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HomeMy WebLinkAboutCCM-11-05-90CARMEL CITY COUNCIL MEETING MINUTES NOVEMBER 5, 1990 ONE CIVIC SQUARE/COUNCIL CHAMBERS 7:00 P.M. The meeting of the Carmel City Council was called to order by Mayor Dorothy J. Hancock. Members present were Minnie Doane, Lee Lonzo, Annabelle Ogle, Alan Potasnik, David Adams, Frank Fleming and Tom Irvin. City Attorney Steve Andrews and Clerk-Treasurer Susan W. Jones and Deputy Clerk-Treasurer Jean Junker were also in attendance. The invocation was given by Councilor Doane followed by the Pledge of Allegiance. Councilor Irvin made a motion to approve the minutes of MINUTES: October 15, 1990. The motion was seconded by Councilor Fleming. All members voted aye. Motion carried. Councilor Potasnik stated there did not need to be minutes of October 29th since it was a committee meeting of the full Council rather than a special meeting of the Council as a whole. : Councilor Fleming made a motion to approve Resolution TRANSFERS 11-5-90-1 which allows for the transfer of $2,500 within the General Fund Budget, DOCD-overtime account. The motion was seconded by Councilor Ogle. All members voted aye. Councilor Irvin made a motion to approve Resolution 11-5-90-2 which allows for the transfer of $2,500.00 within the General Fund Budget, DOCD- furniture & fixtures account. The motion was seconded by Councilor Ogle. All members voted aye. Motion carried. Councilor Lonzo made a motion to approve Resolution 11-5-90-3 which allows for the transfer of $30.00 within the General Fund Budget, Fire Department - tires & tubes account. The motion was seconded by Councilor Doane. All members voted aye. Motion carried. Councilor Lonzo made a motion to approve Resolution 11-5-90-4 which allows for the transfer of $1,500.00 within the General Fund Budget, Fire Department - building & structures account. The motion was seconded by Councilor Doane. All members voted aye. Motion carried. Councilor Potasnik made a motion to approve Resolution 11-5-90-5 which allows for the transfer of $150.00 within the General Fund Councilor Lonzo made a motion to TRAVEL EXPENSES ORDINANCE/D-680: introduce Ordinance D-680 and suspend the rules for reading of the same. The motion was seconded by Councilor Adams. All members voted aye. Motion carried. Councilor Irvin made a motion to suspend the rules and act on Ordinance D-680 tonight. The motion was seconded by Councilor Ogle. All members voted aye. Motion carried. Mayor Hancock called for the question. All members voted aye. Ordinance D-680 passed unanimously. A motion was made by Councilor ELECTED OFFICIALS SALARIES/D-677: Potasnik to introduce Ordinance D-677 and suspend the rules for reading of the same. The motion was seconded by Councilor Lonzo. All members voted aye. Motion carried. Mayor Hancock explained that a second reading could not take place until the ordinance had been advertised and a 30 day waiting period had lapsed. Ordinance D-677 will return to the agenda on the second Monday of December. Councilor Lonzo made a COUNCILMANIC DISTRICTS/ORDINANCE D-683: motion to introduce Ordinance D-683 and suspend the rules for reading of the same. The motion was seconded by Councilor Irvin. All members voted aye. Motion carried. Councilor Lonzo offered the following changes in the Councilmanic districts. Daniel Warren (District 1) would be moved to District 2. Cool Creek North (District 2) would be moved to District 4. Cedar Lake would be added to District 1 and Brookfield would be added to District 4. Councilor Lonzo, along with all members of the Council wanted it stated for the record that this was only an "adjustment" of the districts but was not reapportionment. Reapportionment would be done in 1992. Councilor Lonzo made a motion to suspend the rules and act on D-683 tonight. The motion was seconded by Councilor Adams. All members voted aye. Motion carried. Mayor Hancock called for the question. All members voted aye. Ordinance D-683 passed unanimously. Council Potasnik MOVING OF ITEMS ON AGENDA AND ADDITION TO AGENDA: made a motion to suspend the rules to move items 6, 7 and 13 up on the agenda, and also to add an additional item relative to a property purchase agreement the city attorney wishes to present to council. The motion was seconded by Councilor Lonzo. All members voted aye. PUBLIC HEARING/ ORDINANCE Z-257/ST. VINCENTS HOSPITAL & HEALTH Councilor Lonzo made a motion to introduce Ordinance CARE/RE-ZONE: Z-257 and suspend the rules for reading of the same. The motion was seconded by Councilor Ogle. All members voted aye. Motion carried. Jim Nelson, attorney for the petitioner, explained the project and the re-zone to the Council. Mr. Nelson stated St. Vincent is the owner of the 8.1 acre parcel of real estate located southeast of St. Vincent Carmel Hospital between Guilford Road on the east and Old Meridian on the west. St. Vincent is requesting a rezone from its present R-l classification to B-5 in order to permit the development of the real estate for two (2) story medical office buildings, each containing 30,000 square feet, pursuant to a development plan filed with the Department of Community Development. The Mayor opened the proceedings to the public for a hearing. The Mayor called for questions and/or objections. Hearing none, she closed the public hearing and opened it to the Council for the same. Councilor Irvin made a motion to suspend the rules and act on Ordinance Z-257 tonight. The motion was seconded by Councilor Doane. All members voted aye. Motion carried. Mayor Hancock called for the vote. All members voted aye. Ordinance D-267 passed unanimously. Councilor PUBLIC HEARING/ORDINANCE Z-256/ROOF TOP APPURTENANCES: Lonzo made a motion to introduce Ordinance Z-256 and suspend the rules for reading of the same. The motion was seconded by Councilor Fleming. All members voted aye. Motion carried. Wes Bucher, Director of Community Development, explained the ordinance change to the Council. (See attachment to ordinance.) Mayor Hancock opened the hearing to the public for questions and/or objections. Hearing none the public hearing was closed and opened to the Council for questions. Councilor Potasnik made a motion to suspend the rules and act on Ordinance Z-256 tonight. The motion was seconded by Councilor Ogle. All members voted aye. Motion carried. Mayor Hancock called for the vote. All members voted aye. Ordinance Z-256 passed unanimously. PUBLIC HEARING/ORDINANCE C-148/ORDINANCE TO VACATE A PORTION OF THE Councilor Lonzo withdrew RIGHT-OF-WAY OF SECOND STREET NORTHEAST: from this matter entirely. It was determined that notices were not properly filed with the Noblesville Times and the Noblesville Ledger and this matter would return at the November l9th Council meeting. budget, Communications Center - trash service. The motion was seconded by Councilor Lonzo. All members voted aye. Motion carried. Councilor Potasnik made a motion to approve Resolution 11-5-90-6 which allows for the transfer of $3,600.00 within the General Fund budget, Communications Center - telephone account. The motion was seconded by Councilor Lonzo. All members voted aye. Motion carried. SECOND READING/ORDINANCE Z-255/A REQUIREMENT FOR A (6) FOOT FENCE Steve Andrews SURROUNDING A PRIVATE RESIDENTIAL SWIMMING POOL: explained to the Council that he had talked with Bill Wendling, attorney for the Plan Commission, and stated the basic problem is because we have a conflict with the zoning ordinance and the building code ordinance. Steve Andrews explained the procedure that suggested we can reject the ordinance and send it back to the Plan Commission with reasons why it was rejected and recommend the change the Council would like to see. The Plan Commission has 45 days to respond. Councilor Potasnik said the recommendation needs to be very specific and very clear. Councilor Ogle stated she wanted the recommendation to require a fence and specifically a fence with a self latching gate. Councilor Irvin echoed Councilor Potasnik's and Councilor Ogle's comments. Councilor Adams made a motion to send Ordinance Z-255 back to the Plan Commission and to make sure the fence requirement is maintained in the ordinance. Councilor Lonzo called for the question on Ordinance Z-255. All members voted nay. Ordinance Z-255 was rejected unanimously. Councilor Adams then withdrew his motion. Councilor Adams then made a motion to send a letter to the Plan Commission, drafted by Councilor Potasnik and Steve Andrews that states the building codes are in compliance with the zoning ordinance and to maintain and continue the practice of issuing building permits for pools that requires using state code options 1, 2 or 3 and to raise the fence height from 5 to 6 feet. State code number 4 is objectionable to the Council. The motion was seconded by Councilor Lonzo. All members voted aye. Motion carried. Councilor Potasnik again, stated he wanted self-latching gates as part of the new ordinance. Councilor Potasnik made a motion to table this item until it is properly advertised. The motion was seconded by Councilor Doane. Councilor Irvin voted nay. Councilor Lonzo did not vote. All other members voted aye. The motion passed by a majority of votes. It was the determination of COUNCIL DEPARTMENT REQUEST FOR 1991: the Council to leave the Council representatives for each department as it is this year unless a Councilor wishes to make a change. Councilor Irvin stated he would like the CATV EQUIPMENT REQUEST: Council to consider a request to purchase video equipment for the Council chambers rather than have the high school continue to bring their equipment to the meetings. He also suggested we could tape Plan Commission and BZA meetings if the equipment was always here. The Council thought it was an excellent idea. Councilor Irvin made a motion to check into the details of the proposition and return to the Council with a final report on cost. The motion was seconded with Councilor Lonzo. All members voted aye. Motion carried. Councilor Lonzo suggested the Council work closely with Hal Espy from the high school on what equipment is needed. Councilor Ogle made a motion to postpone items #8, AGENDA ITEMS: #9,#11 and #15 to the next meeting. The motion was seconded by Councilor Adams. All members voted aye. Motion carried. (All claims would come from the COMMUNICATIONS CENTER CLAIMS: $150,000 renovation line item within the Council's budget.) Councilor Potasnik made a motion to approve the claim from Dart for $2,190.63. The motion was seconded by Councilor Lonzo. All members voted aye. Motion carried. Councilor Potasnik made a motion to approve the claim from Dart for $4,033.51. The motion was seconded by Councilor Lonzo. All members voted aye. Motion carried. Councilor Potasnik made a motion to approve the claim from Marburger & Son in the amount of $3,825.00. The motion was seconded by Councilor Lonzo. All members voted aye. Motion carried. Councilor Potasnik made a motion to approve the claim from Vasey in the amount of $808.74. The motion was seconded by Councilor Ogle. All members voted aye. Motion carried. Councilor Potasnik made a motion to approve the claim from LT Plumbing in the amount of $1,500.00. The motion was seconded by Councilor Doane. All members voted aye. Motion carried. Councilor Potasnik made a motion to approve the claim from Service Pipe and Supply in the amount of $219.00. The motion was seconded by Councilor Lonzo. All member voted aye. Motion carried. Councilor Potasnik made a motion to approve the claim from Suburban Glass and Supply in the amount of $950.00. The motion was seconded by Councilor Ogle. All members voted aye. Councilor Potasnik made a motion to approve the claim from SMI in the amount of $322.37. The motion was seconded by Councilor Doane. All members voted aye. Motion carried. Clerk-Treasurer Susan Jones outlined a CHECK RELEASE POLICY: problem she has been having regarding issuing checks prior to "board approval." The Clerk-Treasurer asked permission to work with the City Attorney on this problem. Jones had received a letter from the State Board of Accounts outlining their position on this matter and felt it should be done through Resolution of the Council. The Council granted the Clerk's request. ORDINANCE D-681/AN ORDINANCE AMENDING ORDINANCE D-635, EXTENDING THE SIGN-UP PERIOD FOR ENROLLMENT IN THE CATASTROPHIC MEDICAL LEAVE Councilor Adams made a motion to introduce Ordinance D-681 BANK: and suspend the rules for reading of the same. The motion was seconded by Councilor Ogle. All members voted aye. Motion carried. Councilor Lonzo made a motion to suspend the rules and act on Ordinance D-681 tonight. The motion was seconded by Councilor Ogle. All members voted aye. Motion carried. Mayor Hancock called for the vote. All members voted aye. Ordinance D-681 passed unanimously. RESOLUTION 11-5-90-7/A RESOLUTION AUTHORIZING EXECUTION OF PURCHASE Steve AGREEMENT BETWEEN ASH REALTY CO.,INC. AND THE CITY OF CARMEL: Andrews explained the purchase of the property located at 1030 South Range Line Road. He stated the purchase price was $1,100,000.00 and was being purchased "as is." He stated the City had a 45 day right of inspection but that the deal must be closed by December 31, 1990 in order to do bond financing. Steve explained the City would probably use a "bond anticipation note" between the City and Merchants. We would have the option to roll the note over or return the property to Merchants if financing was not available in 5 years. Steve stated the appraisal of the property was $1,500,000.00. Don Silvey went over the property and felt it was in good sound condition and was a good buy. The Clerk-Treasurer asked for a copy of the documents the Council was reviewing at that time. The Mayor gave the Clerk a copy of Resolution 11-5-90-7 but did not submit a copy of the purchase agreement to the Clerk. Councilor Lonzo stated he felt Steve did a great job. The price is great and would like to see it used for a teen center. Councilor Irvin seconded Councilor Lonzo's comments. Councilor Potasnik asked about the unpaid taxes. Steve Andrews stated he did not have the latest up-dated title but everything would have to be taken care of before we could take title. Councilor Doane also felt it was an excellent idea and was a part of the complex. Councilor Adams felt it was a good price. Tom Kendall, 11811 Gray Road asked the Council if there will be a public hearing. Mr. Kendall agreed it might be a great buy and perhaps had a good use but didn't the Council think the public had a right to say whether or not they wanted to make such a purchase. Mayor Hancock stated this was not a "done deal." Mr. Kendall stated that according to the Resolution it looked as if the Mayor was committing to $1 million dollars of the taxpayers money and that the citizens need an opportunity to address this issue. Steve Andrews stated that this will be handled just like Phase I and Phase II of Civic Square and would be assigned to the Civic Square Building Corporation. Mr. Andrews said public hearings would be held. Councilor Irvin made a motion to approve Resolution 11-5-90-7 which authorizes the Mayor to enter into an agreement to purchase the property located at 1030 Range Line Road. The motion was seconded by Councilor Adams. All members voted aye. Motion carried. CUMULATIVE CAPITAL DEVELOPMENT FUND/ADDITIONAL APPROPRIATION REPORT: Clerk-Treasurer Susan Jones stated that the additional appropriation request for CCD (Sidewalks) had been reduced from $200,000 to $197,514.00. The abstract figure for property taxes was used rather than the 102% levy. There being no further business before the Council. The meeting was adjourned. Transcript of proceedings of City Council Meeting 11/05/90 Mayor Hancock New Business - Purchase of Civic Square Centre Building, Mr. Kendall. Tom Kendall Thank you Mayor Hancock Please turn on your microphone and identify yourself. Tom Kendall Thank You. My name is Tom Kendall, I live at 11818 Gray Rd. in Carmel. (See Document) Mayor Hancock Thank you, Mr. Kendall, thank you Mr. Kendall, yes Counselor Lonzo. Person Unknown (a member of the audience attempts to speak) Mayor Hancock I'm sorry sir, it is up to the Council now. Person Unknown (same member of the audience) You mean I can't give a different opinion? Parliamentarian Parliamentarian in order Mayor Hancock Yes, Parliamentarian since this is not a public hearing, I need a ruling. Lee Lonzo Well, I checked the same rules that Mr. Kendall made reference to this evening and what I found was only Council members, the Mayor, and the Clerk-Treasurer can add items to the agenda so first of all I think what was somewhat in question was whether or not Mr. Kendall could decide to put himself on the agenda but I'm presuming that because he made the request the Clerk-Treasurer put him on the agenda and also I think we have been very open about letting people speak at these meetings including Mr. Kendall. But the last meeting, when he didn't ask to be on the agenda, but we said go ahead, I think that pretty much has been our policy throughout my tenure here. I think we are going to have to think real quickly here whether or not we want to suspend the rules and turn this into some sort of open meeting this evening or whether just because Mr. Kendall spoke, we want to allow that one person to speak and then we want to react to that... whether we want to open it up. Mayor Hancock So, I guess what your telling me is we need a suspension of the rules in order to let someone else speak. Is that correct? Lee Lonzo That would be by interpretation of our rules, yes. Mayor Hancock Do I hear such a motion? Tom Irvin I so move. Annabelle Ogle Second. Mayor Hancock Do we have a discussion? Lee Lonzo Again, as parliamentarian, for suspending the rules... you can suspend the rules only for a specific purpose and I guess my only question would be, is your specific purpose to allow anyone here that wants to speak this evening? Do you want to put any time limits....Tom, that needs to be incorporated in your motion because the motion to suspend the rules is not debatable. Tom Irvin Well, the first question I have does... is of the attorney. In your opinion, are we in violation of our own ordinance? Steve Andrews For me... You want me to address that? I mean I'm getting... Mayor Hancock Well, we have a motion on the floor and we have a debate and Mr Potasnik is wanting to speak, I need some direction here, Parliamentarian. Lee Lonzo I'm asking Tom to clarify his motion as to whether or not he wants to put any time limit on open debate. Whether you want x number of speakers on either side of the question. Tom Irvin I really would like to know whether or not we are in violation of our own ordinance and that would help me make up my own mind what I want to do here. If we are in violation, then I want to open it up for discussion. Lee Lonzo Then as parliamentarian, my suggestion would be to, with the approval of the seconder, withdraw your motion and we can have our discussion up here and then if you feel like you want to make a motion, then you may. Tom Irvin Alright, I'll withdraw it. Lee Lonzo It takes the approval of the seconder whoever that was. Annabelle Ogle I will approve. Mayor Hancock Alright, now that the motion is off, would you like to ask the question of the City Attorney? Steve Andrews Alright, you want to know whether we violated our rules and regs as far as putting this on the agenda...whether I violated it or not is actually the question. In my opinion, we did not. In referring to section B of the rules, I think Mr. Kendall read those to you. It does state that if you don't make the deadline and whether I did or didn't we're all going to assume I did not, and Janet says I did. I have no reason to dispute her although I thought we were on a deadline. Be that as it may, there was a requirement of a typed or written memorandum or instrument to go out to the Council members, the Mayor, and the Clerk-Treasurer that did go out in the form of this from Susans office at my request and says, "late addition to the City Council Agenda for November 5, 1990 per Stephen K. Andrews, item #17, Purchase Agreement, Ash Realty/City of Carmel. Well if you'll look at the purchase agreement, you'll notice it was not executed by Ash until November 5, which of course was a date so there was no backup to go along with this. This is as much explanation as I had at the time. Wednesday, before the Monday of the hearing we did not even have all the terms of the Purchase Agreement, written down or locked in. We were still negotiating language so there's nothing more to give you at that time. The minutes reflect that Council, Counselor Potasnik did make a motion to add this item and one other item to the agenda. That was, the rules were suspended as required by the...by our rules and reg...by your rules and regulations. It was passed without dissent and the item was added to the agenda. Now, timely fashion which we are going to assume I did not, I don't know what more I could do to follow the rules of the Council and getting this item before you. Lee Lonzo I'd like to respond as well, as parliamentarian, I will read again the last sentence that Mr. Kendall read, which was, no other items may be added to the agenda without the Common Council's suspending its rules which shall require a unanimous vote of all those present, which we did. I reviewed the tape myself, that was Alan's motion. We voted unanimously as called for by Roberts Rules of Order, we have done that four times this evening. Mayor Hancock Do you have any other questions Mr. Irvin? Do you wish to rebate your motion? Tom Irvin No, I withdraw the motion. Mayor Hancock Okay. Council discussion...Mr. Lonzo Lee Lonzo I have several reactions to Mr. Kendall's remarks. First of all, I thought Mr. Andrews, at the last meeting for anybody who happened to be here and anybody who happened to watch it on television, did an admirable job of trying to explain to Mr. Kendall and anybody else present, what the concept of an anticipation bond was all about. When Mr. Kendall says that this deal is virtually completed, I would in whole heartedness, disagree with that. There are lots of steps which we not only can take, but must go through before we can float a bond to buy that building and that was stated over and over again in our last meeting. I'm just going to go down a laundry list of things I wrote down as quickly as I could as Mr. Kendall was speaking. His comments about having a procedure by which we can find suing ourselves where quote, we have clearly broken, unquote, our own procedures is clearly out of line here because as I just stated, we have not violated our own procedures, we followed the same procedures that we followed four times this evening. I think it was rather ridiculous to think that the County Prosecutor would help out with some sort of legal aid fund, they're not the ACLU, they are not there to do anything with City Government. I look around this room and I see some people who are in support of the motion or our action of last week and I know they are 'cause I have spoken to them personally. So please don't lead us to believe that everybody in this room, although maybe a majority of the people in this room disagree with our action. I'm a little concerned as you use phrases like, reports from several people say that this is poorly constructed building and a person who's a professional when we sat in executive session, we knew who the professionals were who gave us appraisals tonight we don't know who professionals are. You say, the, whoever he is, offered a lower amount than $1.1 million. So did we. I don't see where that says anything. And as Mr. Andrews tried to explain to you, at the last meeting, there are all sorts of good reasons for a bank to sell to a City where they wouldn't to a private developer. You sure guessed wrong when you talked to...when you said you doubt that anybody on the Council talked to any teenagers about the need for a teen center. You referred to your survey as an informal survey, but my estimation of it is that of the two hundred students that I personally came in contact with daily and the nearly two thousand that I come in contact with everyday and have for the last seventeen and a half years, I probably have a better finger on the pulse of what the teenagers think at Carmel High School than you do. I also resent the implication that we're going to be subsidizing anyone if we rent out space in that building, whether it be for profit or non profit. As I read the paper over the last weeks, I couldn't but do the same thing you did Mr. Kendall, and prepare some of my own remarks. And I gotta start off by saying, for the last several months it appears somebody's been dishing you information so you can say the right thing at the right time to get your name in the paper and I've wondered what your motivation's been. Whether it's been personal, or professional, or financial, or political or you just like to read your name in the paper. It definitely appears to me as if you're running for something and that's sort of irrelevant unless you use this forum for your own gain. And although I think you're probably running for something, I think that your motivation, at least superficially, is well intended because I suspect you fashion yourself to be the anti-mayor, anti-council watch dog of the people as you described as being in the paper last week. I hope you're not disappointed when I tell you that I don't believe that you're the canker sore in the mouth of the Council, as was described in that paper, but I do believe you've been at least an irritant to those of us in City Government. And as a life long student of political science and that is to say, my major area of concentration in my under graduate degree was political science and as a student of democracy, I must state that think a person like you is healthy for us. Amen. The Ralph Nader...Nader types and even the ACLU is my estimation cause healthy discussion as long as it's not for personal gain. And you make people in government stop and think before they act. And that's good. But there's one important difference between you and those of us who sit up here and that is we were elected by the voters to do a job. This body is a citizen legislature. And in final analysis, we who are elected and I emphasize elected to these positions, must listen to our constituents and then use our best judgements. We're certainly willing to listen to your opinions and we believe you say that you have lots of friends who feel the same way. But we were elected to solicit input from our constituents and then use our best judgement on voting on tough issues that will effect Carmel for a long time after we're gone. You've expressed some opinions concerning the purchase of this building and the input that I am receiving is directly in conflict with your advice. We've had our executive sessions concerning this possible acquisition, one member of the Council took the Clerk-Treasurer into confidence as the possibility of the purchase and she saw fit to reveal that information to the press, therefore, rightly or wrongly, the potential purpose...purchase rather, has received far more news coverage than most similar purchases would. There has been much discussion in the community about this purchase and based on the input, that I've received, together with the information currently have on this building and understanding that safeguards are in the process I'm led to the conclusion that we must purchase this building and the land. In my mind, there's no doubt there's some day we will desperately need this property and that the best test of our decision will be in ten or fifteen years. We may never need that building, but quite frankly, I doubt it. I'm also convinced that we have numerous possibilities for the uses of that building right now. None is set in stone, we have voted on none. You've been reported in the paper as making light of the need for a teen center and you've sort of expressed that again this evening. Many in your neighborhood and mine have kids in the elementary and junior high schools. My kids are in elementary school and they have plenty to do right now. But what has this community done for the teens that teach, that I teach and come in contact with everyday for the last seventeen and a half years. What do you know of their problems? Where can they currently go just to be with their peers enjoying each others company, insulated from peer pressure and abuse of drugs and alcohol. I'd much rather have a place for by kids and we're talking about nearly three thousand residents of Carmel to go and hang out as you say than I would have them on some block alley learning about Budwieser, Jack Daniels, and marijuana. The bottom line is that is no...if there is no specific school activity going on, they just aren't welcome anywhere. The businesses don't want them and I don't blame them for not wanting them hanging out in the businesses and unlike our elementary kids, they don't want to spend all their time with the parents so I ask, rhetorically where will we send our kids when they're teenagers. It's also been reported in the paper, that you don't think organizations such as the Dad's Club, and the Symphony are worthy of space which we might be able to acquire it or rent it for. Well, I disagree. The Dad's Club has met a tremendous need within our community for years that the City's been unable to meet. And if we can help them direct their limited dollars to kids instead of buildings then I'm all for it and I'm not even suggesting the space be free. I'm sure that if civic minded non- profit organizations would like to locate in this building, then they'd be willing to pay their own freight. In short, based on current information I think that this purchase would be right for Carmel, but I also understand the need for further community input and Steve Andrews attempted to explain to you at our last meeting how that would not only be possible, but required before we could issue bonds. In some ways it's real easy to sit out there and criticize when we make tough decisions and it's very vogue right now to criticize the dirty bums in power and I don't now, nor have I ever thought of myself as one of them as part of the government. I look out here and I'm your neighbor. I work in Carmel, I teach your kids at the high school. I have the best interest of the community at heart, both in the short run and the long run. And that doesn't mean we'll always agree but should I choose to run for another term in this council, I'll be happy to stand on my record including my current position on this land acquisition. And the beauty of a democracy is that if my neighbors don't like what I've done, then they can simply vote me out of office and let somebody else give it their best shot. But until that happens, I've got a job to do and I'm going to do it to the best of my ability and I'm sure you will do what you have to do Mr. Kendall. But please remember, we're the ones who are elected due to the will of the majority and we're going to attempt to do just that. Thank you. Mayor Hancock Thank you Mr...Thank you Councilor Lonzo. Councilor Potasnik did you have comments? Alan Potasnik The point...many of the points that Lee has already touched on are thoughts that I've had this past weekend, especially it's been very difficult and I in retrospect in thinking back about this whole process, was wondering. Question in mind, whether or not thoughts that I had were correct with regards to this building. If we can be accused of anything, it would be that our feeling of urgency in order to take advantage of an apparent good purchase versus taking a step back and say, okay, we miss the cut off times by whatever it was, couple of hours, ah to get this on the agenda it's just going to have to wait. I think that members of the Council, I can speak for myself you been the same way is that we always wanted to have as much input and involvement from the public as we possibly could. And I know personally, I take this to the extent when I sit on Plan Commission as well whether it be as a member of the commission or being when I'm Chairman of the land use Committee that ah I've always asked that the input of the public be there. Ah, I think in this case, and again in review of my review of the tapes over at the high school it seems as if we did follow procedure on this, it's not to say it was again as I said the feeling of urgency may have overtaken us however, I think that there was as far as I was concerned, I felt very much satisfied in that we did follow those procedures. Ah, I get a problem when people keep referring to spending our money. Because, we are you. Whether you like it or not, to think about that sometimes, but the fact of the matter is that when I was running for Council, I spent many several years in the public watching. When I was running for Council and prior to my decision to run, I never missed a Plan Commission meeting, Board of Zoning Appeals meeting, or believe it or not, a Board of Public Works meeting. And those are not necessarily a lot of peoples idea of fun, but the fact of the matter is, that I wanted to learn before I taught, so to speak. And in doing that I try to follow that same procedure with regards to this issue, for I too, when I sat in the audience looking at the people who are sitting up here, although it was not as quite as nice as this, I came to the realization that when an individual leaned next to me, especially at Plan Commission, and said the die's already been cast, we might as well set up and leave at a public hearing only to find out later that perhaps those people, those people who were not bussed into this community were not dropped in to raise havoc with the community and then put on a bus to go some place else and live in another community. They were people who had to live next door to the individuals who's decisions they made affected them, their children, their families, as well as themselves, that they too care about the community. So when I refer to spending, we are spending our money. We are also spending all of our money as well. I too, as far as well as I heard Lee mention, wanted to talk to some people, ah sometimes you feel that ah in this position, you are so close to the position so close to what's going on, that sometimes we need to take a step above everything and look at it a little different, different view. And so I spent my Friday afternoon over at the high school. I spent my one day Sunday speaking to a group at Carmel United Methodist Church. I was asked to speak when this issue came up. Even went to the Colt game and sat down and as I was placing myself in the seat, the gentleman across the isle is a Carmel resident, said to me, Alan, I want to talk to you about that building. I couldn't even get away from it at a football game. But to an individual, each one of these individuals I talked to were all in favor of purchasing this for all of the reasons that Lee had mentioned earlier. I did not have one person that came up to me and obviously in our positions, we've had from time to time, people who came right up to you all the time and let you know what they feel, they will offend you, or not. Not one person at the church, at the high school, and neither did this individual at the game come up and talk to me in a negative manner in what it could do for the community and what the bigger picture is down the way. And I am a dreamer, Mr. Kendall, and to make comments about financing things that are down the road or whatever, your reference was, I don't know, that's fine, because I think of this community and how it's changed. I'm proud of it and I think that we have to look in that with those type of eyes. Ah you, it's true I even talked to a teenager who is my niece who is the other one that had interrupt me at the game and she said to me, Uncle Alan, what do you think about this building and I said the same thing that I'm sure all of have who have talked what do you think. Ah and ah it was also in a positive manner. I guess that's about all I want to add to this, ah, in light of all that I think that as far as my consideration of what we've done so far to date, would only be capped by what I've talked, when I talked to Mr. Andrews this morning, because the question of public input came up into that question again and I said in effect and forgive me if I'm wrong, Steve, I wanna make sure that some that along this way that before anything is consummated as far as this building is concerned, before a bond issue is let that the public will have an opportunity to speak for that and he answered in the affirmative. Ah, I don't know what else I need to have to make assurance that the public will have input but that was good enough for me. I thank you for your time. Mayor Hancock Are there any other Council members who wish to speak to this subject? Counselor Fleming? Frank Fleming There's one other thing I want to add in regard to the building. This building was built the same as any other building is built in town, homes, or whatever, it goes through a series of inspections while it's being under construction. And it was my understanding talking with the Department of Community Development that it passed just like any other building in town did, it had to be right and that was what I found out by asking questions about this building before I voted on it. At first I wasn't sure whether I wanted to be for this building or not, but ah after the things we could use it for and it fit in with the setting, why I thought well, maybe we shouldn't let it get away. I think everything else has been said. Thank you. Mayor Hancock Thank you. Are there any other Council members who wish to speak? Tom Irvin Madam Mayor, I so echo Mr. Kendall's remarks. I don't like increased taxes either. Ah, my taxes last year increased about sixty plus percent and I happen to be one of those that fall in the Senior Citizen Group that is on working on trying to live on a fixed income. But my experience has been over the last thirty years that I have worked with people and the City of Carmel and Clay Township, they want to service, they're willing to pay for it if they get service and I personally feel that we would be doing a disservice to not only the present taxpayers, but future taxpayers if we didn't take advantage of this opportunity. Those of us who have witnessed the growth over the last twenty to twenty-five years know what happened or know what has happened. Ten years from now you won't be able to touch that property for six times the amount of money that we been asked to pay for it, I'm all for it. Thank you. Mayor Hancock Is there anyone else on the Council that wishes to speak to this agenda item? Thank you.