HomeMy WebLinkAboutCombined Committee Mintues 10-01-24City of Carmel
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Combined Residential & Commercial Committee 10-1-24
Carmel Plan Commission
COMBINED RESIDENTIAL & COMMERCIAL COMMITTEE
Tuesday, October 1st , 2024 Meeting Minutes
LOCATION: Council Chambers, City Hall
Members Present: Joshua Kirsh (Co-Chair), Sue Westermeier (Co-Chair), Dubbie Buckler, Shannon Minnaar, Christine
Zoccola
Members Absent: Adam Campagna, Jeff Hill
Staff Present: Mike Hollibaugh (Director), Rachel Keesling (Planning Administrator), Bric Butler (Recording Secretary),
Alexia Lopez (Planning Administrator), Benjamin Legge, (Legal Counsel)
Meeting Time: 6:00 p.m.
1. Docket No. PZ-2024-00028 PUD: Towne 146 PUD Rezone.
The applicant seeks PUD rezone approval to allow a mixed-use neighborhood consisting of single-family homes,
townhomes, and neighborhood commercial. The site is located at 2275 W 146th Street and is zoned S-
1/Residence. Filed by Jim Shinaver and Jon Dobosiewicz of Nelson & Frankenberger on behalf of Lennar Homes
of Indiana, LLC.
Petitioner: Jon Dobosiewicz:
• Dobosiewicz began by addressing that they had received and reviewed many letters from nearby residents
regarding concerns over the commercial component of the project and rentals. He wanted to provide
clarification that there was no longer a commercial component and a slight reduction in density from 5.87 to
5.5 units per acre by the removal of a few of the housing units. He displayed site plans showing those updates
as well as another version of the updated site plan showing a proposed separate pond and the configuration of
the neighborhood if that version of the project went forward instead of the preferred combined pond plan.
• Dobosiewicz provided updated elevations of the townhomes, two story single family, and ranch homes. All
housing types will be at least partial masonry and most of the two story and townhomes will be alley access.
Architecture is still being finalized and under review with staff.
• Sidewalk will be placed across the entirety of the northern frontage row running from where it connects into
the Ambleside sidewalk all the way to the entry point on Towne Road. There will also be a path connection to
the path along 146th Street.
• The updated site plan with the single large pond proposal allows for 75% tree preservation, a significant
increase from the original plan.
• Amenities per the updated plan include open park area, a gazebo, a boardwalk out over the pond, trails
through the tree preservation area, fire pit, playground, kayak launch, and outdoor seating.
• A revised traffic study was provided that indicated total peak hour trips would be reduced from 92 to 48 in the
morning and in the afternoon from 176 to 62.
• A woodland evaluation was provided to show the increase in preservation area under the new plan.
• Carmel Engineering Department did not make a recommendation either for or against the combined pond
proposal sought by Lennar, but they did state that the single expanded combined pond would have greater
water quality benefits in comparison to two separate ponds.
Tom Bedsole – Residential Restate Attorney:
• Bedsole on behalf of Lennar spoke regarding the legalities and possible ramifications of various rental
restrictions being placed within the PUD document or covenants of the proposed neighborhood. He raised
concerns over VA and FHA financing being unable to be utilized if rental restrictions were too severe. He
also feared while discrimination was not the intent of wanting the restrictions that courts could rule that they
unintentionally caused disparate impacts that violated the Fair Housing Act. He provided an anecdote out of
Kokomo Indiana of a court case about rental restrictions where an elderly woman injured herself and needed
to move out of her residence and the family tried to rent the home while she was not in it. The neighborhood
covenants prevented that, and a lawsuit went up the the Indiana Supreme court which decided in a close 3-2
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vote that such restrictions were legal. He made the point that while the court ruled in favor of the restrictions
at the time he is not sure how a federal court would rule and that his client did not desire to be part of any
litigation in a discrimination case to find out as it would be costly and damaging to the company reputation.
• He reiterated that he could not say for certain whether any restrictions would be legal or illegal and that he
understood the underlying concern of why the Plan Commission wanted the restrictions but asked to have a
dialogue to see if they could find other solutions.
Department Report: Alexia Lopez:
• Lopez stated that over 25 different comments remained to be addressed and that at the meeting tonight they
hoped to cover some of those. She recommended the petition be continued on to the next committee meeting.
Committee Comments:
Minnaar did not think it was a fair characterization to say the Plan Commission’s intent was to have a “rental ban”
which she herself thought would be illegal. She stated that they were attempting to put rental restrictions in place
such as a requirement to hold and own a property for three years before it could be rented so that institutional
buyers would be deterred from coming in and buying up full blocks of homes, particularly the townhouses. She
stated that any such restrictions would have robust hardship clauses, and that with the help of a real estate attorney
when she was president of her HOA, they created similar restrictions for her own neighborhood that she believes
are legal.
Kirsh asked Bedsole what in his opinion would be a good solution to hamper institutional buying. They had come
up with the solution outlined by Commissioner Minnaar, but he wanted to hear other ideas as well. Zoccola
echoed Kirsh in his desire to hear possible solutions to preserve individual homeownership opportunities.
Tony Bagato, Director of Entitlements for Lennar Homes, spoke on the matter of rental restrictions saying it was
a particular concern for Lennar which is also in the mortgage business for many of their communities through
Lennar Mortgage and that any sort of lawsuit regarding rental restrictions could likely fall on them due to their
role as the lender. Bagato did state that Lennar is willing to work with the Plan Commission by agreeing to create
a ban on “corporate buyers” (a definition of which would have to be ironed out by legal experts on both the side
of Lennar and the City of Carmel) and a limitation on how many individual properties can be bought by an
individual. Two was ideal to Bagato as it still allowed for some individuals to buy one property to live in while
having another one as a personal investment. As a less preferred secondary option Bagato was open to including a
requirement of one year ownership from time of purchase until a property could be rented on the condition of
hardship clauses covering not only financial and health related issues but also making carveouts for FHA and VA
loans allowing properties purchased with those to have more flexibility if needed.
Minnaar requested further details from Bagato on how exactly corporate renters would be banned and Bagato
stated that they could require purchases to be in an individual’s name not an LLC. or another corporate name.
Minnaar went on to state that her own neighborhood as well as many more around the country were beginning to
put in rental restrictions without previsions for VA or FHA and they were not being challenged so she inquired if
this was just something for new builds. Bagato stated that yes it was because it was a new build neighborhood and
that down the line once the HOA took over the neighborhood that could decide to makes changes if they want but
then if done at that time it would not likely implicate Lennar in any possible legal challenges, unlike if the
restrictions were put in by the company on the front end.
Kirsh requested the opinion of Carmel legal counsel, Benjamin Legge. Legge stated that doing the ban was
possible but potentially subject to challenge. He went on to elaborate that part of the assessment by the court that
would arise during a challenge would be to see if a disparate impact existed, if one did exist but could be proven
to be for good reason and not for a discriminatory reason, and that it could be shown there was no other way to
achieve the desired outcome, such a restriction could possibly stand up to scrutiny. He then went on to stress that
it was important for the Plan Commission to still consider the alternatives.
Zoccola questioned if the one-year timeline was sufficient or if a longer time period was possibly needed.
Minnaar stated she preferred calling it a condition of ownership not a ban regarding the rental restrictions. Kirsh
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believed the Plan Commission would be open to a compromise of two units being the ownership maximum within
the neighborhood. Minnaar went on to ask the petitioner if they could look at including a percentage cap on the
number of overall rentals in the neighborhood citing that once a certain percentage of rentals is reached in a
neighborhood it does begin to have an impact on property values.
Zoccola inquired about updates regarding the pond diagrams. Dobosiewicz then displayed a new depiction of the
updated combined pond proposal designed to include better tree preservation as well as displaying a depiction of a
separate pond. Zoccola stated she was still concerned about shared management of a combined pond between
HOAs and preferred the way the neighborhoods were buffered from each other in the separate pond plan. Kirsh
stated that to him water quality was the most important factor under consideration and was supportive of the
combined pond as it provided the best water quality plan. Dobosiewicz reiterated the stormwater improvements
this plan will have for the area. Kirsh then inquired about what Hamilton County thought of the combined pond
and Dobosiewicz stated that like the City of Carmel they did not take an official position on which pond plan they
preferred but did agree about the benefits of the combined pond plan.
Kirsh inquired about the orientation of the homes on the outer perimeter of the neighborhood wanting to make
sure the garages were not facing outwards towards the main roads. Dobosiewicz confirmed that they would not be
and would be inward facing alley access garages.
Westermeier inquired if there had been any updates to the sidewalks and paths since the previous meeting.
Dobosiewicz provided updates that included various new connections that were not indicated on the prior concept
plan. He also showcased the proposed boardwalk out over the pond. Westemeier then asked about auto
connectivity to Towne Road, Saddle Creek, and Ambleside. Dobosiewicz informed her that there would be no
direct access to Saddle Creek, and that the only access to Ambleside would be indirectly via the frontage road. No
direct street connections were proposed for those neighborhoods.
Lopez requested that the green path on the displayed concept map be extended all the way out to Towne Road.
Dobosiewicz responded that the blue sidewalk in that area would be upgraded to be pathway, likely paved with
concrete for aesthetic purposes.
Kirsh asked the petitioner to reach out to the Parks Department regarding the boardwalk for design improvement
ideas to be more in line with what they installed in Central Park.
Minnaar asked what the reduction in townhomes was. The petitioner clarified that they went from 60 down to 58
townhomes in the proposed development.
CONTINUED TO NOV. 7TH COMMITTEE
2. Docket No. PZ-2024-00099 DP/ADLS: Spring Mill Shops.
The applicant seeks Development Plan and ADLS approval for three new multi-tenant commercial buildings
totaling 14,870 square feet. The site is located at the NW corner of 116th Street and Spring Mill Road, within
Jackson’s Grant Village. The buildings have specific addresses of 11675, 11745, and 11785 Village Corner Court.
It is zoned PUD, under Jackson’s Grant Village (Z-653-20). Filed by Sean McKinnies of Republic Development.
Petitioner: Shawn Curran – Curran Architecture:
• Curran displayed updated elevations of the three proposed buildings that attempted to incorporate staff and
commissioner comments from the previous meeting. The major change consisted of a redesign of the roof
from a single long gabled roof to a roof broken up into portions of gabled roof running opposite directions
separated by portions of flat rooftop.
Department Report: Rachel Keesling:
• Keesling summarized the changes in the most recent version presented by the petitioner. She mentioned as
he did that the major change was the reconfiguration of the roof design, but she also included updates about
more significant awnings being added as well as the doors on the Spring Mill Road side being expanded
from single doors to double door entrances into the tenant spaces.
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• Keesling noted while it was an improvement from the original design that she felt there was still more work
to be done to bring the design into line with what was provided in the character images of the PUD for the
commercial space. It was her opinion that more needed to be done to make each tenant space look distinct
from each other to give them a “built over time” look.
Committee Comments:
Buckler was under the impression that the new design looked “weird” as if a portion of the roof had blown off.
The petitioner responded that it was changed in that fashion to try and address the massing issued raised at prior
meetings, and that the overall design of the structure was done in such a way as to take into consideration the
signage needs of the future tenants. In response to the comment about signage needs Keesling responded that the
primary concern was not the needs of the tenants for signage but that it was to make sure the buildings were done
in the right manner. Minnaar inquired why the roof design was changed to begin with as she had missed the last
meeting, and the petitioner reiterated it was to address the concerns over massing.
Westermeier inquired about if the beige and grey neutral colors on the renderings provided were going to be the
actual colors. Curran indicated that was the plan and brought out sample materials to show the committee.
Westermeier then asked staff if the colors were what they were concerned about. Keesling stated it was not the
colors that were so much of concern it was more so the roof massing.
Kirsh stated that he found some older architecture along Broad Ripple Ave. that he thought was more in line with
what the Plan Commission originally wanted to go towards with the design. He questioned if the design should go
back to the beginning to make sure the design came out in a “timeless” nature.
CONTINUED TO NOV. 7TH COMMITTEE
3. Docket No. PZ-2024-00122 CA: Meridian Trails Commitment Amendment.
4. Docket No. PZ-2024-00123 V: Meridian Trails Height Variance.
5. Docket No. PZ-2024-00130 V: Meridian Trails Parking Variance.
The applicant seeks approval for commitment amendments and two variances to allow a new 55+ age restricted
housing development. The site is located at 201 W 106th St. and is zoned B-1/ Business. Filed by Jim Shinaver
and Jon Dobosiewicz of Nelson & Frankenberger on behalf of Steve Pittman and Justus Companies.
Petitioner: Jon Dobosiewicz:
• Dobosiewicz began by providing a brief description of the property location and the site plan. The location
would be surrounded by Illinois Street to the east, 106th Street to the north, and a small residential
neighborhood to the west. The site would consist of a large four-story courtyard building consisting of
mainly residential units, but a small portion would be dedicated to commercial. The rest of the site would
consist of surface parking and four coverage garage bays with multiple garage units per bay. The garages
would be located outside of the required tree preservation area. There would be two points of access, one
off 106th Street and one off Illinois Street. Proposed building architecture with materials labeled was
provided but indicated by the petitioner that such would be discussed later if the project was approved when
it had to come back to the Plan Commission for DP ADLS.
• Intensity of the use was addressed via a comparison of peak AM/PM trips for the old use of an office verses
the new apartment use. Peak trips for the office use were 143/142 verses the much lower peak trips of the
apartments that are projected to be 33/42.
• A parking study conducted by Justus was presented citing multiple sources they believed lent credibility to
their parking calculations. The study also provided numbers for parking at their other locations already in
existence or under construction. All of which feel between the 1.0 and 1.3 space per unit range.
• Height of the building would not change significantly to the eye as the height increase for portions of the
building would only be due to a downward change in the grade of the building.
• The distance away of nearby existing residences was provided. The nearest being a house to the west 185’
from the proposed building façade. The other remaining nearby homes ranger from approximately 220’ to
400’+ away from the proposed building.
• Buffering plans were provided that showcased images of the existing tree line on the property that would be
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maintained as well as images of a proposed 8-foot wall that has already been partially erected on the
property line that would be extended to cover the entire southern property line and about 3/4ths of the
western property line. Additional plantings such as arborvitaes would also be added to increase the
landscape buffer from what already is naturally occurring.
• Outdoor lighting would consist of two different elements. The first being parking lot lighting a maximum of
15-foot pole height with full cut off LED lights, and second would be full cut off LED balcony lighting.
• Two additional commitments were added to the original commitments. The first being language clarifying
that all design will be finalized during the DP ADLS and that what had been provided regarding site and
building design during this process had just been theoretical until approved later. The second added
language that the units will be built to comply with HOPA (Housing for Older Persons Act) regulations.
Department Report: Alexia Lopez:
• Staff was supportive of the change of use from office space to a 55+ community with a small commercial
component. Overall staff was pleased with the site design that allowed adequate buffering via tree
preservation and by moving the building closer to Illinois Street.
• Staff provided a favorable recommendation to return the petition to the Plan Commission for final approval.
Committee Comments:
Minnaar inquired about three different topics. First, regarding how conversations had gone with neighbors in the
abutting Rosado Hill neighborhood. Secondly, she desired confirmation on lighting requirements being fully
satisfied, and thirdly she stated she understood the thought process on the parking but still thought in a wealthier
community like Carmel, auto ownership numbers could be higher at this location over the others. Walt Justus
confirmed that they had productive conversations with the nearby residents and were in the process of finalizing
details about the wall construction. Regarding lighting Dobosiewicz confirmed that there were enhanced
standards within the commitments and what he went over in the presentation was an example of those enhanced
standards being enacted. Regarding the parking concerns Angela Miller, EVP and COO of the Justus Companies,
provided a justification for what had been requested. She stated that per their demographic studies 40-50% of
women over the age of 75 no longer drive so that reduces the number of spaces they need significantly, and that
they already have other facilities in higher end communities with similar parking ratios as what’s requested
without having issues.
Zoccola stated her support for the change of use from office space to 55+ housing, feeling as though more than
enough existing office space was already built or approved. She then requested confirmation that the 10%
maximum stucco and EIFS commitment was still applicable. Dobosiewicz confirmed it was still in place. She
went on to then to inquire over what the status of the wall was and about protection of the trees where the wall
was going to be placed. Dobosiewicz stated that the wall design and placement in relation to the property line
was still being discussed and that in order to protect the trees the wall would stairstep around them so they would
not have to be removed for construction. Zoccola’s final question was regarding apartment size as she believed
she saw somewhere that they would be relatively small. Miller told her that they would be adequality sized with
an average being 1100 sq. ft. The smaller one bedrooms being 800-900 sq. ft. with the larger two bedrooms up to
1500 sq. ft. Zoccola was satisfied with this clarification.
Westermeier requested additional information on what amenities would be available to the residents of the
community. Justus informed her that a key component of their communities is social programming and that they
would have various onsite activities and off-site trips planned for residents. Westermeier was then still wanting
more information particularly on outdoor activities and amenities. Dobosiewicz stated that there would be trail
connections on the property as well as a large courtyard with a pool and hardscaped area. Westermeier then
moved on to her final concern over what was in her opinion the inadequacy of the guest parking. Justus reassured
her that they had sufficiently planned for their needs.
Buckler asked about trail connections to Illinois and 106th Street, and stated she wanted to see them on the plan if
they were proposed. Dobosiewicz confirmed that they were proposed and would be shown on the plan when it
came through the DP ADLS process. She then went onto reiterate similar concerns over parking as Westermeier
did stating that Carmel could very well be an aberration for the number of cars per person compared to
communities like the one in Danville. Dobosiewicz stated that while he was not arguing her point and that her
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concerns were valid that over the past decade staff had found that 1.5-1.6 parking spaces per unit for non-age
restricted apartments, that many times have two or three bedrooms with multiple residents driving per unit, was
adequate so they felt the request for 1.3 for the age restricted complex was justified. She finalized her comments
by providing suggestions such as incorporating into the development outdoor workout equipment areas and large
swings like those found in Midtown Plaza. She also stated she was overall supportive of the change in use to age
restricted residences over the original office building proposal.
Zoccola addressed the petitioner regarding the proposed wall to provide cautionary advice to make sure that the
wall was not constructed in such a way as to block off the entirety of the tree line from the proposed development.
She wanted the residents to be able to enjoy the preserved green space.
Kirsh stated he wanted a hybrid approach to the tree preservation area preserving what is good but also clearing
out what is dead, invasive, or scrub and infilling those areas with better replacement vegetation and maybe
exploring the possibility of a wall only in certain areas. He also suggested the petitioner look into shared parking
agreements with surrounding businesses and explore the possibility of using TIF funding to provide enhanced
water quality improvement measures.
Motion by Buckler, seconded by Zoccola, to send the petition back to the full Plan Commission with a
favorable recommendation.
APPROVED 5-0 (Absent: Campagna & Hill)
6. Docket No. PZ-2024-00156 ADLS Amend: 401 Penn Exterior Building Modifications.
The applicant seeks design approval for exterior modifications including architectural material changes, addition
of an entry pergola, and updates to lighting and signage. The site is located at 401 Pennsylvania Pky. It is zoned
MC /Meridian Corridor and is not located within an overlay zone. Filed by Cade Brummer of NSPJ Architects.
Petitioner: John Vandenbark- JLL Indianapolis (Leasing Agent):
• Vandenbark identified himself as the leasing agent for the building in question, he was not with the
architecture firm NSPJ. He informed the committee that both the tenants of the building as well as the owner
desire to make updates to the property exterior to modernize it. The proposed modernization updates consist
of a reskin of the building with a metal composite material on the second and third floors as well as a new
glass entryway and pergola fronting that new entryway.
Department Report: Rachel Keesling:
• Keesling stated that the petitioner desires to cover up much of the existing brick with metal paneling to make
it look more like the two buildings flanking it that are constructed out of precast concrete panels. Yet due to
the nature of the brick being notable iron spotted style staff thinks it irresponsible to cover it or paint it when
it should instead be showcased.
• Keesling did indicate ways in which the building could be improved upon while maintaining its character
such as replacement of the dated and cracking limestone windowsills or removal of the east and west
triangular prism glass vestibules.
• Staff recommended denial of the petition in its current form.
Committee Comments:
Minnaar concurred with staff that covering the brick would not be in the best interest of upholding the
architectural integrity of the building. She thought that adding the metal would increase monotony of the area by
making it very similar to the buildings flanking it and that the paneling gave it the look of a “barndominium”.
Westermeier suggested instead of denying the project that they instead continue the project to the next committee
to give the petitioner time to work with staff to create an acceptable exterior updates plan.
Buckler agreed with comments about the cladding increasing monotony and liked Keesling’s idea to remove the
vestibules because they could be “blinding” when driving by the building certain times when the sun hits them.
CONTINUED TO NOV. 7TH COMMITTEE
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7. Docket No. PZ-2024-00162 ADLS AMEND: 3rd Shot Pickleball.
The applicant seeks design approval for site and minor exterior building modifications to retrofit an industrial
building to a pickleball facility. The site is located at 4400 W. 96th Street, Unit 150. It is zoned I-1/Industrial and
is not located within an overlay zone. Filed by Chris Badger of Badger Engineering on behalf of owner, Dustin
Deguevara.
Petitioner: Dustin Deguevara:
• Deguevara gave a brief background of the company behind Third Shot Pickleball speaking about its origins
in Colorado where it currently has two locations operating, one of which is the largest privately owned
pickleball facility in the county.
• The Carmel facility is planned to consist of 15 courts open to the public and will have membership fees for
heavy users who would like to use the courts daily. The facility would also include ping pong and cornhole
as secondary entertainment options. The venue would also sell beer, wine, and concessions and have two
large conference rooms for events.
Spero Pulos – Lee and Associates:
• Spero indicated that the business would be using approximately 45,000 sq. ft. of the approximately 100,000
sq. ft. building in its northern half.
• He requested they be permitted to construct an additional 14 spaces near an existing 15 parking spaces on the
northwestern side of the building and to convert an industrial drive-in door into a protruding vestibule style
second entryway. The existing ramp on site would also be adjusted to meet ADA standards.
• Signage variance applied for with hearing and approval still pending.
• Working with arborist about additional required trees in the southeast corner of the property abutting 96th St.
• Most of the parking directly surrounding the building will be sufficient for day-to-day operations of the
business but a large overflow parking lot on the southern side of the property is available for large events and
tournaments that may increase normal parking needs.
• Modifications to dumpster locations and screening as well as addition of bike parking is underway.
• Additional sidewalk shall be added along the eastern side of the building to create a fully connected pathway
to the east side entrance.
Department Report: Rachel Keesling:
• The additional parking on the west side of the property shall require a consent to encroach agreement from the
Carmel Engineering Department and Board of Public Works.
• Sign variance required because Mayflower Park Drive is a private street so there is no public street frontage to
allow for a sign. This is a common variance often seen by staff.
• Staff provided a favorable recommendation subject to the condition of finalization of all review comments.
Committee Comments:
Minnaar inquired about the dumpster enclosure requirements and Keesling assured her that the dumpster
regulations are part of the review process and that she is working with the petitioner to make sure one currently
non-enclosed dumpster will become properly enclosed.
Motion by Buckler, seconded by Zoccola, to approve the petition on condition of finalization of outstanding
staff review comments.
APPROVED 5-0 (Absent Campagna & Hill)
Adjourned at 8:30 PM
_______________________________ ______________________________
Bric Butler – Recording Secretary Josh Kirsh- Committee Co-Chair