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Home My WebLink AboutMinutes SpecStdy 06-28-07of CA �VNONE y�A C i t y RTOMORROW o /NDIMAN CARMEL PLAN COMMISSION SPECIAL STUDIES COMMITTEE THURSDAY, JUNE 28 2007 Minutes The Special Studies Committee of the Carmel Plan Commission met in the Caucus Rooms of City Hall at 6:00 p.m., June 28, 2007. The June 28 meeting was in lieu of the July 3r meeting. Members present: Kevin Heber, Steve Stromquist, Madeline Torres, thereby establishing a quorum. DOCS Staff present: Christine Barton Holmes and Rachel Boone. John Molitor, Legal Counsel was also in attendance. Carol Schleif, Subdivision Committee was invited into the meeting for comments and discussion. Christine Holmes announced that the Holiday Inn item was tabled; Christine suggested combining items 11 and 12, Justus Business Park, and hearing them together. The Committee concurred. The Special Studies Committee considered the following items: 1. Docket No. 07030006 ADLS Amend: Red Robin Clay Terrace The applicant seeks approval for the construction of a free standing, 6,350- square foot restaurant with outdoor seating at Clay Terrace. The site is located at the southeast corner of 146 Street and Clay Terrace Boulevard, and is zoned PUD. Filed by John Finnemore of Red Robin, Inc. John Finnemore, Senior Property Manger for Red Robin presented for the petitioner. Mr. Finnemore distributed several handouts to the Committee, only change to site plan is connection to the bike path. Mr. Finnemore brought with him a material board and samples. John Finnemore recapped what has been done to this building over time. First, changes made were for staff and our landlords, we changed the tan EFIS to tan brick, we added the patio, we double crowned the cornices and we raised the height of the entry feature. As we evolved into the Special Studies committee meetings, we moved the patio from the Clay Terrace Blvd. side of the building to the rear of the building and we also doubled it size, we slid the building closer to the existing buildings that are in line on the frontage of Clay Terrace, and in the process of doing that we lost some parking spots, we also added the connection of the side walk off of Clay Terrace around the side of our building to the front and also will connect up to the path which is the lower path could not put path up to 146 due to the grade could not make any ADA requirements. Also, we moved the patio around the back, the rail is visible, there will be faux windows because that will look into our kitchen areas, but will appear to be a window from the outside. As you are S:/P1anCommission /Minutes /Committees /SpecStudies /2007 /SS -2007 june28 1 ONE CIVIC SQUARE CARMEL, INDIANA 46032 317/571 -2417 going north on Clay Terrace until you are right up to the alleyway you would not be able to see this, but it gives a bit more detail to the rear of the building. On the east side of the building facing the parking lot, previously we had two smaller windows we have made it a larger window all the crowning is to be a three tiered stacked effect, we also added on top of the service area and up on the marquee we went from single to double to triple. On the side you saw the exposed ladder to the roof, we have we took it internal as we did on Michigan Rd. We also recessed the sign. We only have approval for the two road frontage signs, so the current rendering showing the sign in the back in incorrect. This covers all the changes. Christine Barton Holmes -DOGS, staff appreciates the changes made to the elevation and the material changes, but we still have an outstanding concern with the site design and the orientation of the building to 146 street. We would still prefer to see the building have a dual frontage and have available access from the south facade or full front on the south facade and maybe have the artificial glass, etc. on the north facade which would give the visibility, but would also give the access. A couple of other issues are, the PUD for the entire Clay Terrace development states that building should be designed to be one and half stories or designed to appear that way. Most of the buildings have really tall cornice lines, very tall ceilings and not really seeing that in the plans yet. The engineering department has not really been able to review this yet, so they are not able to tender support for the project yet. Steve Stromquist indicated he had heard this project had been rejected by the BZA due to square footage. John Finnemore explained how the process had worked in this regard. The way the PUD is written everything is supposed to be in line and connected and if it is not it needs to be 15,000 sq. ft. other than one restaurant. The one restaurant is Kincaid's. So what we were originally directed to do by staff since we were not connected directly on Clay Terrace, so they said our best bet was to go through the BZA process and request a variance and we decided to word it as a second 7500 sq. ft. free standing restaurant similar to what Kincaid's is, and that is where we were rejected. Subsequently landlord had meetings with staff and they determined that we were in fact a continuation of the street frontage of Clay Terrace and we would no longer need any type of variance to be smaller than 15,000 sq. ft. We were back to what was supposed to be a staff level of approval and then they decided at staff level to send us to Special Studies Committee. Madeleine Torres— questioned if this was this site an out lot on the original PUD? Christine Barton Holmes, DOCS: This was originally considered to be more of an out lot, but they had envisioned having a larger retail building the idea of a bookstore was discussed. Christine indicated she believed it has been a out lot in all the renderings. Madeleine Torres if I remember the BZA correctly since I sit on that Committee, we felt it was not in the spirit of the PUD to have such a small building in such a prominent location. You are right on 146 street. We would not to lose anything by allowing something that does not go with the rest of the architecture in that area. You have done a great job with your materials, I just don't know if that is the right slot for you. S:/P1anCommission /Minutes /Committees /SpecStudies /2007 /SS -2007 june28 2 ONE CIVIC SQUARE CARMEL, INDIANA 46032 317/571 -2417 John Finnemore's response: As you can see from our site plan, once you put a 6,000 sq. ft. building there is not much site, I don't know the original intent, but it is not clear that a 15,000 sq. ft. building would fit on the site. Carol Schlief, the plan shows that it would be a larger building, and it was fully built out so there was no parking there. John Finnemore if you look at that dimension and you double it, you are into the hill. Carol Schlief These are from the original PUD —some of the intent of the architecture —and it wasn't part of the original PUD, so I did some research and ADLS petitions subsequently would have to show that is was appropriate to the rest of the development. As an architect, I would say if this was over at Lowe's or by Wal -Mart or another shopping center would I look at this building and think it looks like Clay Terrace? I don't think I would ever think that. Then I looked at minutes of the original PUD the architecture was paramount to what was going on here. The verticality that you see in the other buildings, I don't see in this. The exact wording was rather succinct The other question is, have you had an architect look at this particular project? John Finnemore Alex, who was with me last time is an architect and has reviewed it. Carol Schlief is he registered? John Finnemore not in Colorado, but in Illinois. Carol Schlief we had a couple of meetings with architects and landscape architect looking at the site, we shared that we see very little of our suggestions as having been implemented and there are very fundamental site principals not being met, i.e., having the garbage in trash receptacles in such a prominent location. John Finnemore where would you put them so they were not prominent? Carol Schlief I would put them up here (shown on visual) I would flip your building. Everything we had on the list is very fundamental to the first thing before you site a building i.e. bringing people in, in this case need to come in from Clay terrace, There is not another establishment that comes in from 146 street except the grocery story which is set way back. John Finnemore if you review the design manuals that Simon and Lauth put together, the concept of Clay Terrace was to show the evolution of architecture through the mid 19 through the early 20 century. So you have inline streetscape things and we looked at our building which is more of an art deco type design which was the early 20 century architecture, the last building that came in, just as now it is the last building coming into Clay Terrace. The smaller diner out of in front of the inline streetscape as well as the larger boxes behind it. Carol Schlief that was not in the PUD S:/P1anCommission /Minutes /Committees /SpecStudies /2007 /SS -2007 june28 3 ONE CIVIC SQUARE CARMEL, INDIANA 46032 317/571 -2417 John Finnemore well it was in their design concepts which is what the PUD is supposed to capture. Carol Schlief: Strict standards to style and relationship which must be maintained between the buildings —that is what the Council approved. I look at what is there and it does not go. I am also concerned that in the PUD it has minimum building heights of 18ft or appearance of a story and half. I do not see any windows or dormers that would indicate a half story. John Finnemore we are top of the 20 feet (showed on visual.) Carol Schlief but it states 16 ft. to the lowest eaves. John indicated that Red Robin had met all of the numbers that Carol just reviewed. Discussion revolved around height of eaves, roofs, etc. Carol Schlief indicated that they were getting too picky, but the main thing is that the style does not go with the rest of the PUD and that is critical. They took nine months to come up with this PUD that was one of the major issues. Refuse is supposed to be completely within the principal or accessory building and it's not. John replied it is connected to the principal building. Carol Schleif responded that it does not meet the PUD, most of them have them inside, but really it is the site and the architecture. Discussion ensued regarding the 15,000 sq. ft. requirement. John indicated that Red Robin does not have any 15,000 sq. ft. restaurants, and he noted that the current restaurants do not have 15,000 sq. ft. either. Carol said that there are 7,500 square -foot restaurants; John Finnemore responded that there is only one and Red Robin would have to get a variance, since Kincaid's has the only 7,500 square -foot restaurant. Carol questioned why this was being discussed, if only one restaurant is allowed. John Finnemore. responded that it was determined through meetings with Lauth's attorneys and the City staff, that we only had to be 15,000 square feet if you were free standing and not an integral part of the streetscape of Clay Terrace and it was determined that we were an integral part of the streetscape of Clay Terrace. Steve Stromquist when did that happen? John Finnemore responded that it was between being denied the variance at the BZA and resubmitting earlier this year. Madeleine Torres asked if there were DOCS staff at that meeting; John Finnemore responded that he was not present, however Lauth's attorney and staff were present and he expected that Mike Hollibaugh, Director of DOCS attended the meeting. S:/P1anCommission /Minutes /Committees /SpecStudies /2007 /SS -2007 june28 4 ONE CIVIC SQUARE CARMEL, INDIANA 46032 317/571 -2417 Madeleine so they interpreted the PUD? John Finnermore explained that when they first met Christine Holmes was present—we debated for some time whether or not we were an integral part of the streetscape and it was not a real firm decision. Matt Griffin indicated that it would be better to come in for a variance for the size. We didn't see that as a big problem, so that is what we did. Just by making the application, we were saying we were not part of the streetscape. After we were denied by BZA, Lauth met with Mike Hollibaugh —they said they could determine whether or not we are integral to the streetscape. Madeleine Torres said she agreed with John's comments and indicated to Carol Schleif that Red Robin is a stand alone building. Discussion revolved around the controversy of this being a stand alone building. Carol indicated that she does not think Red Robin fits in at Clay Terrace, but would like to see them in another location. John Finnemore said that all site issues are very solvable Steve Stromquist said it appears that this project needs the approval of this committee and asked for Counsel's opinion. John Molitor, Legal Counsel responded that it is important to get a resolution on whether this is a stand -alone building or one that is in the streetscape. Steve Stromquist commented that there are many issues here and indicated to John Finnemore that if an up or down vote is taken, it will kill the project John Finnemore responded that it appears to him that if he wants to return, he will have to be part of a larger building with multiple tenants facing Clay Terrace. Carol Schlei£ We have given you all kind of suggestions and ways to make it work and you have not done it. John Finnemore asked that a vote be taken. John Molitor recommended that the Committee defer the vote until the issue has been resolved. John Finnemore responded that he didn't see any way past this committee. There are too many concerns. Steve Stromquist said he would like to speak with representatives of Simon and Lauth to see what their intent was. S:/P1anCommission /Minutes /Committees /SpecStudies /2007 /SS -2007 june28 5 ONE CIVIC SQUARE CARMEL, INDIANA 46032 317/571 -2417 Madeleine stated she would hate to see the project thrown away, it is a process and, the Committee and staff have given you some observations, if you take this vote it says you do want to meet our recommendation. John Finnemore I do not see how this can be met Carol asked if Red Robin is willing to put some design time into the project and indicated that it is frustrating that you have been asked 3 or 4 times to get windows and it does not happen. John Finnemore we have tried to accommodate, we have added windows, we have recessed signs, raised the heights of marquees, and increased the crown. We are trying to bring a Red Robin to Clay Terrace, we are trying to make it blend as much as possible, but it is still a Red Robin. The Committee agreed to table this item until the intent can be clarified with Simon and Lauth. The petitioner will return to Special Studies Committee on August 7, 2007. 2. Docket No. 07050011 ADLS Amend: Auto Outfitters Signage The applicant seeks approval for 1 new tenant wall sign, a monument sign face change and a new awnings with a sign. The site is located at 10560 N. Michigan Rd. and is zoned I -1 /Industrial. Filed by Jerry Knoop of Auto Outfitters. Jerry Knoop, an owner of Auto Outfitters presented. We were previously here to discuss the awning. It seemed that the color scheme was the most problematic. It was red and the building was primarily yellow. A visual was shown indicating the color is off white base neutral, and indicating the color scheme that we are trying to do. So it would be red with a creamy white background. The visual was passed through the Committee. This is color requested because it matches the colors used in on the petitioners other location. Dept. comments, Rachel Boone: At the last meeting we discussed vinyl vs. canvas awning and we came to the conclusion that vinyl would be acceptable in this setting. Christine Barton Holmes stated the Department's concern—that all the colors come from the same color family—we don't want the colors to clash. The Committee reviewed the visuals presented by the petitioner regarding color. Steve Stromquist: "How long is the awning Jerry Knoop's response: "It is 40 feet —the length of the facade is 55 feet. Carol Schleif asked if the sign could be on the building vs. the awning and that with the colors red and yellow —the brightest sign colors—it would be eye popping. Not sure you need to spend money on an awnmg. S:/P1anCommission /Minutes /Committees /SpecStudies /2007 /SS -2007 june28 6 ONE CIVIC SQUARE CARMEL, INDIANA 46032 317/571 -2417 Madeleine Torres made formal motion to approve Docket No. 07050011 ADLS Amend: Auto Outfitters Signage with the understanding that a vinyl awning is acceptable, that the second sign will have individual non illuminated letters, and the color scheme present is acceptable. The motion was seconded by Kevin Heber, Approved 3 -0. 3. Docket No. 07050031 ADLS Amend: Web Tech One Signage The applicant seeks approval for 1 new ground sign. The site is located at 751 N. Range line Rd. and is zoned B -5 /Business. Filed by Lisa Pleasant. Lisa Pleasant, part -owner of Web Tech presented. We are custom software company. The sign that we have designed will complement the area. We have a black lamppost directly in front of our building so we have gone with black and gray colors; the blues and greens go with the tree line. The sign is being created by the same company that does Bub's signs so it will constructed out of the same material and will look similar. Dept Comments, Rachel Boone: The applicant meets all the requirements of the Sign Ordinance. The sign will be 19 square feet-20 square feet is allowed. The base of the sign will be landscaped, the petitioner went through great detail in picking out plant species. The sign will be 5.2 in height and will not be illuminated; the Department is recommending positive consideration. The Committee members were unanimous —they liked the sign being presented. Madeleine Torres moved to approve Docket No. 07050031 ADLS Amend: Web Tech One Signage. The motion was seconded by Kevin Heber, Approved 3 -0. 4. Docket No. 07060001 ADLS Amend: Red Robyn Realty Signage The applicant seeks approval for 1 new ground sign. The site is located at 430 N. Range line Rd. and is zoned B -5. Filed by Robyn Brown of Red Robyn Realty. Robyn Brown, owner of Red Robyn Realty was present on behalf of the applicant. The petitioner would like to place a sign at this location to signify the tenant in the front building and the two businesses that are housed in the back of the building that are not on Range Line Road. Ms. Brown reviewed the sign on a visual; Ms. Brown is trying to keep the Old Towne feel— keeping the sign simple just to identify the business. Dept. Comments, Rachel Boone: The sign will be 6 feet tall, a total of nine square feet, and complies with the Sign Ordinance. The sign will be illuminated with two shielded lights that will only shine on the sign. The sign will be landscaped and the petitioner has a nice landscaping detail. The Department recommends positive consideration of the sign. Madeleine asked about the numbers of lighted or unlighted signs and does this give an unfair advantage—to approve some illuminated and some not. Rachel Boone indicated that all businesses may have illuminated lights, however, some choose not to. S: /P1anCommission /Minutes /Committees /SpecStudies /2007 /SS -2007 june28 7 ONE CIVIC SQUARE CARMEL, INDIANA 46032 317/571 -2417 Steve Stromquist asked what materials were used in the sign. Robyn Brown responded that the signs are made of vinyl, and they will be stationary. Madeleine Torres made formal motion to approve Docket No. 07060001 ADLS, Red Robyn Realty Signage. The motion was seconded by Kevin Heber and Approved 3 -0. 5. Docket No. 07060002 ADLS Amend: Camp Bow Wow The applicant seeks approval for 2 wall signs, fencing, and an outdoor play area. The site is located at 489 Gradle Dr. and is zoned I -1 /Industrial. Filed by Steven Alexander. Steven Alexander, owner of the Camp Bow Wow franchise appeared before the Committee. Camp Bow Wow is a premium dog day care and boarding facility. The petitioner would like to open a business at 489 Gradle Drive and is applying for approval of one sign. Mr. Alexander indicated that an error had been made and the application looked like he was asking for two signs, but he needs only one. Approval is being requested for approval of the wall sign. The landlord is allowing Mr. Alexander to have half of this sign. Camp Bow Wow is seeking approval for the wall sign. Camp Bow Wow is also seeking approval for fencing of the outdoor play area. Mr. Alexander brought a couple of examples of signs; he did neglect to mention the awning. Mr. Alexander is also requesting approval of a 20 foot awning above the door. Although the awning shows signage, this would require a variance, so there will be no lettering. Option 1 is a panel sign which is 34 square feet; this is a base sign used by other franchises in other parts of the country. Option 2 would be channel letters with a smaller version of the logo. Both signs are illuminated. The front of the building will be landscaped. Mr. Alexander indicated that he will need an 8 -foot fence to keep the campers in. Christine Barton Holmes commented that there are a couple of outstanding issues. The Dept. would always prefer to see channel letters rather than a panel sign—it has a more permanent look and is a little easier to read from a distance. Christine asked what type of material will be used for the fence. Steve Alexander responded that the fence will be galvanized steel with vertical, vinyl slats. Mr. Alexander provided a visual example of the fence. Dept., Rachel Boone: The issue with the signage is that this building is set back, their frontage is very minim and the driveway is about all they have for a sign. The sign that the landlord is giving him permission for is not that easy. The sign ordinance states that the multi- tenant buildings which have signs must include all tenants. Currently, there are no tenants listed on the sign, just the name of the buildings. Mr. Alexander is allowed a small directional sign —three square feet is exempt. S:/P1anCommission /Minutes /Committees /SpecStudies /2007 /SS -2007 june28 ONE CIVIC SQUARE CARMEL, INDIANA 46032 317/571 -2417 Mr. Alexander indicated that he can get by with a small directional sign for now and then request a variance at a later date. Christine Barton -Homes reviewed the ordinance on fences and indicated that there no restrictions on the type of fencing material, but there are restrictions on where the fence can be placed. Mr. Alexander submitted some original drawings —the fence is 1800 square feet on the south side of the building and extends 25 off the south side; the closest it comes to the property line is four (4) feet. Madeleine Torres summarized that the petitioner is asking for one wall sign, (the Department prefers channel letters) one directional ground sign (no approval needed) and adding the awning. Madeleine Torres made a motion to approve Docket No. 07060002 ADLS Amend: Camp Bow Wow. The motion was seconded by Kevin Heber, Approved 3 -0. 6. Docket No. 07060014 ADLS Amend: Zotec Signage The applicant seeks approval for 2 new wall signs. The site is located at 11460 N. Meridian and is zoned B -6. Filed by Doug Staley, Sr. of Staley Signs, Inc. Doug Staley of Staley Signs appeared before the Committee on behalf of the petitioner. A replacement wall sign is being requested for the existing sign on the east elevation. The sign will have individual channel letters, with dual vinyl application that allows the letters to look ivory during the day and blue and green at night. We are also requesting a new sign for the north elevation that faces connecting roads. Mr. Staley brought in examples of the sign type which he demonstrated to the Committee. The letters will be very visible during daylight hours in ivory and they will stand out in blue and green at night. Rachel Boone noted that the building is glass, and the blue and green would blend into the building during the day if we were to do this as usual. The Department feels that the swapping of the white letters and color letters in this instance would be acceptable because of how the building is set back from the road and the building material. The sizes all match the sign ordinance. The petitioner will be adding a new sign to the north and this is acceptable to the Department. The Department recommends positive recommendation. Madeleine Torres questioned whether or not this was considered a thoroughfare area, since the building was set back quite a distance from 116 Street. Rachel Boone responded that after conversations with Mike Hollibaugh, DOCS Director, this is an appropriate request. Madeleine Torres moved to approve Docket No. 07060014 ADLS Amend: Zotec Signage, seconded by Kevin Heber, Approved 3 -0. S:/P1anCommission /Minutes /Committees /SpecStudies /2007 /SS- 2007- june28 9 ONE CIVIC SQUARE CARMEL, INDIANA 46032 317/571 -2417 7. Docket No. 07060015 ADLS Amend: Ferguson Kitchen and Bath Signage The applicant seeks approval for I new wall sign. The site is located at 831 S. Range line Rd. and is zoned B -7. Filed by Jessica Young of ISF Sign Specialists. Mark Keene, ISF Signs appeared before the Committee on behalf of the applicant. The petitioner is requesting approval for one new wall sign. The tenant has two store fronts, the building is set for four tenants —there are two additional tenants to the south. Ferguson Kitchen and Bath has two tenant spaces, but according to staff is only allowed one sign, 35 square feet. The petitioner requested clarification. Rachel Boone explained that the whole building is 100 feet wide; each tenant has 50 feet, the paint store and Ferguson. Based on the ordinance, they are each allowed a 35 square -foot sign. The petitioner states that they now fit the sign criteria and displayed the logo, neon lit, that conforms within the Ordinance. Rachel Boone said she had worked very hard with the petitioner in trying to get their sign to fit the ordinance requirements. The petitioner is now proposing a sign that fits the ordinance and looks very nice, utilizing what they have and what they need to do. At this time, the Department is recommending positive consideration for this sign. Madeleine Torres moved to approve Docket No. 07060015 ADLS Amend: Ferguson Kitchen and Bath Signage. The motion was seconded by Kevin Heber and Approved 3 -0. 8. Docket No. 07060020 ADLS Amend: Orchard Park Subdivision Signage The applicant seeks approval for 3 new entrance signs. The sites are located at 1401 E 106 St., 1525 E 106 St. and 10406 Westfield Blvd. It is zoned S -2. Filed by Lori Strong of Orchard Park Civic Association. Lori Strong, representative of Orchard Park Civic Association presented. We are seeking approval for 3 new entrance signs in our neighborhood. Each sign will be 3/ 6 ft. 18 sq. ft. the height of the sign will be 5 ft. Sign entrance is approximately 22 -27 ft. from the street. The materials will be rough sawn cedar. The colors will be dark green with gold leaf lettering with the actual letters being recessed into the sign. There were some concerns from Rachel regarding the wording "Private Property" on the sign. We would like to change this to No Soliciting to remedy that problem (visual shown.) Rachel Boone also had a concern regarding the landscaping, since we did not submit a landscape plan. We have decided to follow the example of the Cool Creek sign and landscaping. Low lying perennials, with the possibility of a shrub on each on the side. No plantings on the back this would be approximately 4 ft. of plantings. We currently have two signs at each entrance, this will now become one sign per entrance. As far as lighting is concerned we are looking at some solar S:/P1anCommission /Minutes /Committees /SpecStudies /2007 /SS- 2007- june28 10 ONE CIVIC SQUARE CARMEL, INDIANA 46032 317/571 -2417 light fixtures that would illuminate the sign only. If we cannot find something that we feel is suitable we will not have a sign. No area other than the sign will be illuminated. If the signs are illuminated enough by lampposts, we will not even go with any lighting fixtures. Ms. Strong distributed some photographs of the current neighborhood signs for the Committee members to review. She described the changes that would be made to the areas shown in the photos. Rachel Boone: To clarify, we asked the petitioner to remove the "Private Property" because there is an elementary school within the development "No Soliciting" is more appropriate. The Department is also pleased with downsizing to one sign, and that they will be placed in appropriate locations, and far enough back from the road and the right of way. The Department is pleased with the color scheme. The Department would recommend positive consideration for the subdivision sign. Kevin Heber asked if this subdivision is actually on the Monon. Ms. Strong indicated homes backed up to the Monon there is a private path to the Monon. Madeleine Torres asked the legal name of the subdivision. Ms. Strong indicated it is Orchard Park, which is why they reduced the "On the Monon" lettering. Ms. Strong had noticed that a number of subdivisions are using the Monon identification to their advantage, since it adds to property values. Madeleine Torres wondered if this would be confusing to prospective buyers. Ms. Strong said the neighborhood voted as a whole on both the signs and the language. Kevin Heber made formal motion to approve Docket No. 07060020 ADLS Amend: Orchard Park Subdivision Signage with the inclusion of the "No Soliciting" tag. The motion was seconded by Madeleine Torres and Approved 3 -0. 9. Docket No. 07060022 ADLS Amend: 10330 N Meridian St. Signage The applicant seeks approval for 16 new signs. The site is located at 10330 N. Meridian St. and is zoned B -6. Filed by Douglas Kochell of Hall Render. Douglas Kochell, counsel for St. Vincent presented for the petitioner, he was accompanied by Doug Staley, jr. of Staley Signs and from St Vincent real estate Paul Clendenin. St. Vincent will soon occupy the building on the north side of the Thompson campus. We are switching out the existing signs of Thompson to St. Vincent. Although the agenda indicates 16 new signs, it is actually the changing out of sign language. A couple of the signs will require us to go for a variance will address that at a later time. Regarding illumination the two wall signs on the frontage on Meridian, those two signs on the high sides will be illuminated channel lettering neon which is called dual color black during the day and white at night. To other signs over the entrances are not illuminated, just replacing what is there. There are two monument signs, we S:/P1anCommission /Minutes /Committees /SpecStudies /2007 /SS -2007 june28 I I ONE CIVIC SQUARE CARMEL, INDIANA 46032 317/571 -2417 will change the signage on those and there are 10 directional signs again, not adding what is existing just changing names. We will not be changing landscaping, if staff has any concerns we will be happy to work with them. Rachel –this is simply a change out of existing signs and any new signs are on, all directional signs will remain black all comply with ordinance. The Department recommends positive recommendation. Kevin Heber asked for further explanation of the lighting. Only new lighting internally lighted letters, the ground sign #7 is a routed aluminum face, so it has internal lighting and only St. Vincent Health with the Doves lights up. Sign 91 existing monument has an external light source already existing. Steve Stromquist inquired about the base —will it remain the same color? Mr. Kochell indicated it would remain the same color, since it ties into the building color. The base is all contained together It was clarified that this building will be an administrative building and not a health care facility. Madeleine Torres asked why St Vincent Health is the name of the entity. The Committee discussed the legal name of St. V's, etc. St. Vincent letter style is a very subtle and delicate so when we ask for a 149 sq. ft., it sounds worse than it is due to the delicate nature vs. the Thompson sign that has a much larger presence. On the northeast elevation the sign will be shifted to the right a little bit for a little architectural shift. Madeleine Torres made formal motion to approve Docket No. 07060022 ADLS Amend: 10330 North Meridian St. Signage, seconded by Kevin Heber, Approved 3 -0. 10. (Item Removed) 11. Docket No. 07040022 PP: Justus Business Park, lots 1 -2 The applicant seeks primary plat approval for 2 lots on 7.298 acres. The site is located at the southeast corner of 136 St. and Pro Med Ln. and is zoned B- 6 /Business within the US 31 Overlay. Filed by Paul Reis of Bose McKinney Evans for Justus Home Builders. NOTE: Items 11 and 12 were heard together. 12. Docket No. 07040023 DP Amend /ADLS Amend: Justus Business Park, lot 2 Justus Office Building The applicant seeks site plan design approval for an office building. The site is located southeast of 136 St. and Pro Med Ln. and is zoned B -6 /Business within the US 31 Overlay. Filed by Paul Reis of Bose McKinney Evans for Justus S:/P1anCommission /Minutes /Committees /SpecStudies /2007 /SS -2007 june28 12 ONE CIVIC SQUARE CARMEL, INDIANA 46032 317/571 -2417 Home Builders. Paul Reis of Bose McKinney and Evan presented for the petitioner. He was accompanied by Chris Miller of Justus Homes, Rick Reynolds of EMH &T Engineering and Barbara Eden from Carson Design, architect of the project. There are two petitions: Primary Plat and the Development Plan/ADLS Amendment. The primary plat petition is being sub divided into two lots. We are developing the lot to the east, adjacent to the Kensington Towne Homes. The site plan is under Tab 4 and shows the two vacant lots —the one to the west, ours, is the second lot we are talking about tonight —the office building. We have no outstanding issues with Engineering or Scott Brewer. The reason this is a DP Amend /ADLS Amend is that initially when we brought this project in two years ago the office building was going to be on the west parcel and we were proposing town homes to the east. That project was not approved and we are now moving the office building to the east, so we are amending the plan. The building itself is still the building that was approved two years ago and we are just moving it to a new site. The only change is that due to the topography of the land the building will have a partial basement which we did not have before. Mr. Reis indicated a visual of the current elevation. There was a request to look into the path along Smokey Row. This portion of the project is a very small asphalt path and there is no path to the east which would connect with anything else. The petitioner contacted David Littlejohn, Alternative Transportation Coordinator and we spoke about this path. David indicated that they still wanted the path in the plans, so the path will be included. We will have a connection from the building over to the path. I talked with Rick Reynolds, Site Engineer this evening and we will have it hand staked in the tree area to protect. We also have a sidewalk along Pro Med Lane and we talked about the fact that is just ends. We have talked with David and for the time being we will just leave this as is. David did not have a suggestion on that. We also talked about the possibility of a white roof and skylights. As far as the design goes, we are going to stick with the design that has already been approved. We will look into the viability of a white membrane roof, green design, because that may be energy saving. Justus companies will look at that and incorporate it into the plans to the extent that they can. Christine Barton Holmes referred to the Department Report and stated that the only outstanding issues were Engineering and Landscape. At this time, the Department is recommending positive consideration. Steve Stromquist asked if anyone from the public wished to speak. The following individuals were heard. Gary Doxtater, Kensington Estates: I have reviewed the application and the information that was given. I find there are still some serious concerns about drainage. They are instituting a bio remediation technique which is great except it is not spelled out where the ground water is S:/P1anCommission /Minutes /Committees /SpecStudies /2007 /SS -2007 june28 13 ONE CIVIC SQUARE CARMEL, INDIANA 46032 317/571 -2417 going—is it going to be piped out? If not, I am concerned it will be directed toward Kensington Place. That's the way the topography is. If it is evaporation, that is acceptable, but if it goes into the ground water, and the same applies for the pervious pavement that goes into the ground water and that is going to go our way, we have enough water coming through our area now. These are questions that I do not see answered. I want to see some answers to some of the questions I have raised. Traffic is another issue, but water is more important. I speak for myself and not the Kensington Homeowners Association. Paul Reis' response: Regarding storm water drainage, there has been a lot of technical drawings submitted to TAC and in fact after the last meeting we spoke with John Kerr, developer of Kensington, and we talked about drainage, etc. Rick Reynolds is here and will speak to this issue, but I can assure the Committee that the storm water will not be flowing into Kensington —that is part of TAC review —that storm water anywhere in Carmel does not flow into adjacent properties. Rick Reynolds indicated that the bio retention areas are connected underground with piping. What they do is filter ground water and clean it prior to going into the pipe and it is all collected toward the south and out to a drainage easement farther south and to a pond. It is a filtration system. John Kerr, Developer of Kensington Place. I have one rendition that shows drainage going to a beehive behind lot 17 has that been changed? Rick Reynolds: We are collecting and diverting almost all the water to this beehive and then piping it into the drainage. There will not be anywhere the same amount of water. Steve Stromquist asked the definition of beehive Rick indicated that it refers to the shape of the drain, it has holes all around it and does not clog. Virginia Kerr, Kensington Place requested that the developer do away with the blacktop and leave the trees. Ms. Kerr would like the plans to show respect for the 50 ft. buffer zone -who defines it will remain 50 ft, who monitors that? The traffic study, has it been set aside? (Christine noted that she has not been given an updated status on the traffic study.) Ms. Kerr requests that all aspects of the Meridian Overlay be adhered to. Steve Stromquist assured her this would be this case. Paul Reis gave some historical information on this site. When this land was rezoned to a business park, there was an initial requirement for a traffic study to be performed and that road way improvements would be made within a certain period of time. What transpired was that the State Highway reconfigured the intersection for Meridian Street and as a part of that, they took a large portion of right -of- way -so much so that there is nothing that can be done with Smokey Row Road now or Old Meridian until the US 31 upgrade goes forward. A traffic study will not yield any results. The office building was approved with the roads as they are in place. S:/P1anCommission /Minutes /Committees /SpecStudies /2007 /SS -2007 june28 14 ONE CIVIC SQUARE CARMEL, INDIANA 46032 317/571 -2417 Regarding tree preservation, Scott Brewer is very good about this. He makes sure that the trees are respected. Kevin Heber initiated conversation regarding the 10 ft. path. Paul Reis indicated that this path will have to stay and that perhaps in the future some connection may be made. Kevin also asked what the bio- retention areas look like. Rick indicated that the bio- retention areas look like an inverted berm with a low spot collection which is also a landscape area, so it naturalizes; in doing so, it filtrates the water and water quality. There are not fenced and they are dry only in the event of a heavy rain would they collect anything. There are approximately 10 feet 2' deep at the center. There will be landscaping. The filtration system is built up with gravel and filtration layers under it, so water goes in and then down quickly, so there is no standing water. Maple, willows, sweet gum, Cyprus, and swamp white oaks are all examples of the types of trees that could be used -Scott Brewer went over this very completely. Steve Stromquist asked about the green parking spaces that were suggested at the Plan Commission meeting. Paul Reis gave an up -date on the green spaces. At the Plan Commission there was discussion regarding implementing a requirement for "green spaces" for hybrid vehicles. However, there were differing views on the need for this. At this time, the petitioner has no plans to incorporate green spaces into the parking. Paul Reis said he would be happy to talk with David Littlejohn again and make a commitment when and if there is an extension of the path—at that time, the petitioner will build it. Christine Barton Holmes: If the path is not built now, the developer would have to dedicate the amount of money to the non reverting thoroughfare fund; when sidewalks, etc. are put in, the city would then put in the path. Paul Reis asked if this has worked before Christine indicated that it had and even though it is a fairly new program, it seems to be working well. Paul Reis will check with his client on the feasibility of doing this. Madeleine Torres made formal motion to forward Docket No. 07040022 PP: Justus Business Park, lots 1 -2 and Docket No. 07040023 DP Amend /ADLS Amend: Justus Business Park, lot 2 Justus Office Building, to the full Commission with a commitment that the ten foot asphalt path stays and that a white roof will be installed. Paul Reis commented that the Commission could make requests regarding the path, however it would be up to the developer. Chris Miller, Justus Home Builders indicated that this is something they will consider, however they have been in business since 1910 –just to jump in on a 40,000 sq. ft. building I am not S:/P1anCommission /Minutes /Committees /SpecStudies /2007 /SS -2007 june28 15 ONE CIVIC SQUARE CARMEL, INDIANA 46032 317/571 -2417 comfortable telling you I am going to do that right now we will look into doing it. Madeleine Torres' motion to forward to the full Commission was seconded by Kevin Heber and Approved 3 -0. 13. Docket No. 07030037 DP /ADLS: West Carmel Marketplace Burger King The applicant seeks site plan and design approval for a proposed restaurant building. The site is located at 9853 N Michigan Rd, and is zoned B -3 /Business within the US 421 Overlay. Filed by Richard Sampson of Burger King Corp. Mike Dauss of Dauss Architects presented for the petitioner. He was accompanied by Richard Sampson of Burger King. Mr. Dauss distributed a site plan as it was presented to the Plan Commission. He reviewed the comments with the Committee. We were asked to provided two parking spaces for alternative fuel vehicles and if we can reach a consideration on compromise if you look on the site plan next to the bike rack near a landscape area—we would like to designate that space for that particular parking designation. Concerning traffic flow We had worked with staff prior to the Plan Commission meeting and that comment took us by surprise. They did not like the stacking and they did not like the whole site plan. We need more clarification on this; we are open to changing that. What we had done previously, we visited this area and noted how other vendors had handled it, i.e. Wendy's had hoped to improve on that. Options we have looked are to perhaps move the egress and entrance into the site closer to the intersection. The reason we did not present this prior was that we have some concerns simply because it would take cars and put them right at the intersection of the access drive; it could add to congestion. The second option is listed as option AI should point out that this does not comply with the Overlay. The Overlay requires the drive through to be in the rear of the building as well as stacking and menu board —all to the back of the development. I think that is part of the problem with the circulation —you have cars going in opposite directions. Option A does present another option for the flow of traffic and that is why we have brought it for your comments and consideration Item 3-- Eliminate cross access easement. This actually was brought to us from the developer originally and we are just following that. We understood that cross access was wanted across those developments. If you could give us some more clarification, it would be appreciated. Item 4—Blue awnings. Again, we took our cues from sites that were nearby. Mike distributed photos of other vendors. He also presented samples materials of the fabric that is proposed. Item 5 no concern screen wall will go above the refuse boxes. Item 7 LSI lighting this is developer- dictated for that piece of property Item 8 commit to refresh signs in five years. This is a corporate owned store and they have a keen interest in keeping it updated and refreshed. S:/P1anCommission /Minutes /Committees /SpecStudies /2007 /SS -2007 june28 16 ONE CIVIC SQUARE CARMEL, INDIANA 46032 317/571 -2417 Item 9 Aluminum canopy over the order box. There are two things to clarify one is that the canopy can be made in fabric similar to the awning on the building so that it can match; second, it really is there for the convenience of Burger King customers we will do what the Committee wishes. Item 10 brings us to the menu board At the Plan commission meeting there were several discussions going on if we can have clarification on what the Board was considering, we are open to that. Christine Barton Holmes -DOCS, we do not have an update from Engineering, as far as the access ladder and other outstanding issues, there are a couple of different options and one of them is placing a screen panel or door matching the other parts of the building. The other option is placing the ladder internally. As far as the menu board, staff would prefer to see single panel or more enclosed casing around the boards and a brick base To address the circulation, Option A would require a couple of variances for stacking spaces in the side yard and also having the menu board in the side yard (Mike Dauss indicated that the menu boards would still be in the rear), you would have windows in side yard. The circulation of traffic under Option A would be somewhat safer and easier to navigate than Option C which does not require a variance. We will leave that to the discretion of the Commission. The Department is recommending that this go forward to the Plan Commission with a positive recommendation. Mike Dauss commented that Carmel Engineering indicated that the Burger King is out of their jurisdiction and the Hamilton County Engineering Dept is reviewing. Mike will get a copy of the county letter tomorrow. Kevin Heber– we can still do a brick base there is only 8 inches to grade —this is the request. Madeleine Torres would like to discuss the size of the menu board how does it compare with other signs in the area? Christine Barton Homes indicated that the Wendy's sign was larger. The Committee viewed a visual of the sign. Carol Schleif asked if they could use a more electronic menu board so that you could hit a button the board is huge as is the awning, we are trying to cut down on this here. Madeleine Torres asked if they would need a variance for the sign —the Department responded in the affirmative —they have requested a variance, it is a few square feet larger than permitted. Madeleine Torres asked how they would orient their building if there was no Overlay. Mike Dauss responded they would go with Option A. Staff also stated that this would be the most unobtrusive and safest flow of traffic, but would require a variance. Mike Dauss said that part of the conflict is that as seen on the plan as presented, if someone is entering and they want to cut over to get into the drive through and someone is waiting to get out —that move can't happen. If you go with Option A, you come in on the right hand side, if S:/P1anCommission /Minutes /Committees /SpecStudies /2007 /SS -2007 june28 17 ONE CIVIC SQUARE CARMEL, INDIANA 46032 317/571 -2417 you want to go to the drive through you can, if the stack is too long you can move on down through the parking lot, plus those people who are exiting are on the opposite side of the entrance. Carol Schleif when looking at Option A, I see a very large area of parking with little landscape. Madeleine Torres said she was leaning toward Option A which would mean a variance would be needed. Steve Stromquist said he was also leaning in that direction. Mike Dauss what do we need to do to accomplish this? Christine Barton Holmes indicated that they would need to meet noticing requirements and if you can get it on file within the next few days, the BZA hearing is July 23. Mike Dauss reiterated the building will turn what you would see as you came up on Michigan Rd. would be that main entrance the west elevation will become the South North will face the road. Move the signage from the south to the west. Carol Schlief asked the petitioner to make sure a lot of landscaping is installed. Madeline Torres made formal motion to forward Docket No. 07030037 DP /ADLS: West Carmel Marketplace Burger King to the Plan Commission, utilizing Option A if approved by the BZA with brick bottom on the sign board. If Option A is approved, petitioner is to ensure landscaping approval by Scott Brewer. The motion was seconded by Kevin Heber, Approved 3- 0. 14. Docket No. 07040021 DP /ADLS: Irwin Union Bank, Carmel Science Tech Park, Block 11, Lot 3 The applicant seeks site plan and design approval for a bank building. The site is located at the 700 block of West Carmel Dr. and is zoned M- 3/Manufacturing. Filed by Jim Shinaver of Nelson Frankenberger for Irwin Union Realty Corp. Jim Shinaver presented for the petitioner. Todd Williams was also present and utilized a laptop for presentation purposes. Also present: Sean Green, sign contractor; Brandon Burke, civil engmeer. I have prepared a presentation intended to follow along with the committee reports. As explained at the initial Plan Commission meeting, the real estate is zoned M -3 and is located on the southeast corner of Carmel Drive and City Center Drive, within the Carmel Science and Technology Park. Aerial photos were included in the original Plan Commission packets. The items below are in response to numbered items in the Staff Report. 1. Green parking spaces we are willing to incorporate two spaces on the site, but the concern is we don't believe those spaces deserve the same importance of handicapped spaces. S:/P1anCommission /Minutes /Committees /SpecStudies /2007 /SS -2007 june28 18 ONE CIVIC SQUARE CARMEL, INDIANA 46032 317/571 -2417 2. Concerns regarding building materials, architecture, attractiveness of the building. As was explained at the PC meeting, we felt that some of the elevations we shared with you were not truly reflective of what we were proposing. We want to spend some time discussing the architecture. Access point for what is called Lake Front Ct. and its location in respect to Carmel Drive and if you were to look at the site plan in tab 4 you will see plans which include Lake Front Ct. Jay Dorman expressed concerns regarding stacking, that drivers may decide rather than going directly to Carmel Dr. w The petitioner does not own the property that would be the subject of the stacking issue adjacent to Carmel Dr. However in speaking with Angie Conn, we have agreed to contact Gary Duncan, Engineering to discuss his thoughts on this design and this location and if Gary is in a position to speak with the owner and developer of those parcels to see if adjustments can be made. Jim has sent an email to Gary and will hope by the next pc meeting 4. Too many directional signs can be relevant to the discussion we had about stacking and site circulation. Jim handed out an exhibit is a site map which marks the location of the directional signs and behind it gives examples of the signs. There are only four directional signs and there may have been some confusion with the tab showing the signs, these are not separate signs, but rather the front and back. 5. Making the trash enclosure height higher than the refuse container we will commit to that. 6. A request was made to add a white roof and skylights to provide more green building design; the petitioner will build a white TPO material. Response to Staff Comments We have not received any comment letter from Engineering. Staff will supply us with the letter this evening. 2. Scott Brewer did send to our team on June 21 that he had reviewed the revised landscape and have met with his approval. 3. We have included pictures of how the ATM machine will look not much signage and is flush with the building and we thing designed very appropriately. 4. Moving location of dumpsters we will commit to that 5. Question is variances are required for signage on the site. Handed out one page exhibit show you the location of the signs. These will go for BZA review in August. 6. Continuation of signage Jim Shinaver gave a presentation on why these will either go to the BZA and have a determination by the Planning Director. S:/P1anCommission /Minutes /Committees /SpecStudies /2007 /SS -2007 june28 19 ONE CIVIC SQUARE CARMEL, INDIANA 46032 317/571 -2417 7. Provide crosswalk striping west of the bike rack, north of sidewalk this is complete. 8. If possible provide green construction. This will be covered in Todd's presentation. 9. Examples of materials are provided in the back of the room. Todd Williams has been an architect for over 20 years working with Irwin Bank in Indiana and other states for over 10 years. He also consults with another nationally known architect, Deborah Burke out of Manhattan she personally reviewed the building for Carmel. Todd Williams gave a power point presentation reviewing all aspects of the building. He discussed building materials, architecture, green construction. Material samples were brought in. Jim reiterated that after reviewing all overlays that this area is not under any overlay restrictions. There is value to having variety and uniqueness. Christine Barton Homes asked a couple of questions regarding the design of the building. Other than the TPO roof and windows are there any other "green" designs being used? Todd responded that that many of the materials used inside the building i.e., wall, ceiling and flooring are considered to be environmentally friendly. Christine noted that most issues have been addressed by the revised site plan. Regarding EFIS, we generally prefer to see precast or something that is more durable and less high maintenance over time. The Department recommends favorable consideration at this time. Carol Schleif don't see connection between orthodontics building and this building. What we are trying avoid with guidelines is long flat buildings with walls and elevations with punched windows —that is the style here. I like the long window in the lobby. The orthodontics building mixed it a bit and has some pizzazz Huge skylight going down the middle. Would like to see more detail huge blocks put together as a building. More detail is needed. Madeleine Torres indicated that this is a personal style preference, this is not in an overlay zone, they have met all the requirements in green use. I look at the building and think it is cool. I am sure that Irwin has done their homework and what makes customers feel at home. It also looks stark because there is no landscaping shown which will warm up the building. Jim Shinaver asked Carol Schleif if she had any ideas to explain what type of detail she was looking for. Jim Shinaver indicated that Irwin Bank is open for ideas, but cannot redesign the building. Carol responded just more detail around the outside i.e., a bank separating top/bottom. Kevin Heber on the driveway, does the sidewalk need to curve? Could it shoot out to the multiuse path? What is the plan for the right -of -way? Can the entrance be spruced up? Christine Holmes indicated that there is a deep swale there. S:/P1anCommission /Minutes /Committees /SpecStudies /2007 /SS -2007 june28 20 ONE CIVIC SQUARE CARMEL, INDIANA 46032 317/571 -2417 Madeleine made a motion to approve Docket No. 07040021 DP /ADLS: Irwin Union Bank, Carmel Science Tech Park, Block 11, Lot 3, seconded by Kevin Heber, Approved 3 -0. 15. Docket No. 07040024 DP: 1328 -1440 W. Main Street The applicant seeks development plan approval for five buildings. The site is located at the NE corner of US 31 (Meridian) and W. Main Street and is zoned B -6 /Business within the US 31 Overlay. Filed by Jamie Browning of Browning Real Estate Partners. James Browning presented and was accompanied by David Lash. Jamie Browning re- stated an overview of the development plan submission and addressed the comments that were in the Staff Report. The property is currently owned by St. Christopher's church and is currently listed for sale. The church has since moved their location. In the last couple of months, Jamie Browning said he had taken this property through the rezoning process, and it was rezoned to a B -6 parcel. The development plan is in effect to establish the road system to 131 street, location of the detention and water quality basins, the access drives, the landscaping plans, and market the property. The planned uses are mixed use development, including a small amount of retail, office and hotel. We have taken the interior access road on the north end of the development that comes off to 131 st and ties into Grand Blvd. which is being engineered to tie into Old Meridian —our road now aligns itself with Grand Blvd. as requested by the Department and added to the plan. The plans provide for a roundabout at Pennsylvania and 131 street and one of the issues is how we aligned ourselves to provide access to our site. We did submit site plans, however at this junction the location and the size of the buildings and the number of buildings is merely conceptual. This is an iteration of a plan that we have used internally and have also used for marketing purposes. It is our position and our understanding that the buildings themselves and the architecture and issues of that nature would be addressed in our second phase when we returned to the Commission for ADLS approval. We will be seeking ADLS approval on a lot -to -lot basis. The petitioner then addressed comments from the Plan Commission and Department Staff. 1. The first comments regarding the Development Plan and ADLS should have been brought at the same time. This issue is one I addressed with Mike Hollibaugh several months ago. It used to be that the system was to file primary plats in Carmel —that requirement was taken away from commercial developments but remains with residential. It was indicated to Mike Hollibaugh that we want to establish our access roads, drainage, roadways, and landscaping at this juncture. Mike explained that the most appropriate way is to initiate a DP. My reading of the ordinance is that the DP submission and ADLS are two completely different processes and the ADLS submission at this time would not be appropriate for us. We cannot design buildings when we do not know who our users will be. We will have to reappear before the Plan Commission to obtain ADLS approval. At that time we can issue landscaping specific to the site, architecture specific to the site, and obviously signage. S:/P1anCommission /Minutes /Committees /SpecStudies /2007 /SS -2007 june28 21 ONE CIVIC SQUARE CARMEL, INDIANA 46032 317/571 -2417 2. Too much pavement needs more green space. Showed a visual exhibit. Per ordinance coverage is a maximum of 65% our coverage is 58% we are 7% below the maximum. Well within the limits of the green space. It is a little premature to indicate what the pavement amount will be. 3. Create more natural shaped ponds when you comply with a 90 ft. set back that gives you lots of open space and space to create retention ponds, but our retention ponds /detention water quality basins are a function of our responding to the water shed. Water in this area flows form the north end of the property down south to the west and has to go underneath US 31. In fact, there is a requirement from the County Surveyor to under US 31 and put enough capacity to handle our project. So it makes sense from an engineering standpoint to put the ponds where they are. The water quality system gets its guidance from the EPA. 4. To discuss creativity and design is premature at this time. Creativity discussion would be more appropriate at the ADLS application, this is when you get into more discussion regarding architecture and landscaping. I do think there is some creativity in using some best management practices and creating a scenario that is good for the environment and the efficient way to move water through the park. Regarding permeable pavers, this is a practice that I am becoming more aware of The reality is that I don't know too many projects that use it, however we are amenable to looking at it when constructing parking lotsI need to do more research. Staff 1. Engineer attended at meeting with Mike McBride and Mike Hollibaugh and the issue is addressed and will receive a letter form Mike Hollibaugh and will have than prior to the next plan commission meeting. 2. Will agree with landscape plan and will get comments from Scott Brewer prior to the next plan commission meeting. 3. We have not received a letter from engineering as yet. Have had many meeting with engineering, we have addressed many concerns. Christine Barton Holmes as a point of clarification, the DP that is on file is a rough place holder for the infrastructure, rather than the actual buildings themselves. As far as the site plan goes, we have a few suggestions for the petitioner. As filed, we feel that it meets the intent of the Overlay, but not the spirit of the Overlay. The Old Meridian project is intended to be very pedestrian friendly and an urbanized corridor—in the proposed site plan, there is a lot of parking. We would ask that the petitioner consider grouping the buildings together; if installing a parking garage, possibly considering preserving some of the trees in the NE corner and bunching more of the parking together to allow more preservation in that area. Perhaps put some fingers of the retention ponds in between the buildings to give more green areas, and areas for outside picnic areas— possibly an outside restaurant. S:/P1anCommission /Minutes /Committees /SpecStudies /2007 /SS -2007 june28 22 ONE CIVIC SQUARE CARMEL, INDIANA 46032 317/571 -2417 The Department is recommending positive consideration and we will have many more comments as the ADLS comes thorough. Steve Stromquist asked if anyone from the public would like to speak. Howard Blackwood, citizen speaking for Judy Stanford (sp) for the North Meridian Heights Subdivision. On June 19 Mr. Browning indicated he had a parking agreement with St. Christopher's church which gives him 89 parking spaces plus 6 handicapped. We had requested that he reduce the parking lot by 150 spaces in order to leave more of a buffer between the subdivision and his development. Has that been addressed? We would like to have a reduction of 79 parking spaces. Madeleine Torres for comfort level, I would like to clarify that we will be seeing the project again. Jamie Browning referred to the Development Plan and the parking, drainage, the location of the ponds, the stamp of the buildings, and points of access —this plan will be back many times. Christine indicated that this has been seen in other petitions on file. Initially just the Development Plan is filed and it is usually for one or two buildings. This plan is a rough template. We hope there is flexibility in the overall site plan and this is just for potential users as far as where things may be. Madeleine Torres asked about the parking how many square feet are planned and would it be underground? Jamie Browning's response: 200,000 square feet; David Lash indicated that they are not leaning towards underground parking. Jaime Browning commented that they had done a good job of keeping the parking behind the building and out of site of 131 st street. Steve Stromquist what will happen if a client comes back to you with buildings that are bigger than the footprint you are showing us? Jaime Browning: We would return with DP Amend /ADLS. Steve Stromquist asked if it is the petitioner's intent to have 5 buildings. Jamie Browning responded in the negative and if he were to do this over again, he would leave the building pads off the plans. Currently, the concern is access, etc. as previously discussed. Discussion was held regarding upcoming roundabout construction on 131 and US 31 —not currently under construction but in future plans. S:/P1anCommission /Minutes /Committees /SpecStudies /2007 /SS -2007 june28 23 ONE CIVIC SQUARE CARMEL, INDIANA 46032 317/571 -2417 Steve Stromquist said that another facilities space cannot be used for parking. What will be in the buffer zone —the 45 foot building set -back line? Jamie Browning responded that it is his intention to leave all the trees in the buffer zone between the development and the subdivision. Carol Schleif asked John Molitor what the Committee is approving if this plan is approved does it mean we are approving all of the buildings, etc. John Molitor advised the Committee that they were under obligation to recommend approval of this item if it complies with the standards in the Ordinances. If approval is recommended, it is only for the conceptual plan —all others will come back before the Commission again. There was discussion regarding the number and height of the buildings —the petitioner said he would not exceed the number of buildings at 116 Street and the buildings would probably be 5 or 6 stories. Kevin Heber there are parts here that pose a problem for me. The east access drive that is an extension of Grand Blvd. then you go to this small access road with no sidewalk—it is really close to the church driveway and gives you two driveways, side -by -side. Obviously, the church had no idea about this when then built their driveway two driveways side -by -side is messy and the fact that there are no sidewalks and its going to be mysterious that Grand Blvd. ends right there it makes no sense Jamie Browning said the access drive was recommended by staff, there is a second entry /exit from the property for fire access and public safety. The access drive conceived that those would be combined. The petitioner is working with the church to have combined access that would align with Grand Boulevard at the roundabout. Kevin Heber I would think we would want to make it look like an entrance. Jamie Browning said that if public safety is the main thing, they would need to do what was done on another recent project –just make that grass pavers, skip the whole access road make it invisible. Product Invisible Structures is a honeycomb style structure, you cannot see it, it is under the turf, filled with sand and you can drive over itit has structural ability. Kevin Heber commented that in general, it would be nice if there were a better way to route people from their cars to the buildings. It looks awkward. A citizen asked how traffic would be controlled in this area with only two -lane roads; the petitioner responded, "That is the reason for the round abouts." S:/P1anCommission /Minutes /Committees /SpecStudies /2007 /SS -2007 june28 24 ONE CIVIC SQUARE CARMEL, INDIANA 46032 317/571 -2417 Kevin Heber made formal motion to forward Docket No. 07040024 DP: 1328 -1440 W. Main Street to the full Commission with a favorable recommendation, with the condition that the east interior access drive be removed for vehicular traffic except for purposes of public safety and to design that as a permeable pavement to support the use for public safety. Madeleine Torres seconded the motion and it was Approved 3 -0. 16. Docket No. 07020020 OA: US 31 421 Overlay Architectural Design Amendment TABLED The applicant seeks to Amend the Zoning Ordinance, Chapter 23B: US Highway 31 Corridor Overlay Zone and Chapter 23C: US Highway 421— Michigan Road Corridor Overlay Zone, in order to amend the Architectural Design Requirements. Filed by the Carmel Department of Community Services. 17. (Forwarded to AUG. 7 SUBDIVISION Committee Meeting) Doeket No. 07050023 OA; Monon Trail Over-lay Zone The appheant seeks to adopt Ch6q?ter 23H-. AMnon Trail Overlay Zone into the There was no further business to come before the Committee and the meeting adjourned at 9:50 PM. Steve Stromquist, Chairperson Lisa Stewart, Secretary pro tem S:/P1anCommission /Minutes /Committees /SpecStudies /2007 /SS -2007 june28 25 ONE CIVIC SQUARE CARMEL, INDIANA 46032 317/571 -2417