HomeMy WebLinkAboutMinutes Sub 03-05-02CARMEL /CLAY PLAN COMMISSION
SUBDIVISION COMMITTEE
MARCH 05, 2002
The regularly scheduled meeting of the Subdivision Committee met on March 03, 2002 at
7:00 PM in the Caucus Rooms of City Hall,
Members present were: Dave Cremeans; Marilyn Anderson, ex- officio; Dan Dutcher;
Wayne Haney; Ron Houck; and Maureen Pearson.
Jon Dobosiewicz was in attendance representing the Department of Community Services.
Item I.Docket No. 159 -01- PP, The Townhomes at Hazel Dell
Petitioner seeks approval to plat a ninety -nine lot subdivision on 23.95 acres. The
site is located northwest of East I I6 Street and Hazel Dell Parkway. The site is
zoned R -2 /Residence.
The petitioner also seeks approval of the following Subdivision Waivers:
159 -01aSW SCO 7.0.1 Minimum distance between units of 6;
159 -01bSW SCO 7.6.3 Minimum width of 75' for Open Space
159 -01cSW SCO 6.3.20 Every Residential subdivided property shall
be served from a public street
159 -01dSW SCO 6.3.24 Frontage Place exceeds 600' and does not terminate
at street
159 -01eSW SCO 6.5.1 Minimum lot frontage of 50' at right -of -way line.
Filed by Paul Rioux of Platinum Properties
Jim Nelson appeared before the Committee representing the applicant. Paul Rioux of
Platinum Properties was also present.
Following the public hearing, the petitioner had additional meetings with the Department
and the neighborhood. Comments made at those meetings as well as comments made by
the Subdivision Committee were taken into consideration and the plans were revised in
an attempt to address those comments.
The density was shifted from south to north to the extent possible, and greater separation
between the buildings was provided. In the area south of the southern-most drive, there
are now 8 buildings; previously there were 10. The distance between the buildings has
been expanded from 25 feet to 65 feet. In addition, the petitioner has provided for
architectural diversity with respect to the front elevation of the individual townhomes,
thus eliminating all one building material or "all one cover."
Paul Rioux of Platinum Properties further described the changes made. Mr. Rioux said
he had met on two occasions with the neighboring homeowners groups. Previously, there
were 10 buildings proposed on the plan that fronted on Hazel Dell Parkway, 12 buildings
in total. In response to comments and public input, two buildings have been eliminated
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from the Hazel Dell front, and additional units have been added to the north as far as
logically possible. Lake Forest and Brookfield Subdivisions will not be connected by
street. The buildings have also been "turned" so there is less exposure to Lake Forest.
There will be mounding and fencing in the area from the south to Mr. Pursel's property
that is more exposed. Platinum properties committed to continue the fence south of the
property. The exposed area of facade seen by the Lake Forest residents has been reduced
by 25 The buildings have been separated by 65 feet in each case and additional
parking has been added for a total of 88 off street spaces. The parking was "flipped" to
the east side of the road. An additional 200 feet of open space has also been created.
At last evening's meeting, re- locating the open space to the south close to Lake Forest
was discussed; this would be one less building exposed to the neighbors. Mr. Rioux said
one main concern was the architectural design of the buildings. The desired appearance
is that of individual residences rather than one large facade of one color and more like an
apartment. An artist's rendering was displayed showing alternating front and style:
shutters, bay windows, boxed -out windows, and a set -off of three feet gives each of the
buildings a "home look" and individual character.
In regard to the rear elevation of the buildings, there are two alternatives. For the
buildings that face Lake Forest community, brick will appear 3 stories high on the end
units as well as the entire side of the buildings; the interior units will have vinyl.
Architectural standards will be committed to and in accordance with the recorded plat.
Lastly, the petitioner is willing to commit to no floodlights, no exterior lighting other than
coach lights, and wrought iron on the porches. At the end of 200 feet of fence at the
south end, the beginning of the Pursel property, mounding and landscaping will be
incorporated.
Jon Dobosiewicz referred to the Department Report that mentioned items to be addressed
by the petitioner such as providing additional open space area to the south and additional
landscaping. In addition, the Department requests a copy of the commitments regarding
set -backs prior to returning to the full Commission. Also, the revisions to the landscape
plan must be reviewed by Scott Brewer, Urban Forester, to confirm that the plantings are
equivalent or exceed the original number of plant materials. It looks as if additional
shrubs and evergreens have been added for buffering. The Department is agreeable to the
number and placement of parking spaces and the re- distribution of the buildings
specifically addresses concerns raised at the previous Committee meeting.
In response to additional letters received from the public, everything received since last
Friday has been distributed to the Committee members and, in fact, all Plan Commission
members.
In response to questions from Dave Cremeans, Jon Dobosiewicz asked if the Committee
really wanted a part in determining the colors of the buildings and referring this item to
the Special Study Committee for approval or whether or not the Subdivision Committee
is satisfied with the project as revised. Jon Dobosiewicz said the Department is satisfied
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with the revisions, i.e. the shutters that individualize the homes, windows at the rear,
windows would also help dress -up the side of the buildings.
Ron Houck asked if the written commitments were available this evening. Jim Nelson
said it was not previously known exactly what the commitments were going to be.
However, there is a set of written commitments on file that deal with the 6 -acre pocket of
open space to the north, and the intention is to formalize the site plan and the specific
commitments.
Ron Houck expressed concern with the view between the building and parking lot. Will
these areas be open asphalt, or landscaped. There should be some plantings to shield this
area from view.
Paul Riox said that in each case, the parking spaces are pretty -well shielded from view.
At the perimeter, there is a lot of landscaping, something like 900 shrubs planned. Some
of the landscaping will be shifted to the south end, but the numbers remain the same. The
petitioner would like to trade -off numbers to the side, although Scott Brewer is not
confident that large trees would survive. Mr. Rioux believes there is a large amount of
plant material; if 300 large trees would work would work rather than 475 small trees, a
better job could be done of screening. It is also difficult to fit 475 small trees on the site.
Jon Dobosiewicz recommended that landscaping provisions be included at Scott
Brewer's discretion; the Committee has the ability, and this could be included as a part of
the motion.
Ron Houck asked the distance of the setback from Hazel Dell to the garage; Jon
Dobosiewicz said the distance from the Hazel Dell right -of -way would be 18 feet plus the
driveway, plus an additional 20 feet for a total of approximately 60 feet from the edge of
pavement.
Marilyn Anderson had some comments regarding the smaller trees. It is less of a shock
to a tree -root system to plant smaller trees; in a few years, the smaller trees "catch up" to
the larger trees and there is little visual difference. It is the initial planting that is a visual
difference in size versus quantity. Marilyn agreed that this should be left up to Scott
Brewer. Marilyn Anderson also asked about the increase in the greenspace to the south
and what neighbors supported this change.
Wayne Haney commented that this is a very difficult site; the petitioner is proposing 97
units. The proposal will put 3 to 400 people in the area and 200 plus cars into the narrow
strip of land. The units are three -story walk -ups, most with no rear yard, no side yard,
minute front yard, and no recreational amenities in or near this site. This proposal is too
dense a development with absolutely no amenities and a view of traffic on Hazel Dell.
Dave Cremeans allowed additional public input:
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Chad Randall, Forest Park Lane, representing Lake Forest Subdivision, opposes the
development and would like to understand better the "labor situation." Mr. Randall
submitted a petition of homeowners in opposition. Lake Forest Subdivision is relatively
active and has met with Michael Hollibaugh regarding this proposed development. The
density is still opposed. There are concerns that could be legitimized, but the waivers
being sought by the petitioner will affect the product and the immediate area. The
homeowners had the following questions: 1) Is this the highest and best use of the land?
2) The R -2 Zoning and height of the structure, (maximum height is 25 feet); 3) the depth
of the lots; and 4) the practical difficulty associated with the site. Under the Open Space
Ordinance, there is a difference between a major subdivision and a minor subdivision
what is this? Even though R -2 provides for minimal lot sizes and minimal lot standards,
according to Chapter 7, these can be voided. The Open Space Ordinance allows the
proposed density. The practical difficulty has been self imposed by the developer and the
property should not be developed by granting waivers that will indirectly affect the Lake
Forest Homeowners.
The combination of the three -story structures and the waivers is not acceptable. A two
story structure would be considered acceptable by the Lake Forest Homeowners. Lake
Forest is proud of its neighborhood and environment that includes parks recognized by
the National Forestry Association as well as the National Assoc. of Homebuilders.
Dan Kane, 12419 Springbrooke Run, representing 25 homeowners in northern Lake
Forest and the southern portion of Springbrooke —those persons most affected by the
proposed development, are in full support of this development. The previous proposals
by Stout Development were not acceptable to any of the adjoining neighbors. The
property is zoned R -2 and does allow the proposal. At some point in time, the property
will be developed, and we have the opportunity to approve what is most palatable.
Again, the 25 homeowners that Mr. Kane represents fully support this proposal.
Robert Garnsen, 5201 Purcel Lane, has been opposed to this project all along and asks
that it not be approved. However, two -story structures to include the 6 acres to the north
would lower the density that is being addressed two months in a row. Mr. Garnsen could
not understand why the northern portion is not being developed. It would be preferable
to have the buildings facing each other with their backsides facing the adjoining
developments. If the waivers are approved, Mr. Garnsen asked that all commitments be
submitted in writing. Also, 475 trees and 900 shrubs into an area like this would offer an
opportunity to put in trees on a "two for one" basis; for instance one tree of 3 or 4 caliper
versus two trees at 1 /2 caliper. This would also offer immediate screening as opposed to
4 years growth. Mr. Garnsen asked that for each building needing a 75 foot waiver, the
developer will install two or more trees to the best visual advantage.
Pat Skiles? Agreed with comments made by Mr. Wayne Haney—Ms. Skiles is opposed
to the proposal for this type of housing.
Jon Dobosiewicz commented that there has been a lot of public input on this project and
the comments have been reviewed. Regarding the question brought up about standards
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and setback requirements, the Committee is reminded that they are in a solid position in
forwarding a recommendation to the full Commission, positive or negative. The density
has been brought up as an issue; the permitted density of this property under the R -2
zoning and under the Open Space Ordinance is 3.9 units per acre. Additional density is
allowed in exchange for providing additional open space. Regarding the height of the
structures —this is a package in a concept for the committee and the Plan Commission to
consider. Variance or waiver is not a "bad word." It is the ability for the Plan
Commission to use its judgment in determining whether or not the proposal by the
petitioner is equal to or superior to the requirements set forth in the Subdivision Control
Ordinance. In this case, the petitioner has provided evidence that they are providing a
situation equal to or superior to the requirements in the Ordinance. The current proposal
is a superior format as opposed to individual houses on 50 -foot wide lots, 6 feet between
the structures, and another access point onto Hazel Dell Parkway. However, that is not
what the Committee is being asked to consider. From a general standpoint, this is what
the Committee should be considering. With regard to legal precedent, it would not apply
in this case. The Metropolitan Board of Zoning Appeals VS McDonald's is not pertinent
to this issue. A lot of public input has been offered on this process and evidence
submitted that would help the Committee apply the Ordinance.
Unless there are specific questions on ideas presented and /or specific recommendations,
Jon Dobosiewicz requested a meeting with the petitioner's attorney and asked that the
commitments be crafted for submission to the Department and ultimate distribution with
the Department Report in advance of the full Commission meeting.
Jim Nelson clarified his understanding of the referred commitments. 1) The open space
now on file with the Department, 6 acres on the northern portion of the site, will be
developed in accordance with the site plan shown, subject to changes as recommended by
the DOCS and Plan Commission. 2) The landscape plan will be subject to final review
by Scott Brewer, Urban Forester, who might consider the substitution of plant material.
3) The petitioner will commit to the architectural design of the building represented by
drawings as shown to the Committee. 4) The DOCS will be responsible for the selection
or color palate of materials; the windows will have shutters, both front and back. 5) The
fence will be continued from the western property line down to the southern end and
across the southern end of the property. 6) Those buildings that face Hazel Dell Parkway
will have brick on the ends and the backs of the buildings.
Dave Cremeans said a major issue seems to be a three -story structure as opposed to two
stories.
Mr. Rioux said that Ryland Homes' product is a three -story product. One of the things
with these homes is that they are 1800 to 2200 square feet homes that will sell for
$150,000 to $225,000. You will not get first time homebuyers looking at these as an
alternative when you look at what is available in Carmel for that price. The life style,
type of life, and market appeal of this product will not attract children. The homes will
be low maintenance with no yards. The homes will attract professionals, couples,
divorcees, etc. If the homes were reduced to two stories, they would be 1100 to 1500
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square feet and would sell from $89,900 to $150,000. Two -story structures would
change the character, the price point, and the perception of this property.
Jon Dobosiewicz commented the proposal meets all of the standards of the Ordinance.
There are a lot of advantages to this product and there are a lot of concerns expressed.
All of the concerns need to be weighed by the Committee before forwarding a
recommendation to the full Commission.
Ron Houck commented the facade can be changed by varying the setback and the
materials used; also the window treatments. Ron asked for some variation in the facades
of the buildings so that it will look less like an apartment building. There is a perceived
need for screening as far as landscaping. Perhaps a larger count in some areas would
suffice as opposed to sprinkling larger trees throughout the entire area. Ron asked if
there were additional amenities, other than trails.
Ron Houck commented that when an item is forwarded to the Committee for review, it
deserves action.
Ron Houck then moved to forward Docket No. 159 -01 DP, Townhomes at Hazel Dell,
to the Commission with a favorable recommendation, with the request that the
Subdivision Waivers be considered together. The motion was seconded by Maureen
Pearson and voted 4 in favor, one opposed (Wayne Haney). MOTION APPROVED.
Item 2. Docket No. 24 -02 ADLS Long Branch Estates Subdivision, Temporary Sales
Office Identification Sign.
Petitioner seeks approval to amend their Architectural Design, Lighting,
Landscaping Signage for a temporary sales office identification sign. The site
is located on Lot 42 in Long Branch Estates Subdivision. The site is zoned S-
1 /Residential.
Filed by Pulte Homes of Indiana
Paul Rioux of Platinum Properties appeared before the Committee as developer of Long
Branch Estates located at 116 Street and Shelborne Road. Pulte Homes is the builder in
the Subdivision.
The petitioner is requesting a temporary sales office identification sign.
Jon Dobosiewicz said that with the revision of the Subdivision Ordinance, standards for
signage is now addressed and this is an item that will be seen frequently in the next few
months as signage is brought before the Committee. The Department's recommendation
is for approval.
Dan Dutcher moved for approval of Docket No. 24 -02 ADLS, Long Branch Estates
Subdivision, Temporary Sales Office Identification Sign. The motion was seconded
by Ron Houck and APPROVED 5 -0.
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Item 3. Docket No. 26 -02 ADLS, Long Branch Estates Subdivision, Subdivision Sign
Petitioner seeks approval to amend their Architectural Design, Lighting,
Landscaping 7 Signage for a subdivision sign. The site is located at the
intersection of 116 Street and Long Branch Lane. The site is zoned S-
1 /Residential.
Filed by Northside Investments, LLC.
Paul Rioux of Platinum Properties appeared before the Committee requesting a
Subdivision sign for entrance into the Long Branch Estates community on the wing wall.
Jon Dobosiewicz reviewed the current proposal for signage located on either side of the
wing wall, up- lighted. The signage is allowed under the current Ordinance.
Ron Houck asked about the materials for the sign. The petitioner said the sign will be cut
limestone with black letters, centered on the brick wing wall.
Maureen Pearson moved for approval of Docket No. 26 -02 ADLS, Long Branch
Estates Subdivision Sign. The motion was seconded by Ron Houck and APPROVED
5 -0.
Un- numbered Item. Docket No. 150 -01 DP Amend /ADLS Amend, Stewart
Stewart Office Building, received verbal approval at the Commission meeting on
February 19, 2002 (Ron Houck recused.) The Commission members that were present at
that meeting were requested to fill out the formal Findings of Fact.
Reminder to the Committee: Architectural Standards items are to be submitted to Jon
Dobosiewicz at the DOCS.
The meeting was adjourned at 8:20 PM.
Dave Cremeans, Chairperson
Ramona Hancock, Secretary
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