status
of the sewer system. The rate increase will be covered in future public hea~ings.
Steve, perhmps you can describe in a little more detail what this particular
project will entail.
Steve U~Lrick, Clyde E. Williams & Assoc.: The most noticeable aspect of the
project we are talki~ about tonight will be the lift station amd force main as
Fred discussed. The sole pturpose of that is to try to help the basements that
are being flooded along the Woodlands Green and Lakeshore Drive East, where there
has been a problem in Carmel for years really, and only now going through the
Federal process where we are in the position to be able to begin to really do
som~t~i~ about it. The second pa~t of the pro~ct probably not quite so iv
noticeable when it is bei~ done will be actually fixing some leaky sewers. Some
sewers accordi~ to the engineering study were determined to have bad joints or
bad alignment. Maybe a piece of pipe was cracked and has to be replaced in total.
These things have been categorized and outlined in the documents to be sent
to the federal government and we will be doing that process too. That won't be
as I said, anywhere near as noticeable as the force main that Fred was talki~
about. That would be what the normal person would consider a construction
project. Fixing the leaL~y joint in a sewer will not entail much more than
parking a truck over a manhole and putti~ a m~chine down in the sewer. It goes
in andsquirts grouting material in the sewer and stops the le~k. So that won't
be very disturbing to the public. As Fred has said the estimated cost of the
project does not effect the rates at all.
As to where we are in the process, we have completed the engineeriD~ report
necessary as required by Federal and State government. That was completed in
December 1976. And the appropriate people were to ask for funds to do the
d~sign of the project was sent along with the report. It took quite awhile for
State Board of Health amd the Environmental Protection Agency to finally get
arouu~ to looki~ at amd approving that grant amd after they finally looked at
it they decided that we need to have what they termed "an environmental assessment"
of the force main goi~ underneath the Woodland Lake area. They were concerned about
the harming of the n~tural habitat of that area. That report was then done within
the last two months and it has been on public display along with the sewer system
evaluation survey or the engineers report that I've been referri~ to and this
environmental assessment will also be sent to the State Board of Health amd EPA
along with the minutes of this meeting tonight. ~
P~ge 2
7/10/78
Steve U~_rick(con't.): The primary purpose of this meeting tonight is to give
the pubic voice in what's going on and if there is a dissenti~voice among the
pbblic that will be considered by the local people amd by the Federal people
so we'll just have to wait and see what the citizens would like to say. At
this time I think the best way to handle therest of the hearing, unless
somebody else would like to make a comment, would be just to turn it open for
question and answer period. I will try to answer all questions relating to the
e~ineeri~ studies that come along and I amd Fred Hohl w~ll try to relate back
to you some of the history of why we a~e where we are if that is your question.
If you have a question as to the financing, we do have a member of the fiscal
firm here tonight~ Jeff L~sley from McCullough & Associates)to answer those
types of questions. So barring anymore opening statements I'll just ask if
there are any questions from anybody in the audience.
Jane Reiman~ ~J~33 Somerset Way S..Carmel: Steve, why do we have to do this now,
who constructed it originally?
Steve Uhrick: Well I re~tly can't muswer that question because we're not looking
at any one isolated area. We're looki~ at the City in full so we ...
Jane Reiman: Oh, I thought we were. Fred just said we're looking at something
on Lakeshore Drive West over to Gray Road.
.Steve Uh_rick: Well that's where we're endi~up locating this facility but the
cause of it is spread all over the whole City.
Jane Reim~n: But I'm not-well-I thought this particular one - now am I misinter-
preti~ what Fred Hohl said that this one is going from Lakeshore Drive West
across the way to Woodland Green to Gray Rd, I'm saying-who originally did that
work? Did Mr. Wilfong do that?
Fred Hohl: The sanitary sewer you refer to, which we will be putting in a sewer
in the same easement as the Keystone Interceptor was built by P~lph Wilfong.
Subsequently, sold to the City. I believe that's correct, it was sold. The
problem is not so much with that sewer. The sewer has been actually pretty
sound. The inspections we did on the interceptor, the 15" interceptor sewer
is in relative sound condition-reStively few leaks - few low spots-quality is
not that bad. We have a tremendous amount of inflow of waters caused by putting
drains on houses. We have solved that problem 99.99 tenth per cent in Carmel for
several years now. Most of Woodland Springs does have good drains going into the
sewer. And we also got-when we talk about leaky sewers we talk about miles amd
miles of 8" or smaller sewers that are vital lines that connect each house into
the sewer. These are installed by various developers amd P~lph Wilfong is a
contractor that installed those.
Jane Reims~.$ We 'are havi~ to repair what he originally put in-is that what you
said?
Fred Hohl: To s~me extent that the repairs and I think that was the interesting
thing that the study showed is that the results of the sewer system evaluation
was that there was not a great deal of identifiable, significant, identifiable
sources of inflow water. We do have and have i~entified some les2~y pipes, and
joints, which, until we got into the type of inspection which has been going on
now for about four years, to make certain that the lines are sound it was impossible
really to detect anything. So web,are trying to fix up something the survey shows
the basic source seems to be in the ~rains, which is a case of illegal con~ection
to the sewers made by the builders. The cost of disconnecting the builders
connection-I don't recall at this time- I think the average cost was $800o0~ $1700
or somewhere in the vicinity. The federal government would not pay for the
disconnecting of those connections. The homeowners would have to disconnect
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their own and pay for it but apparently they h~ve allowed that as a valid
figure to be used in cost effective studies of the total cost to the p~blic
is far in excess of the profits to be m~de in this excess water. So thats
the p~rpose of the pumping station to attempt to convey this excess to the
plant to be treated.
Jane R~m~n: If the bdilders have added to this problem is there a~yway the
City can fine them? Bee~use we really are taking quite a bit of Federal money
here.
Fred Hohl: We have an ordinance that provides for fines. The problem that we
have had since we've been enforcing the ordinances, we've been watching them
very close. The problem we've r~uu into enforcin~ it is that there is a tendency
of the court to say "who specifically did this act" we kind of had this basic
feeling that the builder should be responsible and we've never carried one t~ruugh
court to fine somebody so it's a little hard to tell for sure but there is-
you get into a little discussion as to the builder saying-"Hey I did everythi~
absolutely right."
M~,~or Pickett: Fred, you might point out that the inspection procedures ch~uged
when I c~me in as the Building Commissioner.
Jane Reiman: Oh, I'm not sayio~ that-Fred was here then - you weren't- I'm
talking to Fred.
Fred Hohl: We've had a great deal of difficulty in coming up with a scheme where
we can't-in other words we can,t hire about ~50 people and leave them on the site
for 90 days or 120 days. I know I soand ridiculous.
Jane Rein~u: Well that is a ridlcuious statement.
Fred Hohl: I know that sounds ~tupid~but that is the normal period. What we
normally would have to do because they can ge in and make this connection at
any time until they get that backfill around the footing. So we go in and inspect
and everything is coz~ect-then we turn around and find out the house after it was
completed they had connected after the inspections -they had made the connections.
A1 Pickett and myself saw two of these recently with the Building Comm~ esioner.
M~,yor Pickett: There were three of them that we did have the builders correct it.
Jane Reiman: B~t from now on when we find that,is there some way we can have an
ordinance? Is there some way to fine th~se people?
Ma~or Pickett: Didn't we ge back on the homeowner Fred?
Fred Hohl: We have a~ ordinance. I want to say to the reporters here. The
counsel at that time, Johu Pearce, decided that they shouldn't proceed with that
because the sub-division hadn't yet been annexed to the City in this particula~
instance-and we couldn't prosecute under the City ordinance.
Jane Reiman: You can't when yo~Te not amnexed can youy
Fred]~Hohl: We~l I'm not too sure I think with a little bit of cleverness we could.
We also have ~ther sanctions. Builders don't like that they cs~u't get building
permits in there. They strongly dislike digging up the sewer after they've filled
in to show us what they have done. We have done a number of effective procedures.
For heaven's sake we're not having that trouble now-it is rare.
Jane Reiman: M~ other question was, I thought we were just doing this area and
putti~ in a local share of $~3,000 but Steve did you say we're doing it all over-
that this would cover all of our rehabilitation over Carmel?
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?/lO/78
Steve Lrb_rick: What I me,ut to say was that the fix-up program is just not in
the area that Fred was talki~ about-we're going to be fixing up the sewer
here and a sewer there and basically cover the whole City.
Jane Reiman: So what are the other a~eae that are covered?
Steve Uhrick: There aren't any others. This program that we're talki~
about tonight is to fix up all of-the sewers in the City as recommended in the
e~ineeri~ report.
Jane Reiman: But Fred just mentioned one-this one.
Fred Hohl: Jane-I think Steve's trying to make the point that ~its a two fold
program. One is, we have excess water in the sewer. It comes from putting
drains into m~jor sources of the south system. It comes from ald sewers that
have broken down with bad joints. In the north system we got ~®we~s that were
put in ~onger than ten years ago. We are trying to correct all of these located
sources.and thats scattered all ~ver Carmel-downtown, new sub.divisions~
everywhere.
Jane Reiman: I mean, this amount, though, will cover for how long a period or
do you know - we cam almost rehabilitate everythi~ thats needed right now then.
Fred Hohl: 0nly if its been identified. There a~e some lea~s in the sewers
that we won't bother with. They utilize ~-I'll use the term formuia-I don~t
think th&ts quite right. They utilize a formula that establishes the amount
of gallons which they effect. In other words they'll go out and measure ~low
in mar~holes with recorders to a seg~nent of the sewer lines and then we will watch.
Some of these show a m~ked increase in flow when we have rainfall. So due to
that we found a ma~ked increase in flow then Went 'back in these areas and we
did severa~ kinds of tests. One of which is to dye-flood our storm sewers.
We actually ~l~god the storm sewers and filled ~hem f~ll of water with dye
in them and saw if any Qf this leaked over into the sanitary system. Thats
one possible source amd then we h~ve only one or two cases in the entire City
where we've had any trace that that happened. We also ran smoke tests. The
m~jor leaks then w~re categorized.
$$eve Ehrick: After we found all the leaks that we could find using all the
methods that Fred described, we estimated how much we tho~ht it would cost to
fix them and we knew how much they leaked. And then we estimated how much it
would cost to just let the water continue to leak and treat it when it got down
to the treatment plant and if it was cheaper to treat it than it was to fix ii.
We said we're not going to fix that leak and it goes to the treatment plant.
Now if it was cheaper to fix it than it was to treat- that was the one we proposed
to fix. So we picked the cheapest way of the two 9ptions that a person wo~ld
have and this was all done according to the Federal guidelines. So there are some
leaks - we call them minor leaks - that only in that they are cheaper to leave
than to fix. There~are some leaks that we have found that-we're not going to
fix under the Federal program because its cheaper just to treat the water when
it does get into the sewer. Now the.big leaks n~t~rally its 0heaper to fix than
to treat. So thats the ones that have been categorized on the maps, etc. And
we're going to fix those. Now some of those leaks were kind of in the middle.
They were small leaks but when you added them together, they got to be a
significant amount. Although it wasn't cheaper to fix them but you couldn't
leave them in the sewer as they stood now because they flooded the basements
alo~ the Keystone area. So the option we had there was to put in this pumping
station that we've been talking about and force main and when that excess
amount of water gets in the sewer we're goi~ to pump it out and send it down
to the treatment plant for treatment. So we don't overload the sewer like
they've been overloaded in the past.
7/10/78
Jane Reims.u: Would you say,Fred, the highest percentage of that amount though
is probably going to the major part of this rehabilitation? Is that part more
expensive?
Fred Hohl: No, I don't think thats true. I haven't gotten a cost break down on
the individual parts. M~ guess would be we're about equal or possibly less. The
force main is less than half the cost of the total project. The force main is
the most visable part. 0n most of the sewer repairs we will be doing internally.
On rare occasions there may be some excavation over a pipe. Again it will be a
small excavation. In putti~ in the force main we will be goi~4~ to for miles
across back yards-across the lake-through tennis courts-through a driveway-and
people are going to notice that. A couple of them are goi~ to come down here
and stra~le the City Council.
Jane Reiman: And you.
Fred Hohl: Because they'll be very upset by the fact that we're going through
their yard. ~t just sayi~ thats goi~ to be the visable part. Its also the
most sigaificamt project we're going to be doio4~, in this total project in terms
of eliminating, we hope, the flooding.
Jane Reiman: Are we doing anything in the downtown area?
Fred Hob_l: Throughout, as we said previously, there will be repairs throughout
the entire City, do~rntown, new sub-divisions, north, south, east, and west.
Jane Reiman: Will it be quite a while you think before we do another rehabilitation
project? or have you projected that far? Will this take care for a year-two years?
Fred Hohl: When the repair~ a~e m~de they will probably be good for l0 or 15 or
100 years. If we have further deterioration within a period of a year-which is a
possibility-they might rehabilitate that segment. Its been three years since we
did the study. I don't know whats happened out there in those three years.
Steve Uhrick: For those new people that have come in the hearing since we started
this public hearing. This public heari~ tonight is on the sewer rehabilitation
program and we have already discussed some of the history as to where we are and to
why we are there. We pointed out the fact that what the project scope is and we
have stated that the estimated project costs are not going to affect the rates at
all. And now we are at the point in the p~blic hearin~where we have had a question
and answer period. So if you have a question please just state who you are for
the record and then ask your question and we will try our best to answer your
question.
Ron Eckler: This may not be the place for it and maybe again it may. You're
talking about rehabilitation of the sewer system. I'm or!~imally from Jordan
Woods and we have none period. Is there any plans in that direction for those
people?
Steve Uhrick: That is not a matter of discussion for this public hearing but for
information there are some 10~ term plans for that and I suggest that you attend
the next meeting df the Clay Township Hegional Waste District. For the time and
place of the next meetio~ you may contact Mr. Dick Helmuth. He is the chairman
of that.
PeE~'V Smith: When is this project supp9sed to be finished?
Fred ~ohl: Hopefully, I think Steve estimated somethi~ about next spring at best.
Steve Uhrick: I would say realistically speaki~we probably would see the relief
about next fall maybe some of it-next spri~. We'll see whats happeiing-whats going
on next springbut it may be fall before its done.
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Fred Hohl: The next step after this public hea~ing and EPA approval, is step
2-design. Step 3 grant which will be the actual construction.
Jane Re~m~u: It will take that lo~? Even though you pretty much have known
what you're~ going to ~o in order tO give the Federal government an estimate.
Isn't that~ correct?
Steve Nhri.ck: That~ correct.
Jane Relm~n: So don't you k/nd of have that ready to go or do you have to
s t~rt all over a~?
Steve Ukrick: No, we don't have to 'start all over ~galn and I think that as a
matter of fact, we can probably produce the plans and specifications in three
months or less. As soon as we do that, then we have to ask the government for
another grant and it takes a long time for them to decide to.give it. All I can
say we've been waiting over a yea~ for them to get us to this place.
Jane Re'man: How do the grants work?
Steve Uhrick: Actually where the paperwork is at the office now for the cost of
the second step phase and we are about ready to emba~k upon-as a result of the
second step phase-we'll have biddi~ documents. The contractors can bid on the
price of their work and we will estlm~te based on those kind of documents what
we will think the construction cost will be and then they will grant us the money
for the construction cost. After they grant us the money then we can actually
take bids and start the construction process.
Jane Reiman: We still are working within this framework of $238,000?
Steve Ukrick: Yes. Well barringsi%y more questions, I guess we're about ready
to call this meeti~ to a close. Fred would you like to ms~e any closi~
statements at all?
Fred Hohl: I guess not. I do want to make certain we have no residents here
effected by this project that feel that the~e a~e any questions unanswered~
City Council is here, Township people a~e here and a member of the Board of
Public Works. We did mention in the study the possibility of maybe having to
move a tennis court or going around it. I wondered, Steve, if you at this point
had thought that much about what an alternative of goi~ through that particula~
Steve Uhrick: The context of the report mentioned a short term route relocation.
Like maybe goi~ just 50 feet or somethi~ the other way and if that's impossible
then there isn't any alternative.
Jane Reimsn: In a project like this, do you notify the people in Woodland Springs
and Woodland Green? How fair ahead? I know its public notice but the people that
their lawns will be torn up etc. a~e they aware? Will they be awa~e a month before
it starts or how do you do that on a public relations basis?
Fred Hohl: We~ve always made it a point to m~e a favorable impression. Usefully
we notify the public there is a project plan in the vicinity but can't readh
everyone. Secondly, p~ople will call us and say whats happening in this area?
We try to explain that to them, we te~ll them of course to come see the plan if
the~'re interested. Finally the individual'.people, depending on the nature of
the project-if I were going to be out trenching, doing nothi~ but very minorthings in
various spots a~round town, I would never attempt to call all the homeowners
involved in a real long project and say-hey we're to dig your yard but if we're
going to be digging a trench I think we probably will-probably goio~ to have to
contact those homeowners specifically and inform them. Particularly the two of
them that I know we're going to run into driveways an~ tennis courts. We will
expect to be informing them of that. Then we have always made certain that the
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7/10/78
Fred Hohl(con't.): contractor, once work htarts normally drops his ~me off
at each house. He goes to each house along the way and leaves in writing
somethim~which tells them who he is and what he is doing and who tha~ they
can contact with their problems. This could get to be a very major project
trying to sit dow~ and inform them and notifyi~ every single individual
individually.
Steve Fhrick:
Mayor Pickett:
Steve Ub_rick:
Mayor would you like to make any kind of a closim~ statement?
NO.
The meeting is about ready to close. We have just a short time
for anymore questions. Since there s~re no more questions the official record
will be left open until next Monday at 5:00 ~gular closing time of the
Clerk-Treasurer~ office for any written comments that anybody might like to
make. After that the record will be c~osed and the results of this meeting,
along with the e~virommental assessment report will be sent to the state and
Federal government for their review. Thank you very much for your time.
Public Hea~ing closed at 7:25 PM.
Peggy Lou Smith
Clerk-Treasurer
Approved:
Albert B. Pi~ett, MayS'r ~/