HomeMy WebLinkAboutMinutes Sub 03-30-041,1`I y G`'`y of Cq,9y C ity
CARMEL PLAN COMMISSION
SUBDIVISION COMMITTEE
TUESDAY, MARCH 30, 2004
Minutes
Due to the Carmel School System spring break, the Subdivision Committee met on Tuesday, March
30, 2004 in lieu of the first Tuesday in April. The Committee met in the Caucus Rooms of City
Hall, Carmel, Indiana.
Committee members in attendance: Stephanie Blackman; Dan Dutcher; Rick Ripma; Susan
Westermeier, thereby establishing a quorum.
Adrienne Keeling attended the meeting on behalf of the Department of Community Services.
The Subdivision Committee considered the following items:
1. Docket No. 04010022 PP: Stanford Park (formerly Burlingame)
The applicant seeks to plat a residential subdivision of approximately 224 lots.
The petitioner also seeks the following subdivision waiver:
Docket No. 04010023a SW SCO 6.5.1 minimum lot frontage
The site is located on Shelborne Rd, just north of West 131 st Street. The site is
zoned both R -4 /Residence and R -2 /Residence.
Filed by Steve Pittman for PPV, LLC.
Steve Pittman, Pittman Partners appeared before the Committee representing the applicant. Also
in attendance, Neal Smith, Pittman Partners, and Brad Little, Exec. Director, Carmel Dad's Club.
Steve Pittman gave a brief timeline of the meetings with the Department, adjacent, individual
homeowners, neighborhood groups, and surrounding property owners, including Drees Homes,
Centex Homes and Ryland Homes. Zoning is fluid and subject to change; it is not etched in stone.
In looking at this proposal, there are concessions being given and some being received
$200,000 in roadway improvements, extension of 136 Street, the Dad's Club sports facility, etc.
In addition to the Carmel School System, the Carmel Dad's Club has helped this community in
terms of housing values.
The facility for the Dad's Club will create some additional traffic, but the overall feeling is that the
facilities should be spread out through the community rather than just the east side of Carmel to
Badger field.
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In addition to the Traffic Operations Analysis done by the petitioner, an independent analysis was
done. It was determined that the Traffic Operations Analysis is accurate, and the road system
could handle not only the proposed development but other developments currently being
proposed. There were still concerns expressed about the impact the Dad's Club would have on
the area, would the fields be lighted, etc.
As a result of concerns expressed the petitioner made a very detailed and significant list of
commitments-24 of them. These commitments were recorded and subsequently amended to
provide a shadow -box fence in place of the chain link fence to contain the dogs on the neighbor's
property. Scott Brewer, Urban Forester, has asked that the maintenance costs for the fence be
borne by the Homeowners Association, not the adjacent property owner.
Steve Pittman commented that Pittman Partners is also willing to provide a mound on the
neighbor's property, since the neighbor has removed a number of trees. This was agreed upon,
but not included in the written commitments. Steve Pittman referred to revised commitments
made on the property and reviewed them for the committee.
There were two issues outstanding. The entrance layouts along Shelbourne Road as they relate to
the Thoroughfare Plan and required roadway improvements along the property frontage. The
petitioner has reached an agreement with the Department to a 3 -foot road widening and a 3 -foot
stone shoulder with full accel/decel lanes and entry ways, to the extent of $54,000. The petitioner
has also agreed to the level of credit for existing trees along the perimeter prior to presenting a
final site landscaping layout for the review by the Committee.
Steve Pittman referred to the Open Space Ordinance. In R -4 Zoning, if a developer provides 25%
open space, he can develop to a density of 8 units per acre. The R -4 ground in Stanford Park
comprises 12.146 acres with 4.04 acres of common area or 36.26 Only 78 units will be
constructed, so the density computes to 6.42 units per acre. Based on the amount of open space
being provided, an increase in density is allowed. However, it is not the developer's intention to
max -out the density. The R -2 ground consists of 64.28 acres and provides 20% open space;
therefore, a density of 3.9 units per acre is permitted. The overall total for common area is
30.66% for 210 units, (3.26 units per acre). Based upon the common area being provided, the
developer is allowed 4.25 units per acre or 273.25 units an additional 98 units on the site. The
commitments prevent that from happening.
The petitioner has every intention of meeting every commitment made on this project.
In response to questions from the public, Steve Pittman said that with the extension of 136
Street through the project, there would be traffic exiting onto Shelbourne Road that has nothing
to do with the Stanford Park project. Stanford Park and the use of the fields on Saturdays at
practice times will add its fair share of traffic. The Dad's Club will either limit the use of the fields
or employ traffic control. The traffic issue has been dealt with.
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Stephanie Blackman condensed the concerns into two main issues there were voiced at the time of
the Rezone and expressed in previous meetings. Those concerns are density and traffic/ parking.
The Commission, the Department and the Developer have worked to get those issues addressed.
The traffic is undisputed. Former Commission member Marilyn Anderson lives in this area and
was concerned about the traffic generated by the Dad's Club. The steps taken to remedy that
were as follows. The commitment of $200,000 to roadway improvements at that intersection
went a long way to address the concerns. The comprehensive traffic study was discussed
extensively and resolved. The final step was the addition of an entrance and adjusting parking in
order to ease the traffic flow.
Committee comments:
Dan Dutcher was not in favor of the garages at the front and asked about the stub street
connection. Also, do the limited roadway improvements include the trail connection?
Steve Pittman responded the Department is hard -core regarding connectivity —the connection
was required. When the adjoining property is developed, there will be a connection. The road
can be pulled back 20 feet —the right -of -way will still exist so that the road could be extended at
some time in the future. A 10 -foot asphalt trail is being provided. Right -of -way was requested
from adjacent neighbors, but they were not willing to provide that.
Rick Ripma commented that straightening Shelbourne Road will make a huge difference in the
area and certainly help traffic.
Members of the public:
Kimberly Lipps, 12325 Echo Drive, Shelbourne Park (Drees Community) questioned the
Rezone to R -2 and R -4. Ms. Lipps was not noticed and questioned the process. Ms. Lipps was
opposed to 1200 square foot homes backing up to her 5700 square foot home. Ms. Lipps also
asked what would ensure commitments from the Dad's Club being in place 5 years from now or
10 years from now —there could be amendments that would change the rules /policies.
Steve Pittman stated that the Notice Requirement under the Rules of Procedure is to property
owners 2 deep or 660 feet, whichever is less.
Steve Golden, 12425 Beckwith Drive questioned setbacks and buffer area/open space
Michael Claytor, 13881 Shelbourne Road, stated this project is the most dense ever in western
Clay Township. Mr. Claytor said he was opposed to the project at the rezone stage and is still
opposed by reason of density.
Debbie Winchester, (the other half of) 13881 Shelbourne Road, was also opposed to the density,
but said she planned to continue living there. Regarding the stub streetit would be much more
pleasing to have landscaping than the stub street run through the property line.
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Justin Kamm, 13323 Beckwith Drive, Shelbourne Park, was opposed by reason of traffic,
primarily, and the density.
Jim Backus, 13366 Dolshire Lane, said he had not been aware of the change in zoning. Mr.
Backus had problems with the density and school buses that will be on the roads carrying children
to and from this development. Traffic cuts through Mr. Backus' neighborhood, children on foot
as well. There is not adequate buffer.
Marsha Henry, 13850 Shelbourne Road, wanted to know why developers do not follow the
rules rather rezone and waivers.
Mike Horvath, 13360 Dolshire, commented that the south buffer around the lake has 160 -180
trees surrounding the pond and is beautiful. If 136 Street is to become a main thoroughfare,
traffic will be diverted through his neighborhood.
Commented about aesthetics. If the proposed plat is developed, the view will be all garages.
Is there a possibility the buildings could be flipped so they do not look at garages? The nice view
is from 136 Street, not the adjoining neighborhood.
Rebuttal: Steve Pittman said this is not the densest development in west Clay Township---Weston
Pointe is. Variances are not applied for at the rezone stage. Notice requirements were met.
Steve referred to "The Reserve at Springmill" homes that are in close proximity to the Thomson
Consumer Electronics buildings as a parallel to the current proposal that is adjacent to the City
street fleet facility. Traffic is always a concern. There will be buffer all the way around the
perimeter. Of course, everyone would prefer this land be left undeveloped. Steve said the issues
continue to be addressed.
Steve was asked what phase of the construction would include the 136 Street extension. The
road extension would probably be at the Secondary Plat phase, however, the developer would be
guided by the Department.
Stephanie Blackman asked about commitments from the Dad's Club and game times being
alternated. What requires the Dad's Club to stagger the game times. Steve Pittman said the
commitment for staggering the game times is being made by the developer and will be recorded in
the County Recorder's office. The Commitments are enforceable by the City as a violation. The
developer could ask for an amendment to the commitments and go through the process again,
send out public notices, appear before the Plan Commission again, etc. The neighborhood would
make the decision.
Steve Pittman said he was willing to pull the stub street back 20 feet and continue the buffer plan
through that area. The Plan Commission should have the final say by way of requirement.
Brad Little of the Dad's Club addressed the committee regarding team play. There are 24 teams,
practicing on three fields from 5:30 to 7:15 PM. These would be football games only—no other
sport.
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Stephanie Blackman reported to the public that any concerns regarding the Rezone should be
addressed to the Department the following day. What is before the Committee and the Plan
Commission at present is the Primary Plat.
Rick Ripman moved to forward Docket Nos. 04010022 PP and 04010023a SW, subdivision
waiver, Stanford Park to the full Commission with a positive recommendation, seconded by Dan
Dutcher and approved 4 -0.
2. Docket No. 04010027 OA:
Proposed Chapter 23F: Range Line Road /Carmel Drive Overlay Zone
The petitioner seeks to add new provisions regarding development standards for
properties along portions of Range Line Road and Carmel Drive to the Zoning
Ordinance.
Filed by the Department of Community Services.
This item was continued from the March 2nd Committee meeting. Mike Hollibaugh, Director, and
John Molitor, legal counsel, were in attendance.
Mike Hollibaugh addressed the Committee. Comments from the previous meeting have been
reviewed, although no new language has been adopted at this time. There is flexibility in the
proposed Overlay, and it is still being fine- tuned. The intent of the Overlay is to allow similar
type development until a thorough study of the area can yield more specific policies that would
support and build -on the development plans being put into place.
The Carmel Redevelopment Commission has been working on the area and the Plan Commission
is not always privy to the actions of the CRC. The CRC has created an "area of influence" for
potential development and creation of a central business district for the City of Carmel. The
Redevelopment Commission's charge is not the same as the Plan Commission in that theirs is
much more specific and they cannot do what they want without the help of the Plan Commission.
In the long term, the area wants to be more intense, urban design type core with central
businesses for the City of Carmel. The proposed Overlay Zone is one "baby step" toward that
end. A task force is always a good idea to look at this sort of thing and the Department can work
with that, but the hope is we will not have to do that and we can come up with some sort of
Ordinance that is workable.
Mike further stated that he had met with Maureen Merhoff of the Chamber and Mark Monroe of
Drewry, Pitts Simmons last week. Concerns were voiced and the dialogue continues. There is a
possibility of establishing some sort of sunset clause in the Ordinance so that some of those
concerns could be re- visited.
Stephanie Blackman said she had mixed emotions about a Task Force. Sometimes there is a lot of
talk, not a lot of action, and nothing gets accomplished. However, in forming a task force,
persons who are experts could be valuable as well as business representatives in the area with a
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personal and financial interest. Any task force would have to have a specific task, specific goals,
and specific time frame /deadline for recommendation to the Plan Commission.
Susan Westermeier thought that if "finite issues" were nailed down, a Task Force could study and
address key issues and report back to the Committee.
Public Input:
Dave Coots, Coots Henke Wheeler, 255 East Carmel Drive, spoke as a business and owner of
the building. Dave Coots said he had a little difficulty with the entire scope of the Overlay area
and how it was put together.... Carmel Drive from Keystone to Third Street SW, Range Line
Road to Old Towne area. As you look at the CRC proposal, Carmel Drive is in an area of
influence that the CRC is looking at now. Mr. Coots said he would like an opportunity to discuss
with either a Task Force or the Committee certain elements that are redundant with what exists in
the current Ordinance such as ADLS review requirement. Dave Coots said he was struggling
with the real rationale behind the percentage requirement (20 in enlarging the existing use and
did not see the flexibility in the document.
Mark Fineberg, property owner in the Carmel Drive /Rangeline area, agreed with comments
made by Dave Coots. Mr. Fineberg had concerns with second story occupied space— second
story retail space will not lease—it just doesn't happen. The cost of construction is also
significantly higher and it does not generate income. Construction would have to include facilities
for the handicapped, elevators, etc. There are some requirements in the document that would
make development impossible for the vacated Ponderosa Restaurant site. Mark Fineberg
supported the idea of a Task Force and would be happy to be a part of it.
"Moll Merhoff, Carmel Chamber of Commerce said it is very important to help the property
owners be informed. Within the Chamber membership are individuals who have helped make
Carmel what it is today; their expertise and ability to sell and re -sell property means that they have
done their job well. Certainly, they have input. A Task Force can be enigmatic and very difficult.
Perhaps there might be a way to carve out a specific section for discussion, taking the talent of
those individual owners in the area affected, and coming up with ideas and alternatives.
Mike Hollibaugh stated that the City does pay attention to what is happening in other cities in
other parts of the Country, other than Carmel. The work on City Center is creating a lot of
interest in the area that is currently proposed for review. There is no doubt that a lot of the
provisions in this ordinance will be consistent with the type of development the City is suggesting.
It is different, but we are not that far out. The impetus is the City Center—it is not a bad
thing —and we are committed to making this happen.
There was a question if the second story had to be occupied or is it just the "look" the City is
after.
Mike Hollibaugh responded that whether it is "the look" or just a way of doing business, we want
to go in that direction. Maybe that is a compromise to some extent. The way the market is
today, that is where it is going and the building would be there for a very long time.
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Stephanie Blackman suggested the Committee begin going through the Ordinance itself, and then,
perhaps accept additional public input on "hot ticket" items. At the conclusion of this process, we
would need to determine if a Task Force is appropriate.
The Committee then reviewed the Document, paragraph by paragraph.
John Molitor said the City has seen the need to re -plan this area—in effect, declaring a
moratorium on development without stopping construction or expansion. The zoning will be
cleaned up and made more consistent.
Mike Hollibaugh referred to the Comprehensive Plan and said there are policies that support a
central business district today, but they are primarily for the Old Towne area. The Carmel of
today is quite a bit different than the Carmel of 5 or 10 years ago when the Comprehensive Plan
was adopted.
Stephanie Blackman commented that the Committee would continue to hash this out and work
their way through it. If it absolutely will not work, OK, but the process promotes working
through the "hot button" issues to decrease the harm to the property owners and yet promotes the
Department's interest in consistency if that is the ultimate decision. Showing us the issues from
business and property owners in the affected area is very helpful.
Going over the document, line -by- line -by -line would be most helpful and the Committee can hear
in advance what the business owners feel are issues and problems. Solutions could also be offered
at that time.
John Molitor responded that there are at least three issues that have been identified, i.e. non-
conforming use provisions; hearing officer process for more streamline review; and a sunset
provision in the entire Ordinance.
Stephanie Blackman asked that some of the language concerning "Acts of God" and examples and
concepts be incorporated into the Document.
Docket No. 04010027 OA, Proposed Chapter 23F, Range Line Road /Carmel Drive Overlay
Zone was continued to the next Committee meeting.
3. Docket No. 04020004 OA
Amend Sections 6.03.19, 6.03.24, and 6.03.25: Alley Frontage Place
The petitioner seeks to add amend sections of the Subdivision Control Ordinance
regarding.
Filed by the Department of Community Services.
Continued to the next Committee meeting.
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4. Docket No. 150 -02b OA:
Amendments to the Carmel/Clay Zoning Ordinance Patch #4
The petitioner seeks to add new provisions to and make several corrective
amendments to the Zoning Ordinance.
Filed by the Department of Community Services.
Continued to the next Committee meeting.
6. Docket No. 04020030 Z: Old Meridian /Mixed Use Rezone
The applicant seeks to Rezone 12 parcels to OM/MU- Old Meridian Mixed Use in
the Old Meridian District. The parcels are generally located on the north and
south sides of Main Street between Guilford Road and Old Meridian Street.
Filed by Carmel Department of Community Services.
The Committee was unanimous in its review and commendations for this project that will
aesthetically enhance the area and serve as a wonderful addition.
Dan Dutcher moved to recommend approval to the full Commission of Docket No. 04020030 Z,
Old Meridian/Mixed Use Rezone, seconded by Susan Westermeier and Approved 4 -0.
Note: By general consensus, the Committee determined that an additional meeting was warranted
to discuss those items not reviewed this evening. Hence, the Committee set aside Monday, April
12, 2003 at 5:30 PM to review the Range Line Road /Carmel Drive Overlay Zone, the Alley
Frontage Place Ordinance Amendment, and the Amendments to the Carmel/Clay Zoning
Ordinance Patch 94.
There being no further business to come before the Committee this evening, the meeting was
adjourned at 10:35 PM.
Stephanie Blackman, Chairperson
Ramona Hancock, Secretary
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