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CARMEL PLAN COMMISSION
SUBDIVISION COMMITTEE MINUTES
TUESDAY, NOVEMBER 29, 2007
LOCATION: CAUCUS ROOMS TIME: 6:00 P.M.
CARMEL CITY HALL
ONE CIVIC SQUARE
CARMEL, IN 46032
DOORS OPEN AT 5:30 P.M.
Representing the Committee
Rick Ripma, Chairperson
Jay Dorman
Eric Seidensticker
Carol Schleif
Sally Shapiro
Representing the Department
Angie Conn
Lisa Stewart
Of Counsel:
John Molitor
Rick Ripma, Chairman called the meeting to order at 6:00 p.m.
Mr. Ripma reviewed the Docket Items for the meeting.
The Subdivision Committee will meet to consider the following items:
1. Docket No. 07070010 PP: Trillium
The applicant seeks primary plat approval for 57 residential lots on 32.447 acres.
The site is located at 2555 W 131st St. and is zoned S -2 /Residence -ROSO.
Filed by Dennis Olmstead of Stoeppelwerth Assoc, Inc.
Steve Hardin of Baker and Daniels presented. He was accompanied by Peter Adams of Adams
and Marshall, Gordon Krietz, Jesse Pohlman and Tracy Cox.
Mr. Harden did a review of outstanding issues from the last meeting. The petitioner has spoken
with the Engineering and Planning Departments and everyone is in agreement that the project
meets the ordinances.
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Angie Conn, DOCS indicated that all issues in the Department Report have been addressed and
the City Forester has tentatively approved the landscape plan, and this afternoon the Engineering
Department has indicated that all of their issues have been resolved. The Department
recommends that this item be forwarded to the December 18 meeting of the Plan Commission
with a favorable recommendation.
Carol Schleif indicated she had continued concerns with the buffer and the quality of the buffer.
Jay Dorman stated that it appears that Scott Brewer, City Forester is comfortable with either 7
or 12 ft. trees in the buffer area.
Carol stated that one area was done satisfactory, however, some of the plants are deciduous.
Carol had requested that the entire buffer be evergreens, the same number of trees that are there,
but with no deciduous. The evergreens will stay green and effective all year. She explained that if
deciduous trees are used in the winter all you end up with is a twig. Carol stated she does want to
design it for the petitioner, but this is the way she wants the project to go.
Jay asked if the Forester has approved the plan and are we countermanding what he has approved.
Carol referred back to her drawing of what the area would like in the wintertime with deciduous
trees. She stated that the petitioner's drawings are summertime drawings, but does not accurately
depict what the area will look like in the winter. We want to shield views of people driving by or
walking by down the street. Carol stated she has spoken with Scott and he has no problem with
evergreens.
Steve Hardin stated that the petitioner is trying to follow the ordinance as written, and they feel
they have done this. He introduced Tracy Cox, landscape architect who is here to answer
questions.
Tracy Cox stated she spoke with Scott Brewer yesterday and they reviewed the ordinance which
states mixture of evergreens, deciduous and shrubs should be used, and when they are put
together you end up with a nice mix. Tracy explained with this combination get seasonal color;
you also have multiple heights, spring flowers and this gives an all season interest. Typically, if
we were to go all spruces, then you just have a wall of green. Carol stated that a wall is what she
is looking for.
Carol stated that only during the summer will you get color, etc. You have visibility from 3 ft. up.
Tracy state that the viburnum's will grow to 6 ft., Carol replied that in the winter they are just
sticks Tracy indicated that they gave great fall color and spring flowering. Carol reiterated 7
months of the year you have sticks.
Pete Adams asked if they met the ordinance. Carol stated that the ordinance does call for a mix
but in this case the petitioner was allowed to have 2 streets and for the Committee to allow this
they need to have enhanced buffering.
Steve Hardin stated the petitioner is trying to have balance throughout the year with color, etc.
Carol Schleif stated the petitioner did not follow the ordinance in regards to street placement, so
this enhanced buffering is necessary.
It was determined that Carol Schleif, Scott Brewer, Tracy Cox and Steve Hardin will meet to
resolve this issues prior to the Plan Commission meeting on December 18 Results of their
meeting will be brought the meeting.
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Rick Ripma would like to see specific garage door commitments, using the designs shown.
Pete Adams agreed he will put specific garage door options into the commitments.
Jay Dorman made a motion to approve Docket No. 07070010 PP: Trillium
With the two following conditions:
1. A meeting will held to discus the buffer yard with the intent of enhancing the amount
evergreens in that location.
2. The developer's will make commitment to use only garage doors included in the packet.
3.
Eric Seidensticker seconded the motion.
Approved 5 -0
2. Chesterton Woods Subdivision Waiver
The applicant seeks the following subdivision waiver approval:
Docket No. 07070043 SW SCO Chapter 7.05.07 percent of woodland clearing
The site is located at 2405 E 99th Street, near Haverstick Rd. and is zoned S- 2 /Residence-
ROSO III. Filed by Matt Skelton of Baker Daniels LLP for 56th Development, LLC.
Matt Skelton presented for the petitioner. He was accompanied by Mark Humphrey of 56 St.
Development.
Matt reviewed the items that were updated since the last meeting.
At the last meeting drainage issues for the whole area were discussed. Since the last Sub
Committee meeting the petitioner has met with Fred Glaser, Engineering, Lucy Snyder, City
Council and Gershman Brown, Steve Pittman. This team is planning a way to remedy the
situation drainage wise for the whole area long term. The next step is to retain an engineering
firm to study the area and come up with a plan. The petitioner is confident that a solution is on
the horizon.
In regard to the landscape plan, Matt stated this was really a tree preservation plan. The
petitioner was asked to inventory trees on this site and report back to the Committee. We did
complete an inventory. We submitted the results of the inventory to the Committee and Scott
Brewer in advance of the meeting. We have shared with Scott our commitment to have a
Registered Consulting Arborist on site when each individual home is sited, and Scott was pleased
with this; it has never been done here before. Scott agrees we have preserved as many trees as we
can with this plan. We have been able to preserve an additional percent since our last meeting.
We have doubled up our drainage easement with our pathway easements and came up with some
creative solutions, this is absolutely the last we can get from this site.
Jud Scott who will the Registered Consulting Arborist for this project is unable to attend this
evenings meeting, he has however, sent a letter indicating his approval.
Angie Conn, indicated that the City Forester does view the tree inventory as accurate, but he also
has concerns about the high percentage of tree removal and the Department feels similarly, but
regardless of that the Department feels the Committee should vote on this tonight either positive
or negative and just move on to the December 18 Plan Commission meeting.
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Jay Dorman asked the petitioner of the trees inventoried what percentage of those that are 16" or
better will not be preserved. Matt reviewed the preservation on a visual.
More may be saved as we place the homes on the sites. This will be a site by site decision.
Matt indicated that the petitioner has also agreed to off site tree mediation with the Parks Dept.
Sally Shapiro responded to questions as to what off site tree mediation is. Sally responded that
this is an opportunity for the developer to plant trees in other areas of Carmel, when they are not
able to preserve all the trees. These would be off -site i.e., Central Park.
Jay Dorman made a motion for a favorable recommendation for Docket No. 07070043 SW
SCO Chapter 7.05.07 percent of woodland clearing
With the commitment:
That the developer will employ an arborist as defined in the letter from Vine and Branch,
to review the trees when each lot is ready to built on.
Carol Schleif seconded the motion
Approved 5 -0
3. TABLED TO JANUARY 8: Docket No. 07010008 Z: 116th Guilford Rezone
The applicant seeks to rezone approximately 9.5 acres from I -1 /Industrial to R -1 /Residence. The
site is located at 1441 S. Guilford Rd. Filed by the Carmel Dept. of Community Services.
4 -6. Docket No. 07080031 PP: Wellsprings of West Clay
The applicant seeks primary plat approval for 11 lots on 14.3 acres. Also, subdivision waivers
requested are:
Docket No. 07080032 SW SCO 6.05.07 homes facing an arterial/collector road
Docket No. 07080033 SW SCO 6.03.07 cul -de -sac length
The site is located at approximately 12210 Shelborne Rd. and is zoned S -1 /Residence.
Filed by S. Kurt Menner of Lifesprings Group, LLC.
Charlie Frankenberger presented for the petitioner. He was accompanied by Kurt Menner,
Lifesprings Group, owners Tom Jones and Michael Sunstall, realtor Peggy Verdon and Gordon
Krietz of Stoeppelwerth. He gave a brief overview of the project and Committee
recommendations from the last meeting. At the last meeting Charlie had indicated that the
decorative wall would be brick, it is in fact, going to be brick. Since delivery of the brochures for
tonight's meeting the engineering plans and site grade have become more detailed and it has been
determined that we will lose some of the trees we thought we could save. Having learned this,
the petitioner met with Scott Brewer DOCS and reviewed the situation. Scott understood that
the density of this plat is so low that ROSO doesn't apply and the tree preservation of ROSO also
does not apply. The petitioner has agreed to a tree mediation plan for each of the additional 12-
14 trees that might be lost.
Other matters worked on since the last meeting:
Per the Committee's suggestion we have widened the radius of the cul -de -sac to accommodate
larger vehicles, including moving vans. We have consulted with Engineering and we will
implement their suggestions about replacing some of the pavement with stamped concrete.
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The petitioner shared drawings showing the revised cul -de -sac and the replacement of the
pavement with stamped concrete. This will be a traffic calming device.
Charlie then directed the committee to review the rendering of the right -of -way west of the cul-
de -sac which extends to the end of the property this is not going to be extended. The reason for
this is we do not know when or if this land will be developed. We will agree to record a document
with the Hamilton County Recorder advising them that this may connect in the future and the
right of way is dedicated, this will be on the home owners plat.
The petitioner has also included a drawing of the pond showing a gradual slope and the 10 ft.
safety ledge. The pond complies in all respects with all requirements.
Finally, the architectural commitments have been revised to prohibit front loading garages..
Angie Conn, within the last few hours she has spoken with the City Forester and the city
engineering department. The Engineering Department indicates all of their issues have been
resolved. The City Forester has provided tentative approval of the tree preservation plan.
Carol Schleif made a motion to send to the full Plan Commission with a favorable
recommendation
Docket No. 07080031 PP: Wellsprings of West Clay
Docket No. 07080032 SW SCO 6.05.07 homes facing an arterial/collector road
Docket No. 07080033 SW SCO 6.03.07 cul -de -sac length
Jay Dorman seconded the motion
Approved 5 -0
7 -10. Docket No. 07080036 PP: Rosado Hill
The applicant seeks primary plat approval for 3 lots on 9.05 acres. Also, subdivision waivers
requested are:
Docket No. 07080038 SW SCO 6.05.01 all lots shall abut a public right of way
Docket No. 07080039 SW SCO 6.05.07 6.03.19 homes must face a parkway /arterial road
Docket No. 07080040 SW SCO 8.09.02 installation of paths /sidewalks
The site is located at the southeast corner of 106th St. Spring Mill Rd. and is zoned S-
2 /Residence. Filed by Joseph Scimia of Baker Daniels, LLP.
Joseph Scimia presented for the petitioners. Since the last meeting the issues that were open for
discussion were final approval for tree preservation by the City Forester, we have submitted a
revised tree preservation plan that contains descriptions as well as graphic displays of it. Angie
has received an email today from the Forester indicating his approve. The other issue was how
we were going to handle the sidewalk situation and the petitioners have withdrawn their request
for waivers on the sidewalk standards. After going through the process and meeting with the
county engineer we have decided it will be best to just go and put them in, but based upon the
configuration, we have identified a location to put them. At this time all issues have been
resolved.
Angie Conn, City forester has accepted their new tree preservation plan, one minor thing, a tree
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that was to be preserved. The Department recommends that this be sent to the December 18
Plan Commission meeting with a positive recommendation.
Jay Dorman made motion to approve the following docket numbers including the withdrawal of
Docket No. 07080040 SW SCO 8.09.02 per request of the petitioner.
Docket No. 07080036 PP: Rosado Hill
Docket No. 07080038 SW SCO 6.05.01 all lots shall abut a public right of way
Docket No. 07080039 SW SCO 6.05.07 6.03.19 homes must face a parkway /arterial road
Eric Seidensticker seconded the motion
Approved 5 -0
11. Docket No. 07070059 DP /ADLS: 531 S Guilford Rd Kousa Street Cottages)
The applicant seeks site plan and design approval for 33 single family homes on 6 acres.
The site is located at 531 S Guilford Rd. and is zoned B -7 /Business.
Filed by Justin Moffett of Uptown Partners, LLC.
12 -15. Docket No. 07080024 PP: Kousa Street Cottages (531 S Guilford Rd)
The applicant seeks primary plat approval for 33 lots on 6 acres. Also, subdivision waivers
requested are:
Docket No. 07080025 SW SCO 8.09.01 sidewalks on both sides of street
Docket No. 07080026 SW SCO 6.03.20 private streets
Docket No. 07080027 SW SCO 6.05.01 minimum lot width of 50 -ft at R/W
The site is located at 531 S Guilford Rd. and is zoned B -7 /Business.
Filed by Jim Shinaver of Nelson Frankenberger for Uptown Partners, LLC.
File: SUB 2007- 1129.doc
Jim Shinaver presented for the petitioner. He was accompanied by Justin Moffat and John Helton of
Uptown Partners and Jim Shields of Weihe Engineering.
New visuals of plans were distributed by Justin while Jim gave his presentation. These refer to items
that were on the Department Report and others areas that have slightly tweaked since the packets were
distributed, they include new elevations.
Jim began a review of the Department Report
This site was rezoned in the 1980's from a residential classification to a business classification for
a church office use. The petitioner seeks primary plat, development plan, and site design approval
for a residential development of 40 units on 6.08 acres (formerly 33 units). However, the
petitioner has proposed the idea of preparing a Horizontal Property Regime (HPR) application for
condominium units, instead of a primary plat. The HPR application only involves administrative
review /approval. This is a density of 6.6 units per acre. The buildings will be duplexes and
triples, rather than the initially proposed single family homes.
The homes along Guilford Ave will face that street and have garage alley access. Most of the
wooded area will be preserved, and the detention area will be natural in shape and landscaping.
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The site is surrounded by single family homes and town homes, as well as a school. The
petitioners have been urged to commit to the Draft Residential Architectural Design Guidelines,
or make some architectural design commitments of their own. The individual units within the
buildings have been staggered to `breakup' the view and provide for variation. Please see the
petitioner's informational packet for more detail.
Five —foot wide walks are provided throughout the development, which will connect to the path
along Guilford Rd.
The following issues were discussed:
1. Scott Brewer, City Forester will need time to re- review the altered landscape plan, which
he just received on 11/14/2007. It is better and on the right track to approval.
The petitioner received an email from Scott today, he is still working with our landscape
architect on the tree species issue and this will be resolved. Another concern that Scott
had was the removal of the southern sidewalk and his final item related to the eastern
property line he would like to see more planting there or a vegetation Swale. As part of
the site layout there will be a drainage swale along that eastern property line and the
landscape architect will continue to work with Scott Brewer.
2. The petitioner has received a response from Gary Duncan today where he has set forth
items he would like us to address. My impression was a lot of the elements are parts that
would be finalized as you go through the construction phase of a project and so it is our
intent to continue to work with Engineering on these issues.
3. The petitioner has agreed to make a contribution to the Non Reverting Thoroughfare
Fund in lieu of installing sidewalks at this time.
4. Lighting /Photometric Plan: Please show the foot candle measurements at the property
lines of the development. Try to keep the measurement at or below 0.3 foot candles.
A visual was distributed. This does meet the requirement of the ordinance.
5. Please provide color building elevations (all 4 sides) with materials and dimensions
labeled.
These were distributed.
6. Copies of full size (24" x 36 revised plans, landscape plan, and elevations are requested.
These have been submitted to Engineering
7. DOCS and the Engineering Dept will need a final copy of the drainage calculations.
Those have been submitted to Engineering by Jim Shields.
8. DOCS urges the petitioner to use green/sustainable development practices, such as
pervious pavers or green building techniques.
Justin stated that he has a builder partner; they have reviewed a list of possible
LEED items that may be feasible on this project. The entire wetland area will be saved
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and used and a natural drainage area. Scott Brewer is working with the landscaper for
Uptown Partners on correct species.
In the area of construction they will initial a recycling program. Another objective is to
use 50% of certifiable, sustainable wood, use low "E" solvents and adhesives. Use
recycled content decorative roof accents, use formaldehyde free insulation, use fiber
cement siding. Specific to mechanicals, alternative ventilation methods for circulation of
outdoor air will be used. One standard which is important is the HVAC system will meet
the standard Thermal Comfort Conditions for Human Occupancy, on demand water
heating systems, low flow appliances, and regarding finish materials, recycled carpet,
sustainable harvested wood flooring, low voc paints and formaldehyde free cabinetry.
9. Per the Alternative Transportation Plan (ATP), a 10 -ft wide multiuse asphalt path is
required along Guilford Rd (not a 5 -ft wide sidewalk).
10. The Department suggests moving the southernmost sidewalk location to be adjacent to the
southernmost private drive, instead of traversing through the natural area.
This has been removed from the plan, due to conversations with Angie and Scott Brewer.
11. Show /label the bike parking area on site plan, Sheet C001; 7 bike racks are required (14
spaces).
Bike parking has been labeled.
12. Please show the mechanical equipment locations and how they are screened from view.
This is on 2n page of base landscape plan.
Sally asked about the ones that have driveways on both sides. Justin indicated it would
still be hidden by shrubbery in the middle and side to side.
13. The driveway on unit 40 seems a bit narrow; can a vehicle maneuver easily in/out?
This was addressed in the first Plan Commission meeting. On lot 40, the answer to the
question is that the tree canopy goes over the actual concrete area, so there is sufficient
room
14. Please address garbage truck turnaround within the site.
Attached to the 2n page of the black and white site plan. We have provided the plan to
show how this will function.
15. DOCS is still reviewing the petitioner's Nov. 20 response letter.
The following comments were made at the Nov. 20 Plan Commission meeting:
1. One resident stated he was in support of the plan, with the condition that the petitioner
implement the plantings on his side of the property line and build the fence prior to the
buildings' construction, as they discussed in prior meetings.
The commitment made to surrounding neighbors is still in effect, to provide them with
some plantings on their side of the property, and build a fence prior to construction
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2. Make the facades facing Guilford Rd have more detail, such as adding a porch.
Facades along Guilford with more detail and that ahs been provided in the new elevation
drawing set.
3. Bring 3 -4 options of garage doors to the committee, and commit to choosing from those
options.
Justin has provided renderings of garage door options on the last page of the elevation set,
if this meets the Committee approval a commitment will be made on these.
4. Add additional landscaping on Unit 10, since its side faces Guilford Rd.
The petitioner explained better is that if you look at the overall landscape plan for unit 10
there are plantings that are proposed as part of the perimeter plantings proposal, but then
on top of that you would then also have what is on the base planting requirements. If you
would like us to incorporate a few more plantings along the western edge, we are open to
that.
Angie Conn, stated that Scott Brewer, City Forester would like to see more trees along the east buffer
or a vegetative swale, but other than that he is comfortable. The Department does recommend that
this Committee forward this on to the full Plan Commission.
Discussion was held on the time of the Guilford Rd. street project. Angie indicate it likely to be started
in the couple of years.
The Committee also requested to know what type of fence will be on the ease side of the property
Justin indicated in the landscape plan there is a commitment that was agreed to at the BZA level fence
built to Carmel standard of one brick column every 24 ft. with wood fence between them.
Jay Dorman then asked how the project grew from 32 units to 40 units.
Justin answered that the site is zoned B7 and there is a calculation used on sq. footage of the site to
determine density allowed. Our understanding is that we are here in an ADLS/DP process looking at
overall architecture and site design, but density is determined by the underlying zoning, and the
underlying zoning indicates we can put 52 units on the site. When we came with the cottage product
up front at the BZA level we felt we could go with a lower density, when we responded to staff
comment of making them front load garages to increase buffering in the rear, the 30 ft. cottage just did
not fly, so making an attached project make more sense. Since we cannot sell the attached units at the
same price as a single cottage we had to increase the density. It is a B7 zoning, it is commercial we
could put an assisted living project here on this site. We are trying to do something that is less
impactful than what we are allowed to but it is what it is.
Jay asked Angie for clarification on the density. She indicated that it is a unique site that happens to be
zoned B7. It does work to their advantage.
Jay suggested that the Committee communicate something back to the BZA regarding explanation of
the change of density. Angie indicated that we could prepare a memo in the department report portion
of the meeting and give them an update for the BZA.
Carol Schleif asked about Horizontal Property Regime. That she could not find it in the zoning
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ordinances.
Angie replied that this HPR is primarily a state statute regulation.
Justin went on to explain HPR that this is simply the way the land is zoned. We could do fee simple
where we divide up each unit has its parcel and the parcel ends at the wall of the unit or we can have an
HOA own the whole site which becomes a HPR they have easement to their unit, they are responsible
for the maintenance within the unit, but it operates like a condo association and the association
maintains the entire exterior of the unit and the landscape and the street infrastructure, etc. It is the
ownership of the land.
Jim Shinaver continued the explanation that under state law you are permitted a multi family project
like this to present as a HPR and State law has requirements that you need to meet and the way the city
ordinances adopt that state ordinance is that you have to submit plans through the planning
department for an administrative review and the Department of Engineering your HPR documents
which would consist of how you set up the HPR and also the covenants that govern the maintenance of
the property and real estate and if you meet the state requirements and the internal DOE requirements
then you are issued you building permits. It is similar to a plat process, however, in this type of project
you will own your unit along with 1140' interest in the overall development. By virtue of that type of
ownership and the covenants that govern the neighborhood, it requires each owner to submit into the
HOA fund an appropriate amount to take care of the maintenance issues on the exteriors of the
structures, lawn maintenance, irrigation systems, etc.
Justin replied that during staff review process they confirm that we comply with the density allowed
within the development with the setbacks, etc. and staff has indicated we comply.
John Molitor stated that when you have condos you are not subject to the Subdivision Control
Ordinance, you still have to comply with zoning.
Jay indicated he will share the commitments that are used in his development. One of the problems
that his development ran into and you may want to keep in mind is the placement of satellite dishes,
you may want to limit those, that you put them only on the rear of the house and if that is not possible
do not allow them.
Also, since you have limited parking you should confine parking to just overnight. Lot 10, if there is a
privacy fence that the homeowner wants to put in, you should regulate the style of fence.
Rick Ripma asked about regulations on private streets. Previously these had been troublesome, why is
this one not? Angie replied that it has to do with the HPR and the Subdivision Control Ordinance
does not come into play with this type of project. She did emphasize that they still have build the
streets to city standards.
Justin clarified that it is not dimensional standards, it is construction standards.
Rick asked that since the streets are not at City width standard what will happen if the HOA comes to
us and asked the City to take the streets, would we take them or not because they are to narrow.
Angie stated that is why the Engineering Dept. is reviewing this now with the ADLS and the petitioner
is working this out with the Engineering Dept.
Rick asked when that will be done. Angie replied it is an ongoing review with this application. It goes
with the construction documents that they have to get approved regardless of Plan Commission's
approval.
A lengthy discussion was held relative to the project coming under the HPR Horizontal Property
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Regime jurisdiction. Some members of the Committee were not comfortable with this; however, Jim
Shinaver stated that this absolutely follows the letter of the law.
Discussion turned to the length of driveways after discussion it was decided to increase driveway
length to 21' at each unit.
Carol Schleif brought up the need for natural light, particularly in the middle units and indicated this
would be a great spot for skylights or tube lights 1 10" tube light will light up a 10 x 10 room. Justin
will meet with Carol to further discuss.
Garage doors were discussed. Carol wants doors with windows Justin will commit to this.
Jay Dorman made a motion to approve
Docket No. 07070059 DP /ADLS: 531 S Guilford Rd Kousa Street Cottages)
Docket No. 07080024 PP: Kousa Street Cottages (531 S Guilford Rd)
The following are not longer required:
Docket No. 07080025 SW SCO 8.09.01 sidewalks on both sides of street
Docket No. 07080026 SW SCO 6.03.20 private streets
Docket No. 07080027 SW SCO 6.05.01 minimum lot width of 50 -ft at R/W
With the following conditions:
The stipulation that five of the six garage doors will have windows, satellite dishes will be placed so
they are not fronting a public street or someone else's line of sight within the community, guest parking
should be overnight only not extended stay
Sally Shapiro seconded the motion.
Approved 5 -0
Rick Ripma, Chairperson Lisa Stewart
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