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HomeMy WebLinkAboutCCM-07-01-91 CARMEL CITY COUNCIL MEETING MINUTES JULY 1, 1991 ONE CIVIC SQUARE/CITY HALL 7:00 P.M. The meeting of the Carmel City Council was called to order by Mayor Dorothy J. Hancock. Members present were Tom Irvin, Frank Fleming, Minnie Doane, Annabelle Ogle, Alan Potasnik and Lee Lonzo. David Adams was not in attendance. The invocation was given by Councilor Doane followed by the pledge of allegiance. MINUTES OF JUNE 17, 1991: Councilor Fleming made a motion to approve the minutes as written. The motion was seconded by Councilor Doane. All members voted aye. Motion carried. The mayor asked the ORDINANCE D-697/COMPREHENSIVE PLAN UPDATE: Council if there was to be more discussion or was the Council ready to take a vote on the ordinance. Councilor Lonzo asked the member of the Council who were also members of the Plan Commission if they had anything to add. Lonzo said he usually looked to those folks for guidance and would appreciate any further insight they could give. Councilor Potasnik said he wished he could add more other than what he added last week and felt very strongly about this plan update. Potasnik said he thought if there could be more discussion just exactly what else could be said. Potasnik said if there was anything else that needed to be said it would be the issue of being able to address the density issue. Potasnik wanted to add that on February 5 a public hearing was held by the Plan Commission and that the President of the Plan Commission did ask people who wanted to speak on the issue of the update and were given an opportunity to do so. Potasnik also said that only "x" number of dollars were set aside to do an update and that was what he thought the commission was doing and that is what it is. Councilor Ogle echoed Potasnik's comments. Ogle said she went back over and read the plan and read all the letters and felt this update was a general guideline and does not tie itself to the actual zoning requirement. Ogle said she felt that the Commission worked many hard hours on this and wanted to get this update behind the Council and begin work on the next one. Ogle said many of the concerns could be addressed in the next update. Councilor Irvin said he understood that the Plan Commission worked many long and hard hours but he still had some very strong reservations about this plan. Irvin said everyone talks about it being an update but it really isn't and is already outdated. Irvin said only a portion of the comprehensive plan was to have been updated and it was. Irvin said it was not the fault of HNTB that the Council did not get anymore than what was submitted. Irvin said the Council had to assume some of the blame for this because the Council did not supply the funds to do the job like it should be done. Irvin said the Council got exactly what they paid for, land use and roads. Irvin said he was still concerned about the density west of Springmill and wanted the Plan Commission to take another look at that one area. Councilor Fleming said he happened to live where there is a little bit of privacy and appreciated the wants and needs of those people living west of Springmill in wanting to protect their privacy as well. Fleming wanted to step back and take another look and maybe help those people in helping them with what they want. Councilor Lonzo said he felt real guilty about saying anything negative about the plan update and felt part of the blame because perhaps not enough funds were put into the process. Lonzo said he also knows how hard those people work and what a thankless job it is and is impressed by the work they do. Lonzo said there are also other people out there that also need to be listened to at this point. Lonzo said the people who are going to be affected most by the plan are those now living the areas that are least developed right now. Lonzo said he is hearing them say, loud and clear that they don't like the total package that is being presented. Lonzo also said he thought some consideration should be given to the thoughts of some of the new Council members and the new mayor and they have asked the plan update not be passed as it stands. Lonzo said he was just not sold on the total package and even if it was the right plan he felt the Council is unable to get everybody to buy into it. Lonzo stated this put him in an awkward position because if the Council doesn't take any action the plan will go into effect and if the plan is sent back to the Commission it must go with specific recommendations and direction as to what to do. Lonzo said most of his problems were with density but said most of his problems would please anybody. Lonzo said he wanted to see some areas in the northwest of Clay Township reserved for small farms and/or estate lots. Lonzo said he didn't feel it was the right time for this plan. Lonzo asked if any other Councilors had any specific direction or recommendations to send back with the plan to the Plan Commission rather than just vote up or down on the ordinance. Lonzo called for specific amendments. Councilor Ogle said she read the letters that were sent to Councilor Lonzo and then went back and reviewed the parts of the plan those people referred to into their requests. Ogle said what carried a lot of weight for her was the words used in the plan such as "guideline" and "average". Ogle said that allows for a difference and not a specific definition. Councilor Irvin recommended the following: "The Carmel City Council desires that the guidelines stated the density in S-l should average no more than 1 unit per gross acre and that development density in S-2 should average no more than 1.5 units per gross acres." Councilor Lonzo stated that was motion and then asked the Mayor to review the procedure as she thought it should be and also asked if she wanted a second to that motion. Lonzo said it could be handled either way. Steve Andrews, City Attorney then stated that if the Council intends to alter the document by amendment then it needs to be sent down to the Plan Commission for their consideration. Andrews said that if Irvin's recommendation was in a motion then it would definitely need to go back to the Plan Commission. Mayor Hancock asked if the Ordinance shouldn't be voted on before anything else takes place and if it fails then it has to go back with specific recommendations. Andrews agreed with the Mayor. Andrews said that if the Council voted on the motion and the motion passes that would be a material change and that amendment needs to go back with the entire document and there would be nothing for the Council to vote on because the Council amended it. Lonzo thought the most efficient way to handle this was to raise any motions for amendments first to see if the Council has 4 votes on any of those and if there aren't any of those it would not be necessary to vote on the entire package because the Council can't send it back without specific recommendations. Lonzo then seconded Irvin's motion. Andrews said he thought you could send it back but the Council would have to come up with reasons. Lonzo said that was his point. Andrews wanted that very clear that if the Council didn't like the plan they needed to know specifically why they didn't like it and make recommendations for the Plan Commission. Potasnik thought that by voting on specific recommendations at this point, it was the same as voting the plan down. Potasnik wanted to take a vote on the plan. Potasnik said if it passes there isn't a need to go through the exercise of amendment but if the plan is voted down then recommendations could be made. Potasnik thought the Council should call for the question. Councilor Doane asked how much time would it take if the Council were to turn down the plan tonight would it come back again. Andrews stated 45 days. Lonzo respectfully disagreed with Councilor Potasnik stating that if a vote on the plan were taken right now and the vote is 3 up and 4 down, the Council may have 4 single, individual reasons why it was turned down and the Council can't do that. Lonzo said there had to be a consensus and rationale on the recommendations. Lonzo wanted to go amendment by amendment to give the Council a chance to discuss the problems they might have with it. Mayor Hancock stated there was a motion on the floor. Lonzo said Irvin could call for the question on the motion and immediately call for the question on the plan itself but Lonzo stated he would vote against that. Lonzo stated there was a motion on the floor concerning an amendment and all discussion should revolve around that. Irvin then re-read the amendment to the Council but changed the content to the following: "The Carmel City Council desires that the guidelines state that development density in S-1 west of Springmill Road should average no more than 1 unit per gross acre and that development density in S-2 should average no more than 1.5." L Andrews stated that because the motion now included an area designated west of Springmill and that you would have one zoning classification but two different development standards. Andrews said there was no point in having zoning classifications within zoning classifications. Irvin then withdrew the part of the motion that spelled out the area west of Springmill. Lonzo then stated that if this recommendation is acted on favorably by the Plan Commission then it would not come back before the Council. Lonzo said this motion addressed only one of his concerns it doesn't represent all of them. Lonzo said his concerns were so overwhelming that he stated his initial reaction was to suggest the Council moves right on to the next comprehensive plan. Lonzo did not want the one motion to go through and then get sent back to the Plan Commission and the update immediately adopting. Lonzo suggested a new classification for 3 to five acres and wanted that incorporated. The mayor called for the question on the motion. Irvin, Fleming and Doane voted aye. Lonzo, Ogle and Potasnik voted nay. Mayor Hancock broke the tie by voting nay. Motion failed. Lonzo stated the best thing to do at this point was to send the update back to the Plan Commission with thanks from this Council for the excellent job and also tell them this Council is ready to make a financial commitment to starting an on-going update for the comprehensive plan. Lonzo then made a motion to table this item and come back to the next Council meeting with a letter stating in general terms what he had just said. Fleming seconded the motion. Irvin asked if the item he had made a motion on would come back for a discussion at the next meeting. Lonzo said any item might possibly be back for discussion due the nature of the letter to the Plan Commission. The mayor called for the question on the motion to table Ordinance D-697 until July 15. Ogle, Lonzo, Fleming and Irvin voted aye. Doane and Potasnik voted nay. Motion carried. ORDINANCE D-703/ AN AMENDMENT TO D-699/AN ORDINANCE EBTABLISHING Fleming stated that the number D- CASH FUNDS AND PETTY CASH FUNDS: 704 was used for the Ordinance in appropriating funds for the storage barn. Jones said to go ahead and use that number and would change the next one. Potasnik made a motion to introduce Ordinance D-704 and suspend the rules for reading of the same. The motion was seconded by Lonzo. All members voted aye. Motion carried. Mayor Hancock stated this ordinance changed a petty cash fund into a change fund for the Department of Community Development and to increase the petty cash fund for the Law Enforcement Aid Fund. Irvin moved to suspend the rules and act on D-704 tonight. The motion was seconded by Ogle. All members voted aye. Motion carried. PUBLIC HEARING/ORDINANCE D-706/REOUEST FOR ADDITIONAL Councilor Lonzo moved APPROPRIATION/PARK BOARD $5,300/GENERAL FUND: to introduce Ordinance D-706 and suspend the rules for reading of the same. The motion was seconded by Irvin. All members voted aye. Motion carried. Andrews spoke on behalf of the Park Board. He stated the purpose of this appropriation was to do an updated survey of community needs and wants regarding Carmel parks. Andrews said there had been a quote given to the Park Board in the amount of $5,300. The mayor then opened the meeting to the public for a public hearing. Tim Story, resident of Mohawk Crossing in Carmel spoke in favor of the special appropriation. Story felt there may be some members on the Council who did not favor this appropriation since two members voted against even advertising for the appropriation. Story said under normal circumstances he would side with Councilors Fleming and Irvin. Story said that surveys in the past indicated that people wanted parks much in the same way that Americans liked baseball, motherhood and apple pie. Story said what was needed to be determined, using that same analogy, if people were willing to support a bond issue for a baseball stadium, whether they would use tax dollars to support a child care system and will the apple growers get a tax abatement in order to make there business profitable. Story said, in other words, we need to find out how much people are willing to pay to support parks regardless of the township's participation. Story said about 4 or 5 years ago there was a survey done regarding health care and what was discovered was that 85% of the people thought there should be much more universal access to health care in the United States. Only 75 of the people thought that the federal government ought to be the conduit by which that occurred, 65% thought it was a good idea to have some additional tax money to support that but only 20% were willing to pay anymore than $50 to support something that over 4 times that many said they, in fact, favored. Story said he would not normally support another survey especially considering the climate of surveys just done in the community he did favor this one because it would tell just how much, dollar wise, the people of Carmel support parks. David Carter, Park Board member agreed with everything that Dr. Story said and added that the board was also looking for direction. They wanted to know if people favored small neighborhood parks, large community oriented parks or ball fields. Tom Kendall, 11818 Gray Road, echoed what Dr. Story said concerning the appropriation. Kendall said from knocking on doors and doing his own informal survey felt everyone was in favor of parks but the question was how deep are they willing to dig to have them. Kendall asked for one stipulation that the questions being asked in the survey be known to the Council before the survey is even done. Kendall stated that in light of recent surveys being done for the school and other projects, questions and answers were deliberately directed to create the answers they wanted. Lonzo asked Kendall who he would suggest should have power over the questions being asked in the survey. Kendall said he thought it should be the Park Board. Lonzo asked Kendall if he thought the board should have advice from the experts. Kendall stated that as long as the experts don't steer the people one way or the other through their questions. Seeing no one else wishing to speak to this appropriation, the mayor closed the hearing to the public and opened it to the Council calling for their comments, questions and/or objections. Lonzo applauded Dr. Story for his comments and his rationale and said he was disappointed that more candidates were not in attendance to go on record especially those who have been quoted as saying they are going to take the Park Board apart as soon as they take office. Lonzo said he was in favor of this appropriation. Irvin said he was one of those who voted against advertising for this appropriation. Irvin stated part of the reason he was not in favor of this was because, he too, had heard that the Park Board was going to be disbanded after the first of the year. Irvin said another concern of his was whether or not the City needed to do another survey on parks. Irvin suggested the ladies that formed Carmelot might possibly be able to do this survey. Irvin said he was for parks but he wanted to see this $5,300 used to start developing the land that was given to the City for that purpose rather than doing another survey. Irvin said that people will support parks if they can see something in the making. Irvin stated that years ago when the City built a community swimming pool and money had to be borrowed that people had to sign notes in the amount of $3,000 that the project was not going very well until the hole was dug in the ground. Irvin said after the hole was dug it all started and sold 100 life memberships at $300 each. Irvin said the Council has been talking parks for the last 3 1/2 years and it is time for some action. Fleming stated he agreed with most of what Irvin had said and thought the City should get on with it so there would be some example for everyone to go by. Fleming said a year ago he suggested it be put on as a referendum item and was shot down by all of the Council. Fleming said taxpayers in Carmel are already paying 8 cents for county parks plus the township isn't going to help in the cost but they also will be using the parks. Potasnik said the Council shouldn't even be talking about what is going to be disbanded because we have people who are supposedly going to be tearing down something when they haven't even been officially elected yet. Potasnik said he was on the committee to select questions for the comprehensive plan and found it not to be a satisfactory situation. Potasnik said the more people who meddle with the questions, the more the questions become less valid. Potasnik asked Dave Carter to clarify who would be doing this survey. Carter stated it was the Indiana University Public Opinion Lab run by Indiana University. Potasnik also shared the thoughts of other Councilors as to the participation of the township. Potasnik said he couldn't understand why there can't be some kind of agreement between the two units of government. Potasnik stated perhaps there is one in the working and it just takes time but felt there should be some involvement by the township. Potasnik said he felt it very important to have this type of direction from the people and if this survey did not produce this information then they have done the citizens of Carmel an injustice. Lonzo then stated that if you have Indiana University doing this survey then you have people who have degrees in this science and putting together surveys is a science. Lonzo said he did not think that was the issue tonight and would have to trust the Park Board to get valid results for the money spent. Andrews said one thing the Park Board has not had and that is direction. He stated they have been formed and they have been organized but they really don't know what to do or where to go with the park issue without public input. Andrews said this was the first step in development. Irvin said the way the law is written right now, the trustee will have control over all parks and recreation and will even have taxing power over Carmel citizens for that purpose. Irvin wanted to use the money for actual development. Fleming said he wasn't against parks or anybody on the board and thought they have done a good job and worked hard like all the other committees that have been formed but just felt an example was needed. Fleming said he has taken his grandchildren to the Carmel Clay County Park several times this year and is not opposed to parks. Doane said that when she first came on the Council she was not particularly interested in parks because when she was a child she went to parks and she knows what takes place and what the upkeep will be once one is obtained but tonight in this discussion, she was for parks. Doane thought the ladies who did Carmelot did a great job. Lonzo made a motion to suspend the rules and act on Ordinance D-706 tonight. The motion was seconded by Ogle. Doane, Fleming, Lonzo, Ogle and Potasnik voted aye. Irvin voted nay. Motion failed. Ordinance D-706 will come back before the Council at the next meeting. REOUEST FOR ADDITIONAL APPROPRIATION/l991 FIRE DEPARTMENT The mayor stated the BUDGET/HEALTH INSURANCE INCREASE/$40,387.15: Fire Chief sent over information concerning health insurance but did not request an additional appropriation at this time because the health insurance increase is going to hit several departments. The mayor asked this item be tabled until everyone comes back and do everything at the same time. Lonzo so moved. Potasnik seconded the motion. All members voted aye. Motion carried. COMMUNICATION CENTER CLAIMS: Councilor Fleming moved to approve a claim to Lectro-Communications, Inc. in the amount of $822.25. This was from encumbered funds out of the Council's budget. The motion was seconded by Potasnik. All member voted aye. Motion carried. DISCUSSION ON REMOVAL OF GASOLINE TANKS/31 lST AVENUE Fleming stated that in order to black N.W./COMMUNICATIONS CENTER: top the complete lot of the Communications Center the underground gasoline tanks have to be dug up and removed. The street department does not want to do the work until the tanks are removed. Fleming said the biggest problem is not knowing how much money to appropriate for the project. Lee Dolen, Carmel Utilities Department, stated to the Council that the best estimate for this project is approximately $10,000. However, that excludes any contaminated soil that remains in the ground that would have to be removed and taken to a special land fill. The option of filling the tanks was discussed by Dolen and the Council. Dolen stated the cost for that procedure is approximately the same as having the tanks removed. Fleming asked if this couldn't be handled by the Board of Public Works and then the appropriation could be obtained and then pay that line item back. The mayor stated the BPW could not sign a contract until there has been money appropriated. Lonzo moved to direct the Clerk-Treasurer to advertise for an additional appropriation in the amount of $10,000 for the purpose of removing the gas tanks at the Communications Center. Irvin seconded the motion. Lonzo directed the Clerk to advertise the appropriation from the General Fund, Board of Public Works budget and line item building repair and maintenance. The mayor asked Irvin if it was okay to amend the motion. He stated it was. The mayor called for the question. All members voted aye. Motion carried. REQUEST TO ADDRESS SIDEWALKS ON 106TH STREET/KIRSTEN AND JILL (Letter to Council from Jill and Kirsten Meisenheimer MEISENHEIMER: attached to the minutes.) Jill and Kirsten Meisenheimer presented copies of petitions for sidewalks leading to Carmelot on 106th Street to only the Council. Jill and Kirsten then made a formal presentation regarding their request. They outlined their meeting they had earlier with the County and found the County was not in the business of installing sidewalks. After much discussion it was the statement of the Council that they would be willing to check into the possibility of installing sidewalks in front of St. Elizabeth Seton Church and would also consider sidewalks provided right-of-way could be obtained from property owners. Mrs. Meisenheimer stated she was intent on getting sidewalks installed to the point of closing the park. Mrs. Meisenheimer detailed the dangerous situation along 106th Street and called for immediate action on the part of the Council. Mrs. Meisenheimer detailed many options for obtaining sidewalks to the Council. The Council and the mayor told Mrs. Meisenheimer that the problem was obtaining right-of-way. The mayor said she contacted American Aggregates and they are willing to donate the right-of-way necessary but they are on the wrong side of the road to suit this purpose. The mayor said the owners of the farm ground said they would think about it but legally none of those are in the city limits and the city attorney has said that the city can't spend money outside of the city limits. The mayor asked the Council that if enough money is left from the sidewalks appropriation would they want her to contact Don Silvey, the consulting engineer, to go ahead and pursue this request to do the sidewalks in front of St. Elizabeths. Lonzo said he would support that effort but also encouraged the mayor to contact the County Commissioners and see what could be done. The mayor said she had contacted the commissioners and were told basically the same thing that was told to the Meisenheimers that they were not in the business of installing sidewalks. BOARD OF FINANCE/METRO BANK/PUBLIC DEPOSITORY: Jones outlined the request from Metro Bank. Metro now has a branch at the corner of Range Line and Main Street. Lonzo so moved. The motion was seconded by Ogle. All members voted aye. Motion carried. Andrews asked the clerk to certify this bank was in the city limits. Jones stated they were. BUDGET NOTEBOOKS: Clerk-Treasurer Jones asked if the Council wanted to wait until all the information was collected before receiving their budget notebooks. Jones explained she did not have enough time between Tuesday morning and Thursday morning to get the salary information into the computer, combine it with the other figures and have 20 notebooks printed. She offered to get a partial printout of budget information before the Thursday meeting. The Council said that would be okay and wanted to wait on the notebooks until all the information was received. There being no further business before the Council the meeting was adjourned. Respectfully submitted. Approved ATTEST: see origninal minutes for attachments