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HomeMy WebLinkAboutCRC-02-12-03 CRC Meeting. Wednesday, Febmary 12, 2003 CARMEL REDEVELOPMENT COMMISSION MeetingIPlanning Session Wednesday, February 12, 2003 The meeting was called to order by President Rick Roesch .at II :05 a.m. Commission members present were Luci Snyder, Ed Burkc and Ron Carter constituting a quorum. Also present were Karl Haas, Laurence M. Lillig, Jr., Kate Weese, Wayne Wilson, Steve Engelking, Les Olds, Kelli Laurence, Mayor Brainard, and Bob Olson. Phyllis Morrissey as support staff. A ward of Bid for Storm water Detention Area Mr. aIds recommended the contract be awarded to Gradex, including Alternate #4, using the 60 inch perforated pipe which is a deduct so the cost is $537,950.00. The concept has been reviewed with Ms. Weese. Mr. Burke moved the CRC accept the bid by Gradcx as outlined by Mr. Olds. Following a second by Ms. Snyder the motion was unanimously approved. Mr. Olds noted they did take an alternate for the sidewalks for $55,000. The sidewalks will match those by the reflecting pond and run on down to Third Street. He recommended these be done later. Approval of Minutes Mr. Carter moved the eRC approve the minutes of January 14,2003. Following a second by Mr. Burke, the motion was unanimously approved. Report from Mavor Mayor.Brainard had nothing to report at this time. (He then left the meeting.) Report from Director Mr'-Engelkingreported the sandbags were in pla'ce by the Police Department. A beehive drain ~ill be installed. Mr. Engelking sent a letter to Muldoon's infoll11ing them it was their responsibility to keep their sidewalks clear. Mi'.Engelking talked to Mr. David Truster from Pizza King and was informed they plan to move by the end of February following renovation of a location in Old Town. ReDort from Mr. Lillig Scott Brewer, the City Urban Forester, will probably attend the next meeting for clarification on what has been approvecHor the landscaping on Shapiro's site. The CRC's' architectural control committee asked Mr. Lillig to get copies to them of the two differelll plans so they can see where the discrepancy lies. Until this is resolved the final Certificate of Occupancy cannot be issued. CRC Meeting. Wednesday. February t2. 2003 Report from Ms. Weese Underground Detention Ms. Weese explained how the underground detention will work using the perforated pipe. She expressed a concem about erosion control and that the stone supporting the pipe will fill up with sediment. She alerted the CRC that the bidniight goup slightly if she has to request some additions to the work, such as filter cioth. She noted it is critical that.erosion from the construction projects be controlled around the site. Mr. aids said Pedcor would be asked to pump water away from their site to the wetlands area. Police Station Flooding Problem Ms. Weese said the sandbags by'the Police Station should not be considered apemlanent fix. Mr. Roesch askcd Mr. Haas to look into it. Ms. Weese stated the Shapiro contractor bid on the project and that they need to be held accountable for the work asit was bid. Mr. Haas said he would set up a meeting with the contractor, Chris McComas, Ms. Weese, Mr. aids, and Mr. Shapiro. Mr. Engelking said there will be no cost to the CRC for the sandbags or the grate for the temporary repair. Old Town Improvements Ms. Weese said bids for the street improvements'a! First Street in Old Town will be opened next Wednesday, February 19, at the Board of Public Works and Safety Meeting. The work should begin March 151 and be completed in' four months: This is work being done by the City. Financial Report . Ms. Mielke reported the January 3\ balance was $311,374.00. She distributed cash flow projections. Approval of Invoices Invoices for a total of $36,536.56 were submitted for payment. Mr. Burke moved the invoices be approved. Following a second by /vir. Carter, the. motion was unanimously' approved. Mr. Engelking reported the first invoice has been received against the latest HUD grant. He asked for permission, as the executive director. of the grant, to review and approve.the invoices for the stormwater detention area as they come in and then have Ms. Mielke go ahead and draw down from the grant money. This will expedite the. process. An updated document will be presented at each CRC meeting via the packets. He noted the total amount of the grant is $566,532. Anything'spentover that will be paid by the CRe. This was approved. 2 CRCMeeting, Wednesday. February 12,2003 Report from A ttornev Huffer Prooertv Mr. Has reported there was a hearing about the Huffer condemnation, specifically about whether CRC followed appropriate procedures and whether they had any challenges to the taking. There was little orno evidence that either Huffers or Goodyear introduced to suggest that we had done anything outside of exactly how it was supposed to be done so they are now left challenging this on the basis that it is 'just generally un-American". Mr. Roesch said the CRC goes to a lot of trouble to follow the procedures and "I think in this case we went that extra step in hiring Mike Shaver's firm to talk about blight and fit that to the statute with attorney's advice. Wedon't even have to do that. We can, as a group under statute, just decide something's blighted. When something like this comes up, I am really glad that we had done everything right and we could not be attacked. That's really important." Eden Enterprises Mr. T-Iaas: One of.the suppliers on ,the reflecting pond has filed a lien but you can't really lien public project, but what it means is that we can't pay Eden unless we make sure that supplier is paid also. So it's not a lien on the project; it's more like a lien on the funds. We have other issues with Eden anyway so we need to be careful not to pay them. Ms. Snyder asked for clarification on the liens against public projects, noting there was a problem with Pennsylvania Street where a contractor is not paying his subcontractors. Mr. Haas replied the subcontractor needs to notify the City they'venal been paid and then the City will either withhold the funds or cut two party checks. Time Warner Mr. Haas: We're ready to pursue some damage claims against Time Warner that will require the cooperation of the City and Doug Haney's office because the franchise agreement is with the City: I sent around an email explaining what the damages were. Muldoon's Mr. Haas: I've sent emails to Jack Hittle and there's been no response. The last email said that if there were no response there would be nothing to discuss at this meeting inte~ms of a proposal from them or an acceptance of a term sheet that I had sent and that I expected we would have to proceed with valuing their leasehold estate. There are appraisers who are engaged to do that so that's. now in the works and we'll have values by the next meeting. Ms. Snyder: He has never contacted you at all? Mr. Haas: No, not since the last meeting. Ms. Weese: Do you have confirmation that Mr. Hittle received the emails? Mr. Haas: Yes. 3 CRC Meeting. Woonesday. February 12. 2003 Shapiro's Mr. Haas: There are some issues on. Shapiro's that we'll have to resolve when plans are filed. There's still an open issue when andJlOw mueh of Veteran's Way will be completed and who's responsible for paving the parking lot now that it's clean. We don't need to do anything with those today but they are opcn issues. Ms. Weese: When you get to discussion on Veteran's Way, I'd like to make surewe consider the Fire Department and the use of that street ifit is to become the exit route for the fire trucks and/or this group wants the qty to look into a signal out on Range Line Road. I'd like to be a part of that discussion before it gets too far along. Parcel #5 Mr. Haas: Appraisers are engaged to appraise the parcels differently. One is going to appraise the [five] individual parcels: the frontage along.Range Line Road, the next pieces back and then the ones we've never offered before. So we'll get separate values on each of those, moving east to west. One appraiser will value the property that way. The other appraiser will value. itas a single parcel with a blended value. We have a "C" shaped .piece which excludes the mall and amphitheater area. Common Construction Wage Committee Mr. Haas asked Ms. Weese if the other departments had appointed their representatives to the Common Construction Wage Committee for the next six months. Affinnative. Mr. Burke moved the CRC use the same appointees as other City departments. Following a second by Ms. Snyder, the motion was unanimously approved. Pedcor Mr. Haas: The final item is resolving the issue with Pedcor whether fees would be waived. The developer was very certain that in the initial negotiations, they had been led to believe that there would be fee waivers. The Redevelopment Commission did not take a position with regard to fee waivers because they are not ours to waive. The Mayor's office is supportive of there being fee waivers so long as it can be done legally. The way in which it can be done legally is for us to change the project agreement sowe are responsible for obtaining those pennits and as a sister agency, the City is in a position to waive those fees for us in a way that they wouldn't be for a developer. To affect this we need to have an amendment to the project agreement that shifts that responsibility fromPedcor to the Redevelopment Commission to obtain those pem1its with the understanding that those fees are going to be waived. The amount of the fees are $10,000-$12,000 for Community Services, sewer hookup fees are $50,000. The developer is taking the position that if they had any idea ihey would be charged those fees, thcywouldn't have agreed to the up front loading on the purchase price. 4 CRC Meeting. Wednesday. February 12. 2003 Ms. Snyder asked if the Mayor had said to Pedcor that the City would be amenable to waiving fees. Mr. Roesch: I talked with Bruce [Cordingly] about thfs and he was very clear that the Mayor did not make him a promise. !twas'one of these things that was construed in the private/public partnership. Mr. Roesch continued: We do have,even a bigger issue with Kosene. Their impact fees are much greater because of the sewer hookups, almost $300,000. Another issue is that we have a joinder agreement [with the Township] for the parks fees and with those I'm not sure we could or should even entertain waiving the park impact fees. [These fees' apply only to residential projects and are $527 per unit.] Going back to when the Commission was originally formed, we told a number of prospects that we would help with fees. Redevelopment Commissions in a public/private, partnership do try to alleviate fees because in many cases you're asking developers LO do tliings which are partially City things. It's tied in;'it's hard to separate out what's public and what's private, [ philosophically think that because of the great additional expense in developing in City Center, because of four sided buildings, because of the architecturaL standards, I think we should do whatever is necessary to try to help them. I think we'll get a better project. In Kosene's case, the impact fees are not only going to eat up all their profit in the first phase, buLit's going to put them in the hole on the first phase. This is a CRC policy to address. Ms. Snyder: I don't have a problem waiving fees at all. This,was a blighted area and had marginally and failing retail and no development at all in some areas. But you're right;- we need a policy. And it isn't our policy to waive fees that aren't our fees. We have to make sure the City is on board with this. Mr. Roesch: We did have a conference call Friday and the Mayor said he was for waiving fees. Ms. Snyder: Did wewaive any fees for Shapiro? Mr. Engelking: We waived the permit fees, but it was over objections. It was in the project agreement and signed before it was called to anybody'sattention. But I think the other fees were paid. Discussion followed. Mr. Engelking pointed ounhe ordinance as it is now written 'would have to be changed, depending on which fees were wai ved and for whom. 5 CRC Meeting. Wednesday. February 12.2003 Mr. Haas pointed out fee deferral could be done rather than waiving fees. The Mayor had suggested it is within the discretion without violating the ordinance to defer the payment of fees. Mr. Roesch noted that would help cash flow. Mr. Roesch continued: We have several issues here. We need to resolve whether we are waiving fees for Pedcor. We have the vehicle to do that. We need to think about poiicies, going ahead, for waiving fees and what fees to do. Perhaps there should be some more discussion aboUl that. My opinion in Pedcor's case, I think we should waive those. For Kosene, we can decide that and discuss it with the City departments. Mr. Burke moved the CRC amend the project agreement for the CRC to undertake responsibility to obtain permits on behalf of Pede or with the understanding that because the CRC is obtaining the permits tljemselves, and it is a public agency, that those fees will be waived. Following a second by Mr. Carter, the.motion was unanimously approved. [Mr. Koven was not at the meeting for this vote, but told Mr. Roesch to have it be noted in the minutes that if this issue came up for a vote, he would vote against it.] Report from Architect Mr. Olds noted the packets were sent out and asked if anyone had any questions about the information. Ms. Snyder said she wanted to discuss the pond. She said it appears there are several things wrong with it and then asked Mr. Olds for his opinion. [Councilor Rundle arrived at 11 :45 a.m.] Mr. Olds: The main issue with the pond is the filtration system'. We've also heard some concerns about the underground electrical room. We know what the correctable problems are. the damage which has occurred to the room; all of which have been recorded and noted. Meetings have been held with the contractor, the fountain designers, the installers. They have had, through their own fault, numerous problems occur because they did nOI protect the underground chamber during construction with erosion control. Mr. Olds listed some of the problems and noted they h'ave told the contractor it will not be accepted it in its current formal. They have to. redo it, replace it, whatever is necessa'ry before we will accept the.pond. Mr. Olds: If the general contractor does not have the wherewithal to fix the pond and fountain, we are counting on the fountain 'manufacturer to step in and have someone else come in and redo it all. We have a performance bond on the contract. We have not paid them anything the last few months so we have $240;000 held back. The contractor will be back in March to rerun it. This is all documented in our reports. We make a record of everything. 6 CRC Meeting; Wednesday,. February 12,2003 Mr. Roesch: Are reports enough to build a case or should we send a letter? Mr: Olds: I have sent letters to them. One of them was about the lien issue. They know they have an issue and they know they have a problem. Mr. Haas: They have called asking for a meeting with. Mr. Olds about the lien: I don't think a letter saying "you have defaulted" is necessary. Mr. Olds assured the CRC the pond will not be turned over to them until'all is corrected. It will also include a one year warranty period. Councilor Wilson asked some questions about the pond. Mr. Olds replied the water in the pond is there to stabilize it because of the hydrostatic pressure. He said the underground chamber has some driblets of water in it. Mr. Olds wastold by' the contractor that someone had cut the lock on the chamber. Multiple sump pumps have been unable to get the ground dried out. Once the construction around it is completed it should help with the hydrostatic pressure problem as will the underground detention area. Mr. Olds: It should.benoted that on the ice skating area, we designed thc undersidc differently to allow the water to be drained down to four inches and providcd additional drainagc to remove the, hydrostatic pressttre so you could drain it down. We've tricd everything possible that wc know of including using good soil engineers \vho have passed on everything we've done to try arid make surc wc've lookcd at all angles. Mr. Wilson: I understand there's 440 power in the mechanical room and I understand because of the excessive water problems, companies don't want to send their workers into that.mechanical room bccause they consider the liability of losing somebody by being electrocuted. Mr. Olds: We heard that also and we talked to the manufacturer about it. He said, "Our systems are installed all over the world. We've installed the same system in about twenty locations in New York City and your rules herc are' nothing compared to California and. New York in tenllS of safety. We mcet every single safety requirement." Now that's not to say that if you opened that hatch up and ilhad water iniUhat you would go down in that hatch and fool with electrical panels. None of tis would do that. But supposedly the way it's set up, grounded, everything's taken care of. The addition of chlorination tablets to help the water system can be done by putting them around the' perimeter of the.pool in the scuffers. . Further discussion followed. Mention was made of thc difficulty of finding someonc to maintain thc pond and the area around it. Mr. Olds is making inquilies about this. Reports from eRe Members None at this time. 7 CRC Meeting. Wednesdny. Februnry 12.2003 Correspondence Report on the wetlands mitigation was received. New Business Mr. Roesch announced an award was given for Concrete Masonry Excellence in Design for the Shapiro building. If Mr. Shapiro did nOl receive one, this plaque will be given to him. Bl'eak for Lunch Planning Session Mr. Roesch said we would try to stick to the schedule, noting there may be some things we need to spend more time on, form committees to talk about it. 'He asked everyone to be very open and think out of the box. "Nothing is cut iri stone and there may be other ideas." Ms.-Lawrence thanked the CRC for inviting her back and those who help~d her with the agenda. She explained the schedule. The'first item on the agenda is the'comments from the Mayors' Forum from the ULI magazine article. Mr. Olds explained that back in1999, when the first plan was done, there were very few instructions. We were told to come up with a new "city center". The idea was to create a space that would be definitely known as the city center and it was based on the village green. In conjunctionwith lhatwas the need to support the city center with public spaces, performing arts center, amphitheater, parking, retail and housing. This early plan is the one which was displayed for quite some time. Developers were told to gi ve us their suggestions. Based on that we took the plan and changed a series of concepts which were listed to the development community, such as street/teaser parking. There was not enough room for sUlface parking. The CRC could provide a parking deck as another option which would.bevery'expensive. Many different parking options have been looked at. Listening to the development community is part of the process, but also listening to what the. ability is for Carmel to sustain and support, that type of retail development. Mr. Koven: Kelli, before you go any further I have to say what's onmy mind. I am particularly disturbed as a member of this commission and even more disturbed as a member of the City Council, that this whole scenario took place back in apparently 2001, the result~ were reported in Urban Land magazine in June. 2002..l'm sure Les knew about it. I know you knew about it. I know Mike [Hollibaugh] knew about it. I don't know how many others, Steve [Engelking] probably knew about it. I'm sure the Mayor' knew about it. We the Council found out about it because [Councilor] Kevin Kirby saw it and brought it to the attention of the Council. I am absolutely dumbfounded and appalled 8 CRC Meeting, Wednesday, February 12,2003 that an article like this could be wlinen ina national publication of professional planners, architects, land use peoplc and hcre we are. the people that are responsible for making these decisions. I know we were intentionally, this was kept from us, with the specific idea that you did not want us to know what happened hcre. NowI can read that article and take it literally for what it says. [don't get too bent out of shape about it. But [ have a tremendous,now, lack of confidence and lack of trust, in our planners and the administration of this City as to whether we are going to be told the truth and if the information that we should know is shared with us in appropriate ways. Quite honestly I was going to refuse to be reappointed to this commission, because I'm not going to be in a situation where ['m going to be called upon to be making decisions on information that's passed to us that people, that now knowing I don't know if ! can trust you. Because I don't know what other things are in the back of your mind. [ mean, we have aJederal grant for parks that I thought we were getting a million dollars to build a reflecting pond. Now I find out only $500,000 of it is for the reflecting pond. The rest of it is for underground storage. We weren'ttold that. This commission was not told that. And you're starting to create a situation here, how can we be here making decisions if we can't have the confidence in the infoimation that's being provided to us. ['m a big boy. I can read something and draw my own conclusions. I don't buy into this as being a problem. T understand what you just said. This is something that's going to change. But I have a real problem knowing that people within this city, employees o[this city, intentionally kept this from the Carmel Redevelopment Commission. And [ think that is absolutely appalling. It's despicable! I'm not going to make a motion to do it, but I'd give a vote of "no confidence" in the people that we're getting information from because your credibility with me is shot. I'd like to know. Were you [Mr. Olds] in Albuquerque with the Mayor when he made this presentation? Mr. Olds: No. Mr. Koven: I'd like to know who was. Was he there by himself? Because what you're talking about now is different than what they're talkin'g about. He wasn't making this presentation'to developers. This was professional planners that were there.to critique a plan. They obviously didn't like it. They didn't like what they saw. They made a number of comments, but still, as an elected official in this city and as an appointed member of this body, who was originally appointed by the Mayor in the first place, to findthat something like this is out there and they don't think I should see it, because either I can't handle it or maybe it's going to impact my decision-making process, but to know that our own Department of Community Services had this magazine and they were discussing that it was not to be seen by the Redevelopment Commission, I find it appalling. Councilor Wilson: As a member of the Council, I'd like to tie in to this because it's all getting clearer to me. I wrote a letter [to the editor] and I tried to maintain a very professional letter. I have come to a lot of these CRC meetings to find out what it's all about. I think it's fair to say that I've never been an adversary of this group. ['ve.taken'a lot of interest in what this group's doing. But almost from the beginning when I came on the Council, when T hear you stand up here, Les, and talk about the development 9 eRe Meeting. Wednesday. Febn13TY 12,2003 community and this is what they want and you've been here from the beginning of this plan. I've heard from most of the developers in the Indianapolis market that looked at these plans and what I've heard from them time and time again was that they didn't like these. And that would include Lindner, Kite, Lauth, Kosene. Those are four that immediately come to mind. I'm amazed that I find Jerry [Kosene] back here for a second dose and what he might get on $300,000 more in impact fees. Apparently he never will learn. They all said we went to the Mayor and we presented plans that would have worked in the redevelopment commission. Gary Lindner once told me there was the potential for a twelve screen theater but it ended up in Glendale. Time and time they had to bow out of this project because of the constraints put on by the architectural things. I remember specifically Jerry Kosene said to me one day, "Had there been flexibility or had they let the development community do what we thought would have worked at the time, this whole thing would have been built and done." So I get real concerned when I hear you say that this is a development community because even going back to when the Mayor was in Albuquerque or going back t9the Chamber of Commerce's original concept of this.. .and I'm not against City Center. We're too far into it to change it, but we're going to have to bring credibility to it. There's always been a white paper against the City Center project from the'standpoint of the City being the developer. That originally came out of the Carmel Clay Chamber of Commerce when Nancy Blondin was President of it. Subsequently, when I hearthe Mayor talking, everything is always' in the plural "we", but as a CouncilorTvenever been ableto find one other person that supported this concept. The "we" became the Mayor. I'm not here to fight with tlie Mayor over it but please tell me who in the hell the development community is that is supporting all this, other than the individual people that are building in the center here, and they're all building with speCial conditions. I. hear you talking again this morning about waiving of impact fees, prepared sites for all this, A $2,000,000 reflecting pond that will enhance the businesses that arc going over there. Nothing seems to me, and maybe I'm an idiot, to be any where close to normal. It seems that we have to create special deals for all this so I take offense with what you're saying just from the standpoint of the Council. I'm not arguing but I don't understand where you're coming from. Mr. Roesch: I understand everybody's comments and I do share that this thing should have come to us .before this because it behooves us with the community and with the citizens that we serve to address these issues. In some cases we have addressed some of these issues in an ongoing basis. If we had known about this we would have addressed these things sooner: We are.addressing those things herefoday. I called Kelli and told her it had to be on the agenda. One of the things I feel about the whole article, we have dOlle some things, we have adapted, but we still have to remain. flexible and I hope we can walk out of here today saying we don't have a lot of sacred cows here that we can't change. We may decide that some of the components that remain, we can't do because they don't meet the development's needs, the community's needs, the market. It behooves us because this has become public knowledge that there was this criticism, so we need to address these items. 10 .. CRC Meeting, Wednesday, February 12,2003 Some of them we've addressed perhaps by accident or our good judgment But for me, I stilI have an open mind about what's undeveloped at this point. We have to constantly re- examine those things, These.are good comments these people made about the original project. Some of these things we've addressed, Some of them, we've probably stuck too much to, In addressing what John said, I would expect the departments, going ahead, to keep us fulIy ihformed on a timely basis as'lhey come up with things like this, We'II address them, We're going to .be faced with some hard problems to solve and I think we can solve,those, Certainly if somebody comes in\yith a different plan or plans for different parts of this, it bears consideration, Mr. Koven: My' comments are not to influence what we've done, because I'm happy with what we've done so far. I'm not happy with the reflecting pond, but what we've done so far, I'm happy with and my mind is stilI wide open, This is anoiher,issue, not to be tTeated as someone who has an open mind and knowing now that it was intentionalIy and willfully kept from me, as an elected official in the City, That is the issue, We don't have to sit here and go over all the points in the article, The issue here is that our own staff didn't have the confidence in us thatwecould deal with this, What we have here, unfortunately, is a pattern of behavior that I don't like, And it is a pattern and it's just another step in that pattern, Ms, Snyder: I agree with John in that I think it is an issue here that is disturbing when we have a copy of every single one of these magazines except that particular Issue, it leaves you to believe that it was deliberate, Having said that and getting it out on the table, that wchave a feeling that the Department of Community Services is not giving us the . information we need, we have to leave it there and go on, There's noth'ing else to be done, But we don't expect to have that kind. of thing happen again, Now moving on from the article, I've read it a couple of times, I don't think it's as damning as it appears and I think Wayne is partialIy right and partialIy wrong about this issue, He wasn't on the Council. I believe, when we began this, and it is a subsidized organization, as is any redevelopment commission, [Tape change,] In the beginning, when the first plan came out and I stood in front'of the CounCil althe podium and talked about it, I said that the cincma wasn'tgoing to work, And the reason I . said that was because I spoke to the president of Sony Distribution and faxed him the plan and the map of the City, He said, "You could build a theater. If thcdistribution companies don't give you the films, it won't be a theater. We would never give you first run films because you're not on a Keystone, or a Meridian, or a Michigan, You'd be an aIt theater, at which point you wouldn't be able to charge the high ticket prices, at which point you'd be subsidizing this building, Do you want that?" I said, "No, we don't want that. We want a real theatcr." So we knew that wasn't going to function and the Mayor kept, as you said, it's pride of authorship, so it was several years before that disappeared from the lexicon of what he was talking about. But as John said, we have assimilated many of these lessons, And it was all offices, and we converted it to housing because the retaii community.., and this is my business, Wayne", Kite, and Lindncr, and Lauth (although Lauth is not a retail developer of any note), Simon all said II eRe Meeting, Wednesday. February If. 2003 you won't have retail ,until you have rooftops. So we did rooftops and we did them fairly well. The pond has always been there. The mall was always there as an access hoping we could develop something neat out of it andI think everything else is up for grabs. The museum continues to remain in the plan and I hope this is recording, because I think it is absolutely Jaughable. Because thelasttime we talked seriously about the museum was when the Mayor had a group of people who had an art collection that included no paintings, only sketches, from an obscure era. in art, pre-impressionist, that we were supposed to meet them and hopefully we were going to build the museum. It was kind of the'spin we got, that somebody like'Steve Hilbert was going to build the building and these people were going to put the art in il and it would be in our City Center. We were all thinking that would be nice. But when we got into the meeting, it turned out those people wanted us to buy their puny little art collection and Steve Hilbert wasn't going to build any museum. So I think a museum is something that, eonsidering the mistakes we've made and the lessons we've learned, not because we're stupid, but beeause no one's did this before. We've got this.shapiro thing thatwe've thrashed out and now we're saying we need to have a lesson about impaCt fees, and we need to have a policy. We. have little lambs lcft bull think we've putin the backbone of what will make a decent project. The first piece I'd love io jettison, i mean if somebody comes over and. says they want to build a museum, we wouldn't turn them down, but I doubt that's going to happen. In my mind, that little word "museum" is going to disappear right off here. And the other again is up for grabs. But asJohn says, I think we'veleamed all of this kind of on our own. Maybe we would have learned it a little faster had we seen this article and [' m not, a happy camper about that either, but we do have to pull up our socks and move on. Mr. Roesch: We do have to pull up our socks and move on. John, everything is solvable here. There are some things that Les mentioned: the street parking, that continues to bea recurring developer wish list and if we're being market driven, I don't think we can just wholesale discount that. Agreement from Ms. Snyder and Mr. Burke, Mr. Roesch continued: And it is teasel' parking. You [nay run past it ten days ina row before you get to park there, but the conception is there,it's convenient. The other thing is the underground parking. We've talked many times about it and it seems like it is too expensive for us and too expensive for a developer. It's just a concept that doesn't seem , to work. Mr. Olds: Part of the other reason on the underground parking, the belief was that if you put the retail and then you put housing on top oftheretail, that would help support the underground parking and you'd have to have it so the condos above would have a place to park. That was part of the <<oncept in thebeginniilg which was pooh-poohed by . everybody the very first years. Every local developer said, "You're crazy." And then people came from out of town, looked at it and said they were doing itin other parts of the country. Now housing above retail is the current thing. 12 CRGMecting, \VcdncsdaY;iFe,brnary,12, 2003 Ms, Snyder: It is. very cool; everyboqx!swhb'S been watchingknows,When the G:ityof Ind. .iariapol. is tried'to get housing to. 90me dow.f1tD:v.:.n, aln. lost'everY'resiClential,developer saidhouslilg.dbwntown won't'work, GoldsticKer, o(Ryla'rict Homes,. who caine Jrom Baltimore, said,'''Wait a minute,Onthe eastcoast;we have these tall, skinny' tDwnil~uses,i' And hebuilt>tlle"'projecqF;rel10t!se,Squ~re) and,it"virwall)'sl))dout A~d then suddenly,the'local developers said that'was a:good.idca,i\nd"Kosene then bcgan,to do it'andotJ:lers are'beginniiig to.d,o it. Ther,e is~iio't,h:er (leveloper,:Rasrnu~seilt~om out;of town, looking at vefY, verY'llpsc,jle townhomes, $400;000-$600,000, the kind of thing \hat's'ol!ilt iil ChicagO,Jusi.nolth ofth~gDld coast, And he is looking for a plot here and . he 'said,.'a want,to fin? an area here because nobody in this to",~ thinks'these will s~l!." It appears that we're norparticlllm:ly able.to,as a 'business person step 'in antJ,cJo,something. unusual. Mosfof theseideas:are coniing'fr6ril ollt of tow,n: Downtowil [llldiflriapolisLtl)e pr(jject, the olJ'Blocks building; is being,redone.by a firm from Cleveiand, They said;in Indianapl)Iis ,youdo,ri't have anything like this, Tl [s,alni,xedllse,bllilding,retali,9ondo ' and parking, So ~bU'reexnctly I'if;rt [Mr.,Olds].,We Ioo~'afitllete.kically;and cali) see the'vision.Sornebody else who's donc itcomesin'and thinkswe:re'a,blank canvas, Mr. aids mentioned the p{)ssl15ility oEa garagewitb'I'eta'ihjearby ana apartments iIbbye the parking structure, . Ms.:Snyder: One of thelhingslthought was interesting'was the wning;.pnrtlclllarly "standard zoning practices and. e1)fOTCecl~ingle use~Jover wide'stteets.enc:ourage.l1igh speed traffic, All of,tbosek'inds':ofthings are.sometbihg you have'to gel.c.{)ntfoLbf.... And we did that'last yeaLBecause,it wnsimportantthal'the:concept-we have.herels a vision that was internal to this group and w~ Cill1't expec.ttheCityt<,iwork'verycai'e{ully:trying tCl implement'ordinances'tbahvon'tapply to this area. So we learned that iessCln. ourselves. and ~ookit back-and have,oucown arcHitectural and.signage requirements, But I think we're oacktothis high'speed !l'affic,parking,f{ate [Weese, City Engineer] who fights tooth and naiHorno.plill off parking,'but.J'mafraid'it might'be just.wtat. wc'need Mr. Roesch; J don'.t'rccal] ,talking with anyone, prospects:orpeople existing,.jn the development community who.basn't expressedtbat. Ms, Snyder: i.think we've got critical mass once'we~ve,got Kosene~s.pl'O]ect ctbne..And the!! it s'ays,"CQricentral~ aC,tiyity.1:o create excilement."'We;li?vc been thinking that's retail; might not be thollgh. Might'be sbioetlii hg'oiffer'elit. ". . - Mr, qrtet: You rmlY have alFea9Y c{)vi3fecl'this, b\J~ let's' taketlfeL,mith,projec'ta:s: proposed, If'teaserparkihg'were invol ved, would,it change'the Lauth.project-?emnot sure it would..l'mnot ~ure \Vitl1 just teaser,parking;there, that:'s going to make:mewhallts feeUike [having] a,dool' on RahgeLin-e, tl1at.'safunctioning,door- and \Vi ndo,ws that are functioning,di~play windows, Ms,Snyder: That's my objection to the Lauth concept"because'lf yoli're walkihg on the street, you're passing-aJak~ far,:ade There"s no way io' get;into,the projectancl they say they have t(} hav~ ir)Jl>it way, rd r~ther'tllrfi,that.dowi1iintl;go.,o'n\b something different, c _ - . _ _-. 13 CRC Meeting. Wednesday. February 12. 2003 Mr. Carter: But is teaser parking for anybody there, enough to make business on Range Line appropriate for the reiailers? Mr. Olds: It wouldn't. It would allow convenience retailing. Convenience retailer will not go in here because,no one can pull up and park temporarily and come inside. If you had . parking on the street then the orientation would automatically start to rotate. The convenience guys can park for ten minutes and run in the. store to get something. And I would look at itas convenience type retail. Lauth has looked at it as destination retail rather than convenience. Mr. Carter said he liked the interim design with the'curve because it was more.conducive to what we're trying to do and it was more interesting. And it had more than teaser parking. Discussion followed on different parking options, internal street locations, and the site line from Railge Line Road. . Mr. Roesch said much as he liked the, performing arts center and museum concepts, the funding is way, way off, and we should not discount ideas that would' alter those blocks. Mr. Burke: That's what we're here for. If somebody comes in with a design that.seems to fit the overall concept, and some of the blocks go away, let's listen to Illem. Discussion continued about the acreage, the amphitneater. Suggestion was made about issuing new RFPs. Ms. Lawrence: We could give them the main ideas, sending it out to the main developers, ask for their inpu t. Discussion followed at length. Mr. Koven expressed doubt that Lauth is g9ing to follow through with theiTinitial proposal. Mr. Roesch, after meeting with Joe Downs in December, said he thought they were looking for tenants and.that is what is driving them.'He noted both fronl.parcels have to be done at the same time. Lauth has been told in person thatthe CRC is getting appraisals for the property. Mr. Olds said on the Market square Arena site, all six proposals submitted were to lease the land for 99 years and all parking was to be provided by the City. Mr. Roesch said if we had. a developer who was going to do this whole thing at once we could look at a. bond issue supported by the TIF that is generated by the project It would be easy to see if you would have the cash flow from the TIF to support the debt service 14 .. CRC Meeting. Wednesday. February 12, 2003 on the bond and we could solvetliis in one fell swoop without increasing the existing taxpayers' debt, but only if you have a large developer or a partners' group. Mr. Wilson:-Is Parcel #5 still an open commodity? There's nobody in this room that understands that there is a rumor in the community that Lauth is talking with a larger developer to take over the development of Clay Terrace? [Yes and no respectively.] Ms. Lawrence asked for clarification for the general elements that the eRC wants to maintain in whatever the developer wants to propose. A list of benefits should be included in any RFP. Mr. Roesch said he got a call from the Indiana Commercial Magazine suggesting the CRC do a cover article at a cost of perhaps $3500 complete with pictures,designs. "There are othefthings we could do like that." Mr. Hollibaugh suggested the CRC put an RFP in the Urban Land magazine. Mr. Koven said he would prefer to be the minor player rather than the major player. "If somcbody comes along with a project, lct them be the one that's going to drivc thc thing and asking us to fill in where they necd to be filled"in." Mr. Lillig pointed out that thc'design sliould not be allowed to go too far afield from the Georgian architecture. Whatever is there should be complementary to what has a,lready bcen built otherwise those who have already built would feel like they had been "sold down the ri ver". The remainder of the Planning Session will be reported via Ms. Lawrence's notes. (See enclosed.) 'fIF Areas Ms. Snyder moved the CRe increase the TlF area to include Clarian property; from Il6th Street, north to l26th and across to Meridian, then on across Meridian gathering arcas to include the triangle and the Kirk project. [See 111ap included.] Following a second by Mr. Burke, the motion was approved with four in favor. Ms. Lawrence pointed out the tax allocation area was nevcr established for the North Illinois Street Economic Development Area and the Old Meridian Economic Development Area. The boundaries were never extended to include the C-210 annexation area either. The tax impact study has to be done for those areas. Mr. Roesch will call Matt Price, from Bingham McHale, about this. Ms. Lawrence concluded the Planning Session and thanked the Commission for hiring her. Next Meeting The next meeting will be Wednesday, March 12, 6:30 p.m. 15 CRC Meeting. Wednesday. February 12.2003 Adjournment Mr. Koven moved the meeting be adjourned. Following a second by Ms. Snyder,the motion was unanimously approved and the meeting adjourned at 5: 11 p.m. 16