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CARMEL PLAN COMMISSION
TUESDAY, OCTOBER 18, 2022 MEETING MINUTES
Location: Council Chambers Room,2nd Floor,Carmel City Hall
Members Present: Dubbie Buckler,Jeff Hill,Carrie Holle,Joshua Kirsh,Alan Potasnik(Vice President),Kevin Rider,Christine Zoccola
Members Absent:Brad Grabow(President),Sue Westermeier
Staff Present: Mike Hollibaugh,Rachel Keesling,Adrienne Keeling,Joe Shestak
Legal Counsel: Benjamin Legge
Time of Meeting:6:00 PM
Declaration of Quorum:Vice President Potasnik: 7 members present,we have a Quorum.
Approval of Meeting Minutes: A Motion made by Kirsh and seconded by Zoccola to approve the Sept.20,2022,PC
meeting minutes.Approved 7-0,absent Grabow,Westermeier
Communications,Bills,Expenditures,&Legal Counsel Report:
Ratification of the Comprehensive Plan Update: Adrienne Keeling,Department of Community Services:
• On Oct. 3rd the City Council (CC)approved the amended version of the proposed Comp Plan
• The Plan Commission(PC)has 60 days to approve or disapprove the amended version
• Presented the CC amended items of the proposed Comp Plan
• CC added new Objectives 1.3.7 and 1.6.17. Text was added to Objectives 1.5.6 and 1.7.6.
• CC removed the typical corridors on 146th St. from Oak Ridge Rd.to US 31, College Ave from 116th to 108th and
104th to 96th, 96th Street from Towne Rd.to I-465
111 • CC removed the following on the Thoroughfare Plan Map: the proposed Local Rd. segment between Rohrer Rd.
and Clay Terrace Blvd,the proposed arterial between College Ave and Westfield Blvd.,the conservation corridor
designation added along River Rd. between Haverton Way and 116th St., and the conservation corridor was made
darker on map.
• CC proposed several additional locations of the proposed multi-use paths, as seen on page 69 of the Comp Plan
• Staff is not in support of two of the CC amendments that we believe were not discussed at the PC level and were
the largest changes made. Changes we are in not of support are the 3 stories to 1 story along river in the White
River Development Pattern, and the removal of the proposed street connections on the Thoroughfare Plan Map.
• Staff recommends that if the PC would like to discuss these revisions,we can setup a committee meeting prior to
the November 15 PC meeting
Committee Comments:
Alan: We have until Dec. 2nd to act on the CC amendments. Our options being to approve, disapprove,or if we fail to act
in 60 days,the amended Comp Plan is adopted. If we believe we need to discuss this further, we can have a committee
meeting of the whole. Josh: I would like a little more time so I'm well informed in what we are approving. Christine:
I'm also in favor of having a meeting to discuss these amendments. Kevin: It would be unlikely that any of the changes
proposed by the PC would be agreed upon by the CC. I agree we should have a committee meeting to discuss this further.
Alan: I would ask the PC Secretary to arrange a time and date for our Comp Plan Committee meeting.
Reports,Announcements&Department Concerns: Rachel Keesling
1. Outcome of Projects at Committees:
a) Commercial:
1. Docket No. PZ-2022-00149 DP/ADLS: Clay Terrace—Hilton Tempo Hotel—3-0 favorable
recommendation to the full Plan Commission
2. Docket No. PZ-2022-00167 Z: 1st Avenue SE C2 Rezone—3-0 favorable recommendation to the
City Council
b) Residential: (Please note meeting will be held on Tuesday, October 11)
1. PZ-2022-00117 PUD: 96th and Haverstick PUD Rezone—Withdrawn.
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2. Docket No. PZ-2022-00119 DP/ADLS: Flora on Spring Mill—cont.to Nov. 1st RES COM
3. Docket No. PZ-2022-00147 OA: Legacy PUD Amendment—cont.to Nov. 1st RES COM
Public Hearings:
1. Docket No.PZ-2022-00169 DP/ADLS: Chick Fil-A—US 421.
The applicant seeks site plan and design approval for a new restaurant with drive thru on 1.97 acres. The site is
located at 9965 N. Michigan Road(previous location of Red Robin),part of West Carmel Marketplace, Block F.
It is zoned B-2 and is within the US 421 Overlay District. Filed by Joe Vavrina of HR Green, on behalf of Chick-
Fil-A.
Petitioner: Justin Lurk,Chick-Fil-A, and Joe Vavrina,Project Engineer
• Presented Site Plan with present Aerial View, this is the former Red Robin site
• Plans are to redevelop this site with a 5,000 sq. ft. building
• We will have new pedestrian connections around the site
• We will have an isolated dual flex drive-thru that is safer and keeps the guests separate from drive-thru traffic
• Order point canopies will be located throughout the drive-thru area to provide protection from the weather
• Presented landscape plan, order point canopy, building, & dumpster enclosure elevations, and signage
• We will continue to work with Staff on any outstanding comments
Public Comments: None
Department Report: Rachel Keesling
• We have been working with the Petitioner on the design and site to bring the proposal into compliance
• Staff believes we can reduce their number of proposed variances
• Staff is in support of the drive-thru location variance request
• 80 parking spaces, and 46 drive-thru stacking spaces are being proposed and is in compliance with the UDO
• We will continue to work with the Petitioner on the outstanding items listed in the Department Report
• Staff recommends this is continued to the Nov. 1st Commercial Committee with final voting authority given to the
Commercial Committee
Committee Comments:
Josh: I'm in favor of the dumpster location. Are you thinking of any traffic calming devices within the drive-thru lanes?
Jeff: How will garbage trucks maneuver safely within a fully parked parking lot? Consider the safety issues for the
employees working outside in the drive-thru lanes and for customers walking to the building entrances. Justin Lurk: The
owner will direct employees to park the farthest away from the front door and leave the spaces closest to the door for
customers. Kevin: Restaurant owners request that trash pickup is done during non-operating hours.
A Motion made by Hill and seconded by Kirsh to continue Docket No.PZ-2022-00169 DP/ADLS at the Nov. 1st
Commercial Committee with final voting authority. Approved 7-0,absent Grabow,Westermeier.
2. Docket No.PZ-2022-00172 PUD: Conner Prairie—PUD Rezone.
The applicant seeks PUD rezone approval for a west side expansion of Conner Prairie to include a farm to table
restaurant, a White River Education Center,Lodge hotel, cabins, a modern farm,parking, walking trails,and
more. The site is located at the southeast corner of 146th Street and River Road and is zoned S-1/Residence. Filed
by Jon Dobosiewicz and Jim Shinaver of Nelson& Frankenberger on behalf of Ken Alexander, Site Master Plan
Manager for Conner Prairie Museum, Inc.
Petitioner: Norman Burns,President& CEO of Conner Prairie:
• We have a partnership with the Carmel Clay Parks Dept. on the White River Vision Plan
• Our proposed Site Master Plan came out after extensive research by our Board
• We want to teach the history of our resources located within our site. Our mission is to inspire curiosity and foster
learning by providing engaging and individualized experiences for everyone.
• We are one of the most visited outdoor historic sites in America
• Our Board started in 2016 to look at ways to develop our 1,046 acres to the best use to educate the public and to
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preserve the land. 260 acres of land will remain as agriculture.
• Presented the Site Master Plan, we came up with a concept plan to do in a 30-year period
• We have identified 3 zones,presented map and renderings. Zone 1 for Food, Farm, & Energy District. Zones 2 &
3 are for Land, Water, & Energy Innovation District.
• Presented contemporary prairie style architecture images
• Presented rendering of River Road and Cherry Tree Blvd roundabout and future roundabout at Community Drive
Public Comments:
Charles McHenry,Prairie View: I'm against this proposal. I hope we are not getting played by the City of Fishers. Why
don't they develop on Fishers side? I don't want to see a parking lot and a 6-story building if they are going bring down
my property value.
Joe Luchik, Prairie View: This proposal is insensitive to the nearby residents. They completely ignoring the fact that they
are developing in a residential area. They did not reference that the hotel and commercial retail area are right across the
street from Prairie Trace Elementary. The kids walk to school in this area. This will create a lot of traffic we can't
accommodate that in a residential area.
Michael Porter, Prairie View: I have concern with the commercial aspects in the southern two zones. I have concerns for
the additional traffic in the area, safety of kids, and noise from buses and delivery trucks. Is this project economically
viable without the Hotel and Commercial aspect?It doesn't seem to fit with the idea of conservating the land.
Shanna Davidson, Prairie View: I have a toddler that will attending Prairie Trace Elementary School. I have concerns
with safety in having a conference center and hotel nearby. This is a residential community with families everywhere.
Any child within a mile radius of the school must walk, bike,or drive. We have a neighborhood filled with nature.
Dr.Deidre Pettinga, Indiana Forest Alliance: Carmel has lost so much of its forest and wildlife areas already. We should
Iencourage Conner Prairie to conserve as much forest space as possible. The proposed hardscapes will create runoff into
the White River.
Bill Kulsrud, Prairie View: If Conner Prairie expansion occurred in 1997,would Carmel Schools have built Prairie Trace
Elementary School at its current location?Absolutely not. There's too much concern of the commercial aspect. Picture a
Hampton Inn, and the parking that surrounds it. This will produce additional traffic. I have concerns for the safety of the
school children.
Sue Finkam,Northeast City Council Representative: With this development,the entire east side will entirely change.
This project is unlike any other project we have ever seen come through. My residents have concerns with the hotel and
commercial district in close approximately to the elementary school. I'm available if anyone has questions about what the
residents are saying to me. This is the first time in my 11 years with CC that I am speaking at a PC meeting.
Christine Altman, Hamilton County Commissioner: I am on the Conner Prairie Board and have worked hard on this
project. I have worked with the Township and Parks Dept. I'm very excited about this project and our involvement with
the White River asset. Having this asset so close to the kids' school and all the citizens of Carmel is tremendous.
Jim Roehrdanz, Overlook at the Legacy: Our 31-home subdivision is the most affected by this development. I would
invite each one of you to my home to see the natural area next to my home. Each person who purchased a home here did it
for the adjacent nature and greenspace. We would like this project scaled back. We object to a hotel,conference center,
and the other commercial aspects.
Rebuttal to Public Comments: Kent Alexander, Site Master Plan Project Manager
• We have publicized this project since 2018 on our website and have had numerous public meetings
• We have partnered with Carmel Clay Parks
• This is the first step and know this will be a lengthy process. This is a concept plan we are presenting.
• We are committed to work with the Carmel Engineering Dept. and Planning Staff on traffic
• We take safety seriously and is a key component we will work on. We will continue to work with the Police Dept.
• We will adapt our development plans with the existing wetlands,trees, and farmland
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• We've been partners with IDEM, DNR, White River Alliance, and Fish& Wildlife. We redesigned our trail
around an eagle's nest in the past. We take our archeological study very seriously.
• We have discussed forestation with IDEM and DNR and these are incorporated in our designs
• We don't have any 6-story buildings proposed on our campus
• We are here to work with you as this process moves forward. We believe this does not need to be rushed.
Department Report: Rachel Keesling
• Part of this site is zoned S-1 and part Legacy PUD. Some of their proposed uses are currently allowed.
• Much of the site is within the floodway and floodplain of the White River. The buildable areas are located
primarily close to and along River Road.
• We have seen other developers who want to fill in wetlands and this Petitioner will embrace the existing wetlands
and preserve and enhance these features as is
• The Comp Plan identifies this area under the White River Development Pattern. The purpose of this is for a clean,
ecological,historic, connected,and active asset for the residents of Carmel and greater region to experience,
reside in, and enjoy. The Petitioner's proposed plan aligns with this purpose statement.
• The C-3 plan identifies the White River Corridor to be studied and planned in detail
• The White River Study was started in 2016 and released in 2020. The City was an active member in this process.
• Staff has proposed many changes in the PUD document and will continue to review this. Staff agrees that this
process will take some time.
• Staff recommends this is continued to the Nov. 1st Commercial Committee for further review
Committee Comments:
Kevin: This will be a long process,and we will take in everyone's comments
Josh: I look at this as a really unique opportunity to do something very special for generations to come. It should be a
long process. To note for people who are fearful of what may happen,to remind them that we will shoot for the stars and
leave something that we are really proud of I challenge us to really push in what we can do.
Carrie: We can create something very special, but we need to be mindful we are in residential area and protect these
eastside neighbors. We need to be very careful of the commercial aspect of this. Can we look into if we have restrictions
in what we can be built next to schools?Benjamin Legge,City Legal Dept.: We can look into this.
Christine: This project has the potential to be great. I have concerns of the PUD text being very vague. As the PUD gets
approved,this is the referencing zoning document,and we need to be mindful this is what will be approved and built. I
feel development done around schools needs to be mindful. Ken Alexander: We will continue to work with Staff on the
PUD text and imagery.
Jeff: I agree with Christine,that we need to work on the PUD text and images, so we know what we are getting. Can our
infrastructure handle the additional traffic?Ken Alexander: We will continue to work with traffic engineers.
Alan: There are so many things involved with this project that will have a huge impact in this area. We need to take our
time with this and be methodical in our study of the PUD. This will take a long time. Do you have a traffic impact study?
The Committee would like to see one prior to our meeting.Not only it will impact the west side of the river,but from the
east side of the river. Ken Alexander: We won't have it by Nov. 1st but will continue to work traffic engineers and have
that done.
Josh: I feel bummed out that this will only be reviewed by the Commercial Committee. Can we ask Staff to have this
reviewed by the Committee as a whole? Norman Burns: We are happy to move past Nov. 1 St and have our meeting at a
later time once our traffic studies are done.
Kevin: Research if there are any other options for less intense development for the southern part of this site.
A Motion made by Kirsh and seconded by Rider to continue Docket No.PZ-2022-00172 PUD at future date TBD
to the Committee of a whole with final voting coming back to the full Plan Commission.
Approved 7-0,absent Grabow,Westermeier.
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3. Docket No.PZ-2022-00188 OA: Street Typology Amendments.
The applicant seeks to amend the Unified Development Ordinance in order to update references to certain street
types to match the Street Typologies and Thoroughfare Plan in the updated Carmel Comprehensive Plan. Filed by
the Department of Community Services on behalf of the Carmel Plan Commission.
Petitioner: Adrienne Keeling
• Several street types will be amended with the newly drafted Comp Plan
• Presented the Street Types that were proposed
• This amendment revises sections throughout the UDO where any of the street types are listed as a reference or are
differentiated by specific street types
• Staff recommends this is sent to a Nov. 1st Committee with final voting authority
Public Comments: None
Committee Comments: None
A Motion made by Hill and seconded by Holle to suspend the Rules of Procedure in order to vote on this item at
tonight's meeting. Approved 7-0,absent Grabow,Westermeier.
A Motion made by Hill and seconded by Kirsh to send Docket No.PZ-2022-00188 OA to the City Council with a
positive recommendation. Approved 7-0,absent Grabow,Westermeier.
4. Docket No.PZ-2022-00194 CA: 111th and Pennsylvania—C2 District Commitment Amendment.
The applicant seeks approval to modify commitments made in conjunction with rezone ordinance Z-628-17(R-1
to C-2). The site is located at the northeast corner of 111 th Street and Pennsylvania Street and is zoned C-2/Mixed
Use. Filed by the Department of Community Services on behalf of the Carmel Plan Commission.
IPetitioner: Michael Hollibaugh,Dept. of Community Services:
• We are proposing a couple of small commitment changes to Z-628-17
• It was rezoned in 2017 after a lengthy review and approval process. 12 recorded commitments were done with the
C-2 rezone approval.
• Reason for commitments is due to not a lot of confidence in the original concept plan for this redevelopment
• We propose changes to 3 of the 12 commitments. These changes are redlined and identified in the info packet.
• The road connection to Washington Blvd.will be eliminated
• Presented new concept plan, this was presented by Pedcor to the City Council at one of their meetings
• If approved, a copy of the recorded commitments would be given to the City and added to the docket
Public Comments:
Nancy Tatum,Lexington Farms: I'm speaking as a steward for the remaining forests in Carmel. I'm suggesting they
build on the fields and leave the trees alone. I'm not seeing much greenspace on the site plan. Leave the trees and you
would have greenspace. I would ask for a study on the existing forested area to be documented.
Greg Stephens, Waterwood HOA President: We have concerns of the height of the townhomes on the west side that
border our neighborhood. We would ask that the buildings are scaled down to a maximum of 35-ft. We would like to see
an expansion of the tree preservation area for this site.
Lisa Clark, 111 th Street: 106th Street is closed and what would traffic do with this development? What are the plans for
111 th Street?There are tons of vacant commercial buildings down the road. Why do we need more?This development will
add a lot more people to this area. Be sensible and make sure the roads can accommodate the extra traffic.
IAnn Marie Yarger,Northern Heights: We have 80 homes in Northern Heights, and 191 homes in Waterwood. The
Comp Plan states to protect existing neighborhood with low density. Our neighborhood is bigger than the land that will be
developed but they will have 1,000 residents,plus four commercial buildings and two parking garages. Please protect our
neighborhoods like ours. Is this a fair treatment of our neighborhoods?This property is still owned by the Meyer family.
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Jennifer Christie, Indiana Forest Alliance: The existing forest protects the surrounding residential areas. This forest acts
as a buffer from commercial uses. People want to live next to forests. This property acts as a habitat for rare species and
migrating birds. We need to protect the wildlife. Ecosystems are difficult to replace.
Craig Striegle, 114th Street: There's no reason to connect Washington Blvd.to this redevelopment. It will destroy my
yard and property value. You already have entrances off of Pennsylvania and 111 th. A 50-ft tree line is nothing, it's just
one mature oak tree deep. I don't want to see parking lots or buildings from my backyard. I'm concerned for the
additional noises that will be generated from this redevelopment.
Jill Meisenheimer, CCRZ: I would like to see this go to Committee so they can discuss the public input we heard tonight.
How can the neighbors address the addition of these 970 dwellings?Please preserve the forested area. Many concerns
were presented in the letters from adjacent neighbors.Please consider additional commitments to help protect the adjacent
residential areas.
Greg Gernhardt, 114th Street: This proposal is too dense. This will affect the existing quietness of our neighborhood.
Rebuttal to Public Comments: Mike Hollibaugh
• This project will meet the requirements of the C-2 zoning. If not,they will need to seek variances through the
BZA public hearing process.
• We will work with TAC on any additional tree preservation that can be done
• Only bike and pedestrian connections will be allowed at Washington Blvd.No vehicular connection.
• The plaza areas and trail systems will be available for public use
• The City will make the necessary infrastructure improvements for traffic
Committee Comments:
Kevin: What are the three proposed commitment changes?Mike Hollibaugh: Buildings along Pennsylvania Street will
be 3-stories or less.No vehicular access to Washington Blvd. All buildings around the public green will be allowed to
have retail and commercial uses. Kevin: The things discussed by public tonight are not being discussed at tonight's
hearing. When the project comes through for the DP/ADLS review,those items would be discussed then. We are only
ruling on the 3 commitment changes.
Christine: I want to verify,with this being a C-2 zoning district,the public hearing will not be heard by the full Plan
Commission, but rather at a public hearing conducted by the Plan Commission Hearing Officer. Mike Hollibaugh:
Correct.
A Motion made by Buckler and seconded by Zoccola to suspend the Rules of Procedure in order to vote on this
item at tonight's meeting. Approved 7-0,absent Grabow,Westermeier.
A Motion made by Buckler and seconded by Zoccola to approve Docket No.PZ-2022-00194 CA.
Approved 7-0,absent Grabow,Westermeier.
Old Business
5. Docket No.PZ-2022-00149 DP/ADLS: Clay Terrace—Hilton Tempo Hotel.
The applicant seeks site plan and design approval for a new hotel on 1 acre. It will be 5 stories tall (70')with 150
rooms and a rooftop restaurant. The site is located at 14311 Clay Terrace Blvd. in Clay Terrace. The site is zoned
PUD(Z-662-20). Filed by Mark Leach of Faegre Drinker on behalf of Clay Terrace Partners LLC.
Petitioner: Mark Leach
• We believe that this hotel project meets all the standards of the PUD
• We have addressed all outstanding comments and ask for your approval at tonight's meeting
Department Report: Rachel Keesling
• The Petitioner addressed all of our outstanding items. They clarified that Clay Terrace's intention of the central
greenspace was always to repurpose it. They provided additional details for lighting, long-term indoor bicycle
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parking, and rooftop screening of the mechanical units.
• The design intent and materials of the building was provided by the architect
• The pedestrian trail next to US 31 will be constructed prior to any construction
• Staff recommends approval of this item at tonight's meeting
Recap of Commercial Committee: Alan Potasnik,Chair:
• I will defer to Staffs report
A Motion made by Kirsh and seconded by Rider to approve Docket No.PZ-2022-00149 DP/ADLS.
Approved 8-0,absent Grabow,Westermeier
Meeting adjourned at 8:24 p.m.
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Joe estak PC Secretary Alan Potasnik Vice President
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