HomeMy WebLinkAboutCRC-10-11-00CARMEL REDEVELOPMENT COMMISSION
Wednesday, October 11, 2000
Caucus Rooms, Carmel City Hall
7:.00 p.m.
AGENDA
1.
2.
3.
4.
5.
Call to Order
Approval of Minutes from September 27 regular meeting, September 27 Executive Session,
and October 2, 2000 meeting
Resolution 16-2000 to appoint an attorney for the CRC
Report from Mayor
Report from Architect
6. Report from Director
7. Financial Report
8. Invoices (See attached)
9. Old Business
10. New Business
11. Signing of Documents (if any)
12. Schedule Next Meeting (November 8, 7 p.m., Caucus Room)
13. Adjournment
Z:\redevcomm\2000 Oct I I Agenda
CARMEL REDEVELOPMENT COMMISSION Meeting, Wednesday, October 11, 2000
President Rick Roesch called the meeting to order at 7:01 p.m. CRC members present:
Amy Boldt, Luci Snyder, John R. Koven, representing a quorum. Also present were Joe
Staehler, Director of the CRC, Beth Young from Bose McKinney and Evans, Karl Haas,
Les Olds, City Councilor Wayne Wilson, and Mr. & Mrs. Babineau. Sherry Mielke
present as support staff.
Mr. Roesch asked for a motion to change the order of the agenda to allow Ms. Babineau
to address the CRC right away. So moved by M is. Snyder. Following a second by Ms.
Boldt, the motion was approved.
Ms. Babineau said she was told to get two quotes to Mr. Staehler for the additional
plumbing needed at the beauty shop which she did. She was told by Mr. Staehler that.
since the sink being installed is a pedicure sink rather than a head sink there is a problem
with it; the estimates are too high and another is needed. Ms. Babineau got another quote
today and was then told by Mr. Staehler that the installation cannot be approved because
it is a pedicure sink. Ms. Babineau was told by a plumber there.is no difference in the
cost of installing a foot and head sink and that the pedicure sink is in fact cheaper to
install because it does not have to be mounted to the wall.
Mr. and Mrs. Babineau expressed disappointment in the lack of response on this problem.
CRC members, Ms. Snyder and Mr. Koven stated they thought the problem had been
solved at the last meeting.
Mr. Staehler was directed to order the work be done tomorrow, coordinating the timing of
the installation to occur on a Sunday or Monday.
Approval of Minutes
Mr. Roesch noted minutes were distributed from the meetings of September 27 and
October 2. Question arose whether some of the dissertation from the Executive Session
of September 27 was included in the regular meeting minutes. After discussion it was
decided the minutes were correct except as follows: Ms. Boldt was not present at the
Executive, Session on September 27. Mr. Koven moved we approve the minutes from the
regular meeting of September 27, the Executive Session of September 27 with the above
correction, and the regular meeting of October 2. Following a second by Ms. Snyder, the
motion was approved with three votes favorable. Ms. Boldt abstained.
Resolution 16-2000
Ms. Snyder proposed a resolution appointing an attorney for the CRC, noting Mr. Haas is
serving as the attorney but has not been officially appointed. Mr. Koven asked if the
resolution was detailed enough. Mr. Koven directed questions to Mr. Haas, stating, "I
want to make sure that we understand clearly that you're the attorney for the
Redevelopment Commission and that you take direction from the Redevelopment
Commission and nobody else." Mr. Haas responded affirmatively.
1.
Mr. Koven: I would like to see this included in the resolution so there are no "backroom
discussions" going on that the CRC is not aware of and that we're not negotiating on
property that-we haven't said "let's go negotiate on this property" and all of those things.
I think that's the purpose in doing this, so we get it on the record that you are our
attorney, not the mayor's attorney." He asked Mr. Haas if that was clear.
Ms. Snyder: I had assumed that if w8.appointed an attorney, then that attorney
understands that he or she is the attorney for this Commission, but if you would like to
make an amendment to that, go right ahead.
Mr. Staehler: If I were the attorney being considered, I'd be somewhat insulted because
that's part of the oath of my professional status as an attorney, that I owe 100% loyalty to
my client, who happens to be in this case, the CRC.
Mr. Koven: If that's the case, that's the case, but it's not often been the case until now
just wanted to make sure in doing that, we've changed the playing field.
Mr. Roesch: Implied though, is appointing and removing, and that's the hammer.
Ms. Snyder: You can't remove anybody unless he's been appointed.
Mr. Roesch asked Mr. Haas if he would.like to be the attorney.
Mr. Haas: Yes, I would be honored.
Ms. Snyder moved the CRC appoint Karl Haas as attorney for the CRC. Following a
second by Mr. Koven, the motion was unanimously approved.
Mayor's Report
The Mayor was not in attendance so there was,no report.
Mr. Roesch has asked that reports from the Attorney, Architect, Director and a Financial
report be presented at each meeting so the CRC is fully informed.
Attorney's Report
Mr. Haas: For the Sherwin Williams dispute, we have elected to go with a jury trial
instead of a bench trial which is unusual for condemnation cases. Normally„ there is the
idea that a jury will be sympathetic to the "little guy" whose property is being taken by
force. In this case, Sherwin Williams isn't such a little guy and the judge is the person
who appointed the appraisers who came back with those high amounts. There is some
thought that ajudge might want to give some credence to the valuations of the appraisers
he appointed. There are no ongoing settlement negotiations. I communicated, to their
lawyer that I had no authority to settle and that the feeling of the Commission was that
the appraised value was outrageous and that we'd see them in court. He wanted to know
if we were going to plead the money into court and take possession and I said, "Maybe. If
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not soon, maybe :later. You can wait." I told them the'sentiment"of the Commission was
that there was not evetrany point in my bringing back a settlement- proposal unless it was
for $170,000 payable July 200L He said, "ThaCs worse'thari the'last.offer" I.said,,"I
know, but that's where we, stand.''=I did hear from O. J.'Stalker, the :developer across the
street and they ate moving forward with that, development. I think as they move forward
and as we get closer to a jury trial we'll bear more from Sherwin Williams. In the
meantime it.is,no money out.ofpockct.
It was noted the?trial will be in Judge.Steve Nation's,court.
Mr. Haas: On the?Kestner transaction, now that it-looks as'though we're going to have
some funds, Iim going to order title; survey; other due diligence items required under, our
project:agreetnetft and begin the negotiations with the tenarits,for early terminatiomof the
leases. The way `I intend to negotiate.those`is,a'buycut ona sliding scale depending upon.
when. we want 'the:property.:If we don?twant the property before their leases-are, over,
then we'll be the landlord.
Mr. Koven: I'm.concerned about even spending the money to negotiate with them until
we really know what:the status of thatbuilding is. We haven't settled with_Nick:Kestner.
We're not in possession ofthe building. I'd really like to see where all our money's
coming from and where it's going before we, start doing that.
Mr. Roesch: There are some contingencies like the 600 comes.in when a lease is•dropped:
I:was telling Karl, I think going ahead-we want'to do'the things on-ounagenda very
orderly and not`spend, spend; spend while we've got it. But plan this•spending on'-an.
orderly basis.
Ms. Boldt stated she felt this wasprudcnt advice sinceahe CRC doesn't.know what kind
of-time frame we're looking at..
Mr.. Haas: Any settlement, proposal wouldbe:that theymightend up staying`as.long as
then` leases last. It would be on; a sliding scale.
Mr.Roesch: We're,going°to know more financially where we are in about sixty `days,
Mr. Koven: I.think-we'll teandown the Kroger Center befo?ewe ever tear down the
Schwinn,Center.
Mr. Roesch: If we do some promotion and we see.some.interest in.the plots thatwe had
no interest in earlier, that's going to change things, too. We're going to have to speedup
and slow down as necessary on doing things.
Further discussion followed.
Councilor Wilson' In researching'thi"s`and going back and looking at tlie"97-'98 bond
issues, I remind this group that,reasoris were given for raising that money and.one of
them is the demolition of the Kroger Center. And now that this money is coming back to
you that was originally generated from that bond issue, I would appreciate greatly from
the Economic Development Committee standpoint if you would prioritize what you're
going to do as a Redevelopment so that this money gets spent in conjunction with the
original promises that were made when the bond was approved.
Mr. Roesch: From a promotion standpoint, we need to show things [happening]. I get
calls about the Kroger Center all the time asking what's being done. I think we need to
show the community and prospects that there is progress being made and that's one of the
quickest, easiest and most inexpensive ways we can do it.
Ms. Snyder: I have an idea for our December meeting. It should be short and sweet and
perhaps it should be at Muldoon's. We should all sit around with a glass of Chardonnay
or a Scotch in hand and I think we should begin to think "but of the box". All of us have
been to cities where interesting construction projects have been going on and you see
empty buildings with people painted on the glass so it looks like there's a party inside, or
you see the whole sidewalk blocked off but they've got holes so you can peek through
except the holes are part of a character or a scene and it arrests your attention as you go
by and lets you know that something interesting is coming. I think it's incumbent upon us
to think of something really interesting to do there. Whether we tear down all of it or part
of it, so that when people come by just driving along they say, "Something's going on
over there."
Ms. Boldt expressed agreement with the idea.
Ms. Snyder asked Mr. Roesch to give it some thought.
Mr. Roesch: I'm sorry, Karl, we kind of digressed.
Mr. Haas: The negotiations with those tenants will need to commence somewhere
between six to nine months. before you want them out of the property. That would be my
guess as to how long it would take to get them out or if we can't reach a deal with them,
go with the condemnation and get the authority to plead money into court and take them
out.
Mr. Roesch: We'll have more direction as we get money and look at priorities at what
needs to be spent and projected.
Mr. Staehler. Should we put that on the November agenda to discuss further under old
business?
Mr. Roesch: I don't know what the financial report is going to look like tonight.
Mr. Staehler: We haven't added anything except there's more money in it than I told you.
Some of the revenues that came in last month weren't deposited until after the first.
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Mr. Haas: Do we want to pursue the Goodyear property?
Discussion followed. Concerns were that they might find a tenant and then the CRC
would have to deal with a lease; also that there might still be a lease in place. Mr. Haas
said there is probably still a lease.
Mr. Haas: The two dangers are that you end up with an operating tenant with whom you
have to deal. The other is the lead time of some months it would take to get that property
so it could be redeveloped. One way is to proceed with negotiations slowly (so they think
we're working on it and are less inclined to lease it to someone) so when it's time to pick
up the negotiations try to close it more quickly. The options are: leave it go for now,
pursue it heavily, or pursue it enough to be polite and keep the communications open.
Ms. Snyder: The Huffers own the building? Who is the tenant, is it Goodyear or Mr.
Goodknight?
Mr. Haas: I believe it was Goodyear subleased to Goodknight.
Mr. Roesch: We should discuss this strategy in an Executive Session.
Councilor Wilson: Could I mention one potential strategy? What you guys did with
AMLI, the Street Department is going to lose the use of that metal building and Utilities
was also paying some rent to use it. What about entering into some sort of lease with the
lease payment applying towards the purchase? Your lease payments could be made by
the Street Department and the Utilities Department because they're still going to need
another building to put the trucks in.
Discussion followed at length.
Mr. Haas: Iwill talk to Mr. Huffer and report back to you at the next meeting.
Mr. Haas: On AMLI Old Town„I sent a draft of the project agreement to Paul Reis which
is consistent with AMLI's proposal for that project. [Copies were distributed.] It provides
for the cash payment of 5600,000. That money will come in.and go into escrow when the
project agreement is signed and come out of escrow and be payable to the Commission
when the lease is signed. The remaining $600,000 comes out of the net. It is very
complicated to protect your interests in these instances.
Cripe needs to be notified about continuing the site preparations. Then the parties
together will establish a schedule. Mr. Staehler will notify Mr. Currise at Cripe.
Mr. Haas suggested we get an updated title survey and environmental assessment on that
property even before we sign the agreements. We need a reliance letter for Jim Thomas at
AMLI from August Mack. Mr. Staehler will take care of this.
Mr. Haas continued: On the City Center, we're whittling down the requirements for the
AMLI money to be released from escrow. A ILI is still working on its sign permit. We
have a few technical requirements and then we need the final CRC construction plans
approved by AMLI.
Discussion followed about the signs at AMLI.
Mr. Koven: One other thing I want to bring up. We,.if Pm not mistaken, approved street
vacation through the middle of that property over there subject to CRC approving a bid
for the purchase of that property. Does that need to go to the City Council, now that
we're awarding the bid?
Mr. Staehler will check with Doug Haney, the City Attorney, on Thursday, October 12.
Mr. Haas: The last two items needed to get the AMLI money released are a letter from
the CRC approving a couple of items on the memo Jim Thomas prepared. We need a
letter from the Utilities, agreeing to numbers one, six and seven on the memo. A copy of
the letter from Utilities was checked. Mr. Haas will draft a CRC letter to address the
approvals needed. Mr. Haas said he hoped to have the AMLI money before the next
meeting.
Mr. Roesch asked Mr. Haas to copy other Commission members with any emails of
interest of all the members. Mr. Haas said he would be glad to do that.
Architect's Report
Mr. Olds: Referring back to the CRC meeting of September 13, discussion was held
regarding Parcel #3 and the preparation of the City required site work that needed to be
completed for this property. Based on the discussion we had, CSO was authorized to
proceed in carrying out that work along with preparing documents and drawings for the
stairway leading down, the plaza, etc., down at the Monon Trail. The documents were
prepared as directed and these items will be treated as "Add Alternates". So the
Commission could decide whether they want to proceed with them based on the cost. We
are breaking the add alternates down to a whole series of pieces. The contractor will give
a base bid to do the normal site work and then give us the individual price element for all
the pieces.
Mr. Olds continued: The documents are ready to go out for bid, including the
specifications. We had talked about getting the documents approved at this meeting,
going out for bid, and receiving bids at the November 8 meeting. To do that we would
have to advertise October 18, so it would appear in the paper on October 20 and 27 to
meet the advertising requirements. We also propose that the normal holding of bids be
increased from sixty days to ninety days at which time the Commission could take action
on whether to proceed. If your funds become available sooner and you want to proceed
sooner that's your option.
Brief discussion followed
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Mr. Olds: This does meet the commitments we've made to Mr. Kestner? I would
recommend that this documentation be reviewed by Mr. Kestner, to make him aware of
what's going to be done and where he has to pick up his work, to eliminate any questions
or concerns. We'd like him to bring.his contractor in also so everybody is aware. This
reflects the amendments to the agreement and is one last check. It's our recommendation.
Mr. Staehler noted it has also been suggested that he be at that meeting unless some
member of the board wants to go in.his place. "Or all of us can go."
Mr. Olds: I'd like Mr. Kestner's contractor to sign off and accept the documentation that
we're doing here as part of the exhibit to the agreement to avoid confrontation, someone
coming in and saying, "I didn't understand...".
Ms. Boldt asked if the Mayor should also be present to approve this.
Mr. Olds: As I understand it, this is the information that I have continually relayed to Mr.
Kestner. Mr. Kestner has not acknowledged that.
Mr. Staehler: It is very important that we have a communication here because we have an.
agreement with Kestner. Kestner has his perceptions of how it should go. We have our
perceptions of how it should go. We want to make sure we're all in harmony on it.
The CRC expressed agreement and that a member of the CRC should also be present. Mr.
Olds said minutes of that meeting should be taken so there is a clear understanding of
what is happening. Mr. Roesch will represent the CRC along with Mr. Staehler at the
meeting.
Mr. Roesch brought up the question about the stairway again and whether a safety hazard
is being created. Mr. Koven explained his concerns again.
The location of the ramp from the Monon to City Center Drive was discussed.
Mr. Olds: There is also one other issue we.haven't talked about. Earlier we talked about
providing some temporary parking, for example for people who are using the Motion
Trail, and where was it-going to be placed on a temporary basis. We have prepared a
sketch of a gravel parking lot that could be built north of 126`h Street [City Center Drive]
between the Motion Trail and the curb cut that is already in place on the street, next to the
ramp area. That would be a place people could pull down into and unload and pull back
out. It is owned by CRC and is undefined as what we wanted to do with it.
Ms. Boldt: During a recent Boy Scout project cleaning the Motion Trail, it became very
apparent there is inadequate parking for the Motion.
Mr. Olds noted Mr. Kestner has expressed concerns about this, also, fearing his business
parking lot will be used by people using the ivtonon. The master plan shows parking to
7
occur on the south side of the Monon Trail in "various areas, but at the present time there
is no [inaudible].
Mr. Koven: I just don't think we want to do anything that is going to create traffic stalls
at this intersection, cars, bikers, parking lot or anything. It is the center of the city. I
don't want to waste the money putting in a temporary parking lot then taking it away
from people. There's a paved parking area right down by the Street Department and I've
yet to see more than one or two cars in it.
Mr. Olds was asked if there was another design and if so would it affect what is being
looked at at.
Mr. Olds: To handle the transition, you could put the retaining wall up, you don't put the
stairs and you build the plaza down in the area. That's a possibility. The only way that
you would get down there is by using the ramp [on the other side of the Monon].
Mr. Koven: I think that's what we need to do. I wish there were a way I could withdraw a
vote that I made earlier, but I will not vote for it again because I just think we're asking
for trouble. I do not want City Center Drive to become a pedestrian crossed road. I don't
want a stairway on either.side of it. If people get down to the Motion Trail they can walk
under 126`h Street. That's why we put that tunnel under there. Making a provision for
them to cross it up above is ludicrous. I just don't think it's the right thing to do. The first
time somebody gets hurt there I'd.have a real problem thinking I was responsible.
Mr. Roesch: Do you think we should have Mr. Olds redesign? Another resolution would
be needed.
Mr. Koven moved the CRC look at other alternatives to the design possibilities for the
stairway. Following a second by Ms. Boldt, the motion was passed unanimously.
Mr. Roesch asked for a motion stating this does not affect this process with the
adjustments and so forth. Does everybody understand this? Ms. Snyder asked if Mr.
Kestner understood it.
Mr. Olds: There is a letter to Mr. Kestner stating that this is what's happened: while the
Commission has paid the first S25,000, they have indicated there would be no more
payment for that work. The balance of all costs must be assumed by Mr. Kestner for the
work.
Mr. Koven: Are we considering this document, to make a motion on it? This is a letter to
me.
Discussion followed about additional printing costs.
Mr. Olds explained the printing costs: You.spent the money onthe first one, on Parcel #1
which established all the benchmarks. When we did Parcels #2 and 6, we basically reused
it, copied as much as possible. In all honesty we didn't even charge you for it.
He continued: There is a series of printing... one was printing of City Center promotional
information and redoing and updating all [inaudible] sheets. There was a second printing
then of all the big folders that open up and hold the pieces. The City requested that those
be printed, additional copies.
The need for a resolution was discussed.
Ms. Boldt made a motionto rearrange the order of the agenda so Beth Young could
address the CRC. There was no second and the motion died.
Mr. Haas noted the CRC could approve payment for 1, 2, 4, 5 and 3 to the extent of the
work done to date.
Mr. Koven: This Commission never hired CSO in the first place and we are adding to a
contract that's not even with CRC but yet with the City's Board of Public Works. This
contract dates to 1997. I have a real concern about that because [speaking to Mr. Olds]
how much other stuff do you do with the City or is it all City Center and if it is, then the
Board of Public Works by our own city statute does not have the authority to approve this
contract. We actually have our own purchasing authority as defined specifically in our
City Code book so we should be the ones approving these contracts and no one else. I
have a copy of the state statute here and it talks about the.fact it is "considered to be
reckless" (that's the word in state law) for any City Department, officer, employee, to
obligate the City to any extent beyond the amount of money appropriated for that
department, officer, or employee. And anybody who goes beyond that has committed a
Class D felony under state law. Now we don't actually have appropriations for our
Commission but we have money. And for us to be hanging out there with commitments
to Nick Kestner and everybody else with money that we don't have is a violation of the
law. You're our attorney [to Karl Haas] and you can interpret that butI have questions
about looking at this kind of stuff. There's no appropriation for any of this. We don't
have a budget that's adopted.and yet we're making commitments that are outside the
scope of our perusal. I don't want to be the guy convicted of a Class D felony here. I
don't have a problem with Les but the way this is going on isn't the way it should be.
Mr. Roesch: That's why we're trying to put this in order. When this originally started
there was "seed work" that needed to be.done. I don't think any of us realized how much
was being done, how far negotiations had gone. We're realizing that now as we're trying
to put together procedure and resolutions to protect that. I just told Mr. Staehler, in the
cash flow projections, this needs to be refined to indicate what month. We've got to quit
being so general and look at what month because we're talking about a lot of money now.
We do have a lot of money and we can'tjust be estimating.
Mr. Koven: It's a violation of state statute and quite honestly, Mr. President, I think that
puts you in that predicament.
Mr. Roesch agreed.
Mr. Koven: I don't think we should be doing that. It bothers me that I've been
participating in votes to spend money here for money we don't have which is a violation
of the law, clearly defined. Is there anything else [to Mr. Olds] that your firm does for the
City of Carmel that the Board of Works should have perusal over versus what the
Redevelopment Commission should have perusal over? I would suggest that we come
back to our next meeting with a resolution adopting them. You need to give us a detailed
list of what our obligations are because the Board of Public Works has no say in this
whatsoever and never should have.
Mr. Olds: There is a list that has the original contract and that has the change orders to
the contract or addendums to the contract for various parts of the workout there. There
are a number of items in there that are not for CRC that we are carrying out because they
are tasks that the City wants done but there's no place sometimes to put them so they just
put them under that one contract, rather than going out and getting a whole new contract.
And some of these tasks are very small that they want done.
Mr. Koven: They should be a separate contract
Mr. Olds: Right. And I talked it over with Kate [Weese, City Engineer] one day and I
said, "I've got your list, and there's a separate list that I keep for the Redevelopment
Commission. There are these other items that I want to make sure are not being charged
to the Redevelopment Commission." Kate has assured me that when she gets them in she
separates them internally down there and puts the payment for certain things over to the
City side and the other over to the Redevelopment Commission side.
Mr. Koven: Let me share a concern with you. You have said to us on a couple of
occasions, and so have you [to Karl Haas], that you have items that we haven't,yet been
billed for. Am I correct? My understanding is, somebody, not this Commission, but
somebody authorized you to do a complete set of drawings for a performing arts center
and that you're sitting on that. We haven't seen that bill. When we get our money, I don't
want to see that bill, because we aren't going to build that performing arts center any time
in the near future. The Redevelopment Commission shouldn't be tagged with somebody
else's special project to get.in the way of what we really should be doing as a
Redevelopment Commission. That's where I'm coming from. I want to make sure when
we get money released to us we know that somebody else hasn't committed us to it
somewhere else in some other contract that we never saw or approved. I want to stop. that.
I want to draw a line in the sand right now and say we aren't doing that anymore.
Mr. Roesch: This is something else.that needs to be formalized and something our
attorney needs to look into and look into those contracts. Perhaps the contract could be
modified.
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Mr. Koven: Earlier we adopted two resolutions. One of which said we weren't spending
any money without the issuance of a purchase order which we then, most of us, turned
around and receded from. I still think that's where we need to be only so we can track
what's outstanding. This thing to me is just a piece of paper with black ink on it because
we don't know about it. Quite honestly, if we haven't issued a purchase order for it, we
shouldn't be obligated for it. And we shouldn't be issuing purchase orders for those
things we don't have money for because that's against the law and I still think we're
hanging out there as a commission for doing things that are inappropriate. For us to
approve something like this we should actually physically issue a purchase order to CSO.
They can call it contract addendum or whatever.
Ms. Boldt:.I've tried to address that myself on several different occasions. It is highly
irregular to purchase items without issuing a purchase order with one big exception and
that is services rendered under a contract.
Mr. Olds: We are the same as Karl in many respects. We are a professional services firm
and this issue has come up repeatedly, whether we operate under a purchase order and
working for a lot of different public agencies, we are basically issued a notice to proceed
rather than a purchase order. What happens, for example, on this document I submitted
today, we have to sit with Kate, give her the breakdown and Kate issues an amendment or
addendum to the contract outlining what we've put here, plus the City terms, or what are
required. And she gives me a notice to proceed.
Mr. Koven: I don't think Kate's even in this loop.
Mr. Staehler: From the Engineering perspective she is.. She always has been.
Ms. Snyder: But we're a special entity and the City cannot create a contract for this unit
to be responsible for. For background here, the City Council is working on adjusting the
ordinances so that for City use, if the Board of Public Works passes a contract, it's got
five days to be reviewed by the Council so that the Finance Committee can confirm
there's enough money to pay the contract. If five days passes and nobody stops it, then
it's a legal contract, it passes review. The real problem is the review is going to be very
hard to pass because most of our contracts are like this. They are contracts that were
started a long time ago with add-ons all the way down the line. It would be very easy to
find out if you have enough money if every contract or change to a contract has to be
tagged to.a line item through a purchase order. But we don't do that yet but we're going
to get there because we have to get there because you and John are absolutely right.
We've taken step one. We've got to go on to other steps to tag it. But right here we've
got a body that is obligating this body and they have no right to do so.
Mr. Koven: I want to go back to Les and say I can appreciate what you're,saying about
being professional services, but I would say to you, that every contract that you bring
would have to be a new contract because I'd want to give you a purchase order for that
amount and that would be a "not to exceed" amount. We're going to give.Karl some
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authorization to work on the Goodyear building. I think we should give him a purchase
order and say "not to exceed 53500." I don't want to, get a bill for $11,000 negotiating the
deal on that. If it's going to exceed that then you need to call Rick or somebody and say
so.
Mr. Roesch: We don't know with the way things operated until this time what's been said
or what you've been told. We need to look at ways things like this won't happen going
ahead. This kind of goes back to when we were formed. There were visions. There wasn't
a Redevelopment Commission. There had to be some ideas rendered. I think those things
were done by City Administration. Once we were formed, issued some bonds, got some
money, things shouldn't go from one pocket to another and we shouldn't be one of those
pockets. We have to review our own contracts. Our attorney's going to review the
contracts.
Nis. Boldt: We're the ones who are ultimately going to be held responsible.
Mr. Olds: The last meeting we had was probably the first time, in my opinion, it was
done in the proper manner where we presented an idea, what we suggested to be done.
We gave you an estimate of the cost of that work which is in the minutes of your
meeting. We then were authorized, to proceed. We then followed up the next day with a
letter, outlining what the costs were, reflecting the credits we talked about at the meeting.
And we added a few things to that which were lingering which we hadn't discussed at the
meeting. But that was the first time that we've done it in an appropriate manner. When
we give you an estimate of services, we stand behind it, unless there's a scope of change.
The only thing that is hard for us is when we have to go outside our firm to get something
done, like printing. On those other issues when the City called, they got a quote passed
back, not only to the City but to the Mayor's office saying this is what it's going to cost
to get it done. Now in all honesty a lot of those costs, because the Mayor's office paid for
a number of those things through the years, at points I guess they ran out of money and
then they appeared on your bill. The last meeting was the first time that we did it in an
appropriate manner and the proper paperwork was generated. The only thing that was
maybe out of sequence was that we proceeded with the work before a purchase order or a
signed approval was,granted for that work. But again since we had committed to be done
by the next meeting we proceeded in good faith. There may be times when we will step
out of sequence and do something that's not approved. That's our fault. Shame on us.
Mr. Wilson: Is this Commission or is the City going to be receiving billings from each of
your firms [to Mr. Haas and.Mr. Olds] that are six figure billings that are unpaid?
Mr. Haas and Mr. Olds both said no. Mr. Olds continued: I think there's a misconception
also. If you look at the amount of money that's listed, for example, for our contract, the
amount of the contract, the amount of work that's been done, a lot of that work we've not
proceeded with it. We have not moved ahead with it without authorization and we would
not move ahead unless we had someone authorize us to do that work. So the amount of
money that you owe us is not in the six figures by any means.
12
[Inaudible due to several speaking at once.]
Mr. Koven: I know you've been issued a contract for $240,000 for the design of a
performing arts center.
Mr. Olds: $260,000. We have been paid $104,000. The balance which will be paid on it
is $36,000; which is billed to Artech. I've been paying Artech.
Mr. Koven: Why are we paying anything on that thing? I assure you there are not enough
votes here that we're going to build that thing. I'm looking at that, saying that's $135,000
that's wasted. We got the cart before the horse.
Mr. Olds: I don't think it was wasted. I think it was information and programming, stuff
that was put together as a stimulus for what will be given to the community. The belief
was if you want to talk about that you have to have something to show people.
Several Commission members noted: That did not come from the Commission.
Mr. Olds: I understand.
Mr. Koven [to Mr. Haas]: I'd like you to put a resolution together for us that actually
states nothing is to be done without direction from the Commission.
Mr. Haas: I think that was the resolution that you adopted on procedures.
Mr. Roesch: We need to backtrack and review existing contracts that came before the
Commission was involved.
Mr. Haas: Where we are now is a period of transition. The contract Les has clearly wasn't
adopted in accordance with the procedures resolution that you adopted.
Mr. Koven: We killed that.
Mr. Roesch: No,.the one that adopts the procedures where you can't spend any more
than...
Mr. Haas: A small amount.
Mr. Koven: But that was all in the same resolution.
Mr. Haas: So you have a procedures resolution.
Mr. Koven: No, we don't.
Mr. Roesch: That was adopted, the procedures resolution, which is the one that basically
says an appraisal can't be ordered, nothing can be done.
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There was disagreement whether this had been•approved.
Ms. Snyder: We need to get it out_:becausenttiere'is confusion here
Mr. Koven: There is definitely confusion„because,I introduced it„it was passed, and two
meetings later it was amended and changed.,
Mr. Haas: Right. It was ainended;and changed.
Mr. Koveni It should never have been.
Mr. Haas: If-you'll give me'the email addresses„ I'll sendtitout so everyone has it.
At, any rate we're in a transition.'Les, is eaught in the transition.
Mr. KGven: I understand that; But it's not:going'iobe yerydifficult:to draw a.lineain the
sand and say, "Stop it ov&r, ere. We're going-to start'fresh.over here: Tell uswhat,the
carryover is and let's go on down the path." That's where we need to g6Vto.
The Coinrnission members,agreed.
Mr. Olds: Everything that.has been contracted to CSO,"I believe, is listed on the.sheet.
We recently'did some crosschecking. I°,m,pretty sure the'sheefthat sho?vs the
architectural/cttgineeringaervices is pretty correct,
Mr. Koven: $627,000?
Mr. Olds: Right. That is based on the;contractamount.and the changes that have
occurred. We're numbering the changes but some of them are City work-changqs. And
we work pretty hard to keep it accurate..Our books are open. We've got spreadsheets
covering every piece that we're trying to make sure'everything'is properly covered and
documented, properly charged to the right,agency.
Mr. Koven: What I would ask you to bring at-the next mecting is a detail of every single
pieee,or parceILof a contractfor which ".a contract existed: showing what's been•paid,
what's still left to be paid because,at that point in time we have the option, j thiiik, of
canceling those; contracts because.they weren't really... I. mean the halance.of any
contract on thegperforming;arts center, I will vote"to cancel.-If and,when we decide to do
thatthing, we'll go back=and, issue it burl don't:wantto have that, cohttngency.ltanging
out there that we may do somewhere down the road. I don't-want,you obligated-I don't
want to be obligated for it.
ice." Olds By the•way when-we submif out;bills to the,City for the work, we,have , a
spread sheetsthat.is attached to our bill. We have a.master spreadsheet:that shows the
contract amount, the.work completed, what'.s'been;done and the amount of this bill.
14
Ms. Snyder: We.don't.see that. We need to get that to'us. It-isn't your-fault because.I
know you've been told to do it.a particular way. This $260,000 contract was approved by
the Board,of Public Works onour behalf and they dad,absolufely no,right to do that. Or.
authority`and it's not going,to:be happen again.
Mr. Wilson asked who keeps the resolutions,; ordinances and minutes for;the CRCiand
was told those are`available froin:PhyHis Morrissey, as part-of ilie.secretarial,support.
Mr. Roesch: I keep going'back;to this projection. We've been talking about it for:months.
It's not in enough detail to show us when stuff s.goingto come in and when it's going'to
go out and how much the dollars are.
Mr. 'Koven:' I've.never saved one`of those yet. t. think it's j ust a: worthless piece of paper.
Mr. Roesch:' The only ieason I save it,;is;to go back; because if I hnd one of these items
that varies; I :want.to know why.
Mr. Koven: There will be notrack record as to why it varies.
Ms. Mielke said those come directly from the Pentamation reports which are processed
by the City so there is documentationfor tbe;nunibers: "That's nottrue,- that it can't.be
tracked.."
Mr. Koven: I'm not arguing, with you. I'ni ust saying I'd rather know what. our
obiigations?are by purchase order: What.have we committed ourselves to versus what are
potential things-outhere.
Mr. Staehler :My problem is, I don't know'what you:guys want. You want one thing. You
want another thing..I don't really know what `Luci wants.'I feel responsible for getting
this out. The reason Ibrought ,up the Pentamation, is because somebody'iadicated-the
numbers were meaningless. The numbers are not necessarily meaningless because we can
refer diem back to a•document that has been .acceptable from.the, Clerk's office.
Mr. Koven: But to the it is.meani'ngless'because we have a demolition, figure on here that
we haven't issued°a contract for. We have a Goodyear purchase number on here of
$1,200,000 that we haven,tcommitted'to. I coul'd,go right on down here. There arethings
that we have riot committed to that are on here. Consequently; when,we get our money
freed up, from these:two sales, if we don't:have a ipurchase.orderoutstanding, we're not
committed. So the number`doesn't mean anything. This is actuallyobligating money'that
is really not-obligated.
Mr. Staehler:'I'm not sure :it's' obligated. It just identifies,the potential;. it's a projection. I
agree with ,you. ,I=m just not sure whatyou.want:
Mr.-Koven:.I don't think it's your,problem'to get'there atthis point
I5
Mr..Roesch: I can fell'you what I`look for right ,now. That is a breakdown of what the
inflows and outflows.are_ going,to be projected,on an;ongoing basis.,I thinkAmy
understands this...
Mr. Boldtr Oh yes. They should at least be quarterly:.:
Mr. 5taehler:. Based on the revenue,projections,we've got now,.you're talking about
anywhere:'from 54,000 to $7,000 per month depending on when the, accounts,a-reTecorded
and the interest bearing accounts.and CDs are recorded.
[Inaudible because of several talking<at once.]
Mr. Koven: Wejust got a perfect.exaniple right here'though. L&just gave me.this. It's
the updated thing he.always submits with their: bills. Everything'in yellow is outside our
purview. One of them on here is:the Fite De partment•storage and,restrooms for'.$375.;000.
We have it on ours and tie's got it as being the City's. Les pointed outthat is his
interpretation. We're notgoing to build.a storage building for the Fire.Department,and
restrooms on,the.Monon trail,
,Ms. Boldt` [Inaudible] services in a,letter we were provided has not been apparently
signed.by either Kate,-,the-Mayor or anybody else internally so you;have no internal
control as to what was the order...
Mr.,Staehler: This was'a proposal: Ithas-not'been signed off, onyet
-Mr. Olds: This is.a proposal Based oii:a meeting that outlined my understanding, I
submitted a.proposa1. hgave it to the Director, your agent, to make distribution to the
Commission.
Mr. Staehler: Which was.done here tonigh't..
Mr. Koven:' It shouldn't be you that siansAt. Somebody'help me understand: A copy to
Mayor Brainard is. fine buthdon't see whatKate Weese:has to do with anything we're
doing.
Mr. Staehler: Kate's. been, I oo kin g•at it as our engineer.
Mr. Koven: But to me that's outside the purview ofwhat _We're doing. That's between
their and her.
Mr. Staehler: My policy has been,.and thatcan,be,changed:very easily, but 'l don't,
approve any of his [CSO] Bills unless Kate signs off or them.
Mr..Koven: I'thinkpart'ofthat is because•she'has to separatewhat's CRC and what's
City. If this was done on the fi-ontend it wouldn't,waste Kate's time. Anything,they have
to do that's engineering-wise, they kmow-how.•to find'Kate. She, was at one; of our
t6
meetings. I don't think Kate needs to be at our meetings: I don't think Kate has a stake in.
anything we're doing. Engineerihg=wise her responsibilities are outside,ofour
Commission meetings.
Mr. Haas: Except I think Kate gives advice on exactly what services:are required ;to, carry
out...
Mr. Olds 'She,administers this contract. If I want to cliange this contract,1:have to ask
Kate. Kate is the only one who can change th srcontract [because it's a Board, o£. Works
contract]..
Mr. Koven. So what I'm saying is-i f.we separate those two, now Kate's.cut..,,
Mr. Haas: Except then theCommission,is left without an:expert omexactly-what
atchitectural_ and engineering work ought to he performed and how,much,it should cost.
Mr: Koven: I dbn,,t care if she reviews it, but her. approval.of that stuff tome is a::moot
point.
[Inaudible-because o£se'veril speaking-at once.]
Mr.'Koven: The point is, she can't'sign•it for the Redevelopment Commission.
General agreement was expressed.
Ms. Spyder: But it certainly would be helpful io_haVe her look`af it.
Mr..KQven: But,we don't know if"shereviews°it; anyway; so how will we know...
Mr: Staehler: I do.
Mt. Koven: Okay, but I guess I'm saying we assume khen;something comes to us; it's
already been-through that hoop. If it,comes to you, you or-you, make sure it goes to Kate
before it ever gets to,us. Ifit doesn't gef to her I don't even want,to see it: But she.doesn't
have.to be part of that approval iproces& rind I agree, what she's doing is separating those
two, administering that contract, arid`ifwe.separate it, there's no longer a need to
administer'fft, contract; You've got a• City,contractwith the Board of Public Works and
you've got a• Redevelopment Commission contract. We can handle;that..It makes your
soli easier-.
Mr. Roesch' So do we want,to do'this,amendmentto the contracts tonight?
Ms. Snyder:J think- we've,asked Kart to do that for us.
Mr. Koven: I'm,not sure Idid see that,amended+thing; burl know we did away with.
pureliase orders; the whole. shebang.,,.,
17
Ms. Snyder. Yes,d thought we did, the second' meeting...
Mr. Koven: Because ifwe,didn't.then we're operatingin.violation of our, own'proceddres
by not issuing purchase orders. [Inaudible] procedures that,I put into place:
Mr. Haas: Actually neither of those resolutions called for purchase'orders.
Mr. Koven: Oh-yes They did. Absolutely, they did,
Mr. Haas: They both,called,for'approval of?spending caps.
Mr. Koven:; And the issuance_ofa purchase order: ]-wrote it. I.guarantee you„the original
one called for the.issuance..:"there was to be no expenditure without the issuance; 1 ,,had
the procedure,: spelled out in there. It-was-modified;..
Mr. Roesch: Lets look'at what we came up'with. I-don'tthink anyorie can spend _overa
hundred dollars without us knowing,it.
Mr.Koven: The one I introduced, the one wepassed; called-for, purchase orders.
Mr. Roesch: I can't remember, what. We modified.
Mr. Stachler to Mr. Haas: You're.going:to,email everyone... [inaudible].
Ms. Boldt: It's a shame we'ra not;in the.conference room. ,There's one:big binder
Mr. Olds- If I may-go back to the document, my suggestion°is we proceed with the bid
package with the alternates we have prepared right, here We;will go back and come up
with alternate designs that we need to get back to the Commission to take a look :at..And
then hopefully get them"reissued as an addendum to?the bidding documents but. not to
miss the bidding sequence.- Or would the Commission like to extend from the November
meeting and wait; and get.bids in December? If we haven't (and I need'to'talk;to the
attorney) violated ouragreement,with Mr..Kestner:
Mr. Haas: I don't remember whaf the schedule. is.
Mr. Olds: The "s"chedule was that we'd be doing this work this winter, the beginning of
winter, based onhis.ability ,to.start7in the spring.
Mr. Haas: 'The bids need to.be.issued. The bid-packages need to be out for_the work we
have-to do.
Mr- Olds: Since.Fm taking:altemates, if we;r ,not going to take=any of the.alternates, I
just have to have an-adaptable wall design or something to replace this:
is
Ms. Mielke returned with the CRC binder' of resolutions aud'ptoceeded.to look for the
resolution,'in question. [Inaudibie]
Ms. Boldtmoved the order of the agenda be;changedto allow Ms. Young to speak.
Following a second`by Mr: Koven, the motion was approved.
Beth Young from Bose McKinney andEvans gave :a report and presented an affidavit for
payment of legal, obligations in regard to Merchant Square acquisitions. Itwas- suggested
by Ms. Young that we hold back $18,840. This would be broken down, as $14,000for
land, $1,500 for the estimated Title Company fees and,S3,500 for professional fees. It
was reported that'bond'proceeds•are with the principal'reported at $84,000: Mr.
Koven requested an explanation as,to the:role Bose. McKinney and Evans is taking and
why. Ms, Young explained that, they'were,brought in to take over and distribute the'bond.
proceeds for Ice Miller. Mr. Roesch asked.if Ms. Young>was°familiar with any
information in regard, to the status of First Indiana Bank..Mr, Roesch suggested.that Doug,
Haney be contacted in regard'to the: status' of First Indiana. Mr. Roesch will further
review the Affidavit for Paymcni-and will report -next meeting.
Discussion then,occurred in regard to the submission of bills to CRC: Mr.,Roesch
suggested and it was agreed that.bills be sent.to°us directly without approval of the City
Legal Department-
Financial Report
Mr. Staehier was asked to provide the Financial Report. Itwas'reported that $16;000 cash
is available at, this.time.
Following Ike Financial Repoirt; a discussion took; place aboutthe Helsel Christmas tree
contract..Mr. Haas suggested that a License be issued and that he would, follow-up,in.this
regard. Mr. Helsel received unanimous approval for se_ ttin ,up his.Christinas trees in the
Kroger lot-as usual.
Invoices
Mr. Roesch;presented`$45,131.68 in innvoices. Mr: Koven motioned that the invoices be
approved for payment on the- contingency, that the City Council approves the resolution,to
free the money from the Build Indiana fund. Ms. Boldtquestioned Mr. Haas about the
amounts and terms ,ofthc leases in the Kestner building, Mr.,Haas will report, once this,
information is obtained.
Notices,of Meetings
Mr. Roesch asked for Noti_ce.to be given for an Executive. Session-following,regular
meetings.
Adiournment
Ms, Snyder gave a.motion to adjourn at 10:07;p.m: The motion was seconded-by,Amy
Bolt. The meeting was`adjourned.
19