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CARMEL PLAN COMMISSION
SPECIAL STUDIES COMMITTEE
THURSDAY, NOVEMBER 1, 2007
Minutes
The Special Studies Committee of the Carmel Plan Commission met at 6:00 PM November 1, 2007 in
the Caucus Rooms at City Hall, Carmel, Indiana.
Members Present: Wayne Haney, Kevin Heber, Steve Stromquist, Madeleine Torres, Susan
Westermeier.
DOCS Staff in attendance: Alexia Donahue -Wold, Rachel Boone. John Molitor, Legal Counsel was
also present.
Alexia Donahue -Wold announced that items 8 and 9, Docket No. 07070003 Z, (Rezone) 146 Gray
Rezone (146 St Office Complex) and Docket No. 07070004 PP, (Primary Plat) 146 St Office
Complex were TABLED to November 29, 2007. Pro -Med Lane Holiday Inn, Docket 07030035 DP,
and 07070009 ADLS, will be heard together.
The Special Studies Committee considered the following items:
1. Docket No. 07090016 ADLS Amend: Vine and Table Signage
The applicant seeks approval for a new ground and wall sign. The site is located at 313 E Carmel
Dr. It is zoned B-8/Business. Filed by Mike Oswald of Sign Craft Industries.
Mike Oswald, Sign Craft Industries, 8924 Corporation Drive, agent for Vine and Table appeared before
the Committee. The petitioner is proposing a new ground sign and wall sign located at Kahn's Fine Wines,
313 East Carmel Drive, Carmel.
Department Comments, Rachel Boone: The ground sign will be six feet tall, 32 square feet in area,
internally illuminated.
Mike Oswald further explained that the sign will be two sides, and the sign edge will be blue. The Vine and
Table letters (changeable copy) will come through as red, the logo will also be color; the white will show
through as black.
Rachel Boone said that the wall sign will be 65 square feet in area, individual channel lit letters, and the
canopy of the store will be light brown--one consistent color. Both the Wall and the Ground Sign fit
within the requirements of the Ordinance.
Committee:
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Madeleine Torres asked if the shade of blue would be a royal blue or a lighter shade. Madeleine
thought that the script of the sign took away from the logo; however, it is permitted.
Mike Oswald responded that the back panel will be a soft blue, not a bright blue, and will be
fluorescent at night.
Kevin Heber asked whether or not the sign messages are manually placed.
Rachel Boone responded that the Sign Ordinance prohibits electronic changeable copy.
Madeleine Torres made formal motion to approve Docket No. 07090016 ADLS Amend, Vine
and Table Signage, seconded by Wayne Haney, APPROVED 5 -0.
2. Docket No. 07090011 ADLS Amend: McClammer Accounting Signage
The applicant seeks approval for one ground sign. The site is located at 10411 N. College Ave.
and is zoned B-5/Business within the Home Place Business District.
Filed by Vanessa Suiter of Express Graphics.
Theresa Bartlett, Express Graphics, 620 South Range Line Road, Carmel appeared before the Committee.
Express Graphics was hired by McClammer Accounting to seek approval for a suspended sign located at
10411 North College Avenue.
The Sign Permit has already been filed; Ms. Bartlett displayed a drawing of the sign, 30 inches tall, 24
inches wide in the same style as a sign that is currently on site Centennial Remodeling. The signs will
share a common pole, one sign suspended on either side. The proposal is to place the McClammer sign on
the same post that exists for Centennial.
Department Comments, Rachel Boone: This is a multi- tenant building, eight (8) tenants, and there is
concern that the other tenants will also want Signage. One ground sign is allowed, and each tenant is
allowed a wall sign. A wall sign would be easier, but the applicant wants a ground sign closer to the road
and it is not permissible with two facing the same right -of -way. The allowable square footage is 62, the
two signs are significantly under that. The proposed sign is a good compromise, and the Department
recommends positive consideration. If both signs faced College, a variance would be required; the
proposal is a good compromise.
The Committee clarified that the McClammer sign background is to be burgundy and arched as the
Centennial sign is arched. The sign post will also be burgundy.
Madeleine Torres made formal motion to approve Docket No. 07090011 ADLS Amend, McClammer
Accounting Signage, conditioned upon the proposed sign being a similar shape as the Centennial sign,
and the sign post being burgundy; seconded by Susan Westermeier, APPROVED 5 -0.
3. Docket No. 07100014 ADLS Amend: Smart Car Ph. II Signage
The applicant seeks approval for three new signs. The site is located at 4000 E 96"' St. It is
zoned B-3/Business.
Filed by Jim Shinaver of Nelson and Frankenberger.
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Jim Shinaver, attorney with Nelson and Frankenberger appeared before the Committee. Also in attendance:
Paul Pettenaro, owner and operator of World Wide Motors —now franchisee for Smart Car, and Mark
Tworek, Baxter Sett.
The application is for four (4) new signs. The first sign is on the eastern elevation for "Smart Center
Indianapolis" wall sign located on the entry portal facing 96"' Street. The sign will consist of 14.54 square
feet, and will be internally illuminated with individual channel letters, white faces. The sign will be white
during the day and night.
The second sign is a small directional sign facing Lake Shore Drive, consisting of 13.6 square feet. The
total square footage allowed for directory signs is 20; the total square footage allowed for this frontage is
80; the total square footage is 48.11. The sign is white with black lettering and will be internally
illuminated.
The third sign will be farther down Lake Shore Drive for a second tenant —the Mercedes Benz Used Car
Dealership. The sign will be 74.58 square feet in size and will read: "Used Car Center." The sign will
consist of a black background with white letters, internally illuminated.
The fourth sign will face Lake Shore Drive and is for "Service" customers of the Smart Car Dealership.
The sign is approximately 2.06 square feet in size and is considered an incidental sign because it is less
than three square feet; therefore no permit or variance will be required. The sign will be internally
illuminated channel letters, white during the day and night.
Department Comments, Rachel Boone: Three signs need approval: Smart Center Indianapolis, the
directional sign, and the Used Car Center signs. All three signs are within the size requirement of the Sign
Ordinance for each fagade. The petitioner received Variance approval last week for two signs to face 96"'
Street and two signs to face Lake Shore Drive. The Smart Center Indianapolis sign is 42 square feet facing
Lake Shore Drive -48 square feet combined. The Used Car Center square footage and color style fit for
the second tenant. The Department is recommending positive consideration.
Committee Comments:
Susan Westermeier questioned the color for the Used Car Center sign.
Jim Shinaver responded that the sign is black background, white letters. The signs are consistent with
those signs previously approved, made in Canada. The petitioner is under an intense deadline to open for
business and be able to sell products by the first week in January, 2008.
Madeleine Torres made formal motion to approve Docket No. 07100014 ADLS Amend, Smart Car Ph.
II Signage, seconded by Wayne Haney, APPROVED 5 -0.
4. Docket No. 07100015 ADLS Amend: Carmel Station Signage
The applicant seeks approval for 1 new ground sign. The site is located at the corner of City
Center Dr. and Carmel Garden Dr. It is zoned M- 3/Manufacturing.
Filed by Fred Todd of the Carmel Station Home Owners Association.
Fred Todd, 510 Beacon Street, President of Carmel Station HOA appeared before the Committee
representing the applicant. Carmel Station is proposing one new ground sign to be located on City Center
Drive and Carmel Garden Drive. Currently there is a sign on either side of a divided entry with a brick
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flower box. A sign is being proposed at the opposite end of the property, the north entrance, where there is
currently no identity; the sign would be within the common area.
The sign would be limestone, black lettering —same logo, same configuration, except that the spikes would
be eliminated and would be much safer for children.
Department Comments, Rachel Boone: The sign Ordinance permits subdivisions to have one sign at each
entry. The sign will be retro- fitted, and the limestone with the black lettering will look good. The sign
being proposed in approximately 17 square feet and meets the requirements of the Ordinance. At this time,
the Department is recommending positive consideration. There is a sign on either side of the entry on Clark
Street, and one proposed on Garden Center. This same structure will be replicated at the second entry.
Committee Members:
The Committee suggested covering the top of the stakes on the existing sign with a black, split garden hose
for safety.
Madeleine Torres suggested changing the top of the sign to arch rather than being straight across.
Susan Westermeier made formal motion to approve Docket No. 07100015 ADLS Amend, Carmel
Station Signage with the top of the proposed sign arching to match the existing signs, seconded by
Madeleine Torres, APPROVED 5 -0.
5. Docket No. 07100017 ADLS Amend: Citi Smith Barney Signage
The applicant seeks approval for I new wall sign. The site is located at 800 E. 96"' St. in
Parkwood Crossing East. It is zoned PUD. Filed by Kay Goldsberry of Visual Sign Co.
Kay Goldsberry, Visual Sign Co., 401 South Alabama, Indianapolis 46204 appeared before the
Committee. The proposed new wall sign will be located on the east fagade of the building; the letters will
be black in the day, illuminated white at night. The size of the sign will increase to 57.64 square feet; 60
feet is allowed. The "Citi" logo is being added.
Department Comments. Rachel Boone: Previously, a variance was granted to allow this sign at this
particular placement on the building. The new wall sign will be completely black during the day and white
at night. The sign fits within the requirements of the Ordinance and the architectural features of the
building. The sign also meets the PUD requirements. At this time, the Department is recommending
positive consideration.
Committee Comments:
Color: The letters will be black during the day and white at night—required by Duke as a part of the
Center. The "Citi" logo will not be red.
Madeleine Torres made formal motion to approve Docket No. 07100017 ADLS Amend, Citi Smith
Barney Signage, seconded by Wayne Haney, APPROVED 5 -0.
6. Docket No. 07100030 ADLS Amend: Crystal Flash Signage
The applicant seeks approval for a remodel of the gas station with 4 new signs.
The site is located at 545 S. Rangeline Rd. and is located in the Carmel Dr. /Rangeline Rd. overlay
zone. It is zoned B -1. Filed by Michael Barnes of Ryne Wood Builders, Inc.
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Michael Barnes, Ryne Wood Builders, 400 West McGalliard Road, Muncie, appeared before the
Committee. Also in attendance: Andy Batt, Crystal Flash.
The petitioner is requesting consideration to allow white on the corner of the canopy with the gold slash.
The petitioner would like to have lettering on the canopy, but understands that the Department will not
support that request.
Regarding the ground signs, the petitioner is using a ground sign that is 5.2" wide by 6 feet in height. The
sign will be illuminated with changeable letters for pricing. An additional sign will be located above the
front door under the canopy and will consist of the Crystal Flash logo.
A photograph was shown of the newly renovated Crystal Flash store in Fishers.
The pump signage is considered incidental signs.
Department Comments, Rachel Boone: Crystal Flash has one frontage on Range Line and is allowed one
sign. The signs along the tops of the canopy would need a variance —the Department feels it is not
necessary to have those signs, however, the Dept is in support of the color change —red, white and gold.
There is a previous variance for the ground sign to be located in the right -of -way and the price sign. That
variance gives the petitioner two signs.
The ground sign and the wall sign above the entrance combined are under the amount allotted. The
petitioner has agreed to remove the second ground sign "CF" and consolidate into one ground sign and the
other above the entrance at 18 feet. The sign above each gas pump is under three square feet and similar in
character to other gas stations on Range Line Road. The Department has no problem with the red and
white on the canopy.
One of the pumps is imaged for Ethanol 85 (E -85) and that will not be changed. The other five pumps are
being converted to a new image by putting on an aluminum composite face —the existing pumps look dated.
The tenant panel would require a variance for its sign. If requested in the future, the petitioner would
return for a second sign at the approval of the tenant. Currently, Firehouse Pizza is located in the building
and has a separate entrance; they have a sign in their window.
Madeleine Torres made formal motion for approval of Docket No. 07100030 ADLS Amend, Crystal
Flash Signage, with the understanding that the tenant panel would pertain only to Crystal Flash and only
on the wall with another tenant sign; the canopy allows the yellow slash—no wording on the corner,
seconded by Wayne Haney, APPROVED 5 -0.
7. Docket No. 07100031 ADLS Amend: Timber Creek Condominiums Signage
The applicant seeks approval for 2 new ground signs after the demolition of their existing signs
with the construction of City Center Dr. The site is located at City Center Dr. and Timber Creek
Dr. It is zoned M -3. Filed by Ron Koster and Joe Apparito of Timber Creek HOA.
Ron Coster, 1076 Timber Creek Drive, President of Timber Creek HOA, and Sandy Weedman, Secretary
Treasurer of Timber Creek HOA appeared before the Committee representing the applicant. The request is
for the replacement of signs after the demolition of their existing signs by the City. The new signs will be
etched limestone and will say "Timber Creek Condominiums." The lighting will be up-graded—fluorescent
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lighting to light the sign itself, and mushroom -type lights around the landscaping. The signage basically
replaces the previously existing. The sign would be set lower to improve visibility.
Department Comments, Rachel Boone: The Subdivision is allowed to have a 54 square -foot sign,
and this has been evenly split between two signs at the one entrance, one on either side of the
masonry entrance limestone sign; the signs are etched with black letters "Timber Creek
Condominiums." The Department has no concerns with the signs and recommends favorable
consideration.
Madeleine Torres made formal motion to approve Docket No. 07100031 ADLS Amend,
Timber Creek Condominiums Signage as presented, seconded by Susan Westermeier,
APPROVED 5 -0.
8. TABLED: Docket No. 07070003 Z: 146th Gray Rezone (146th St Office Complex)
The applicant seeks approval to rezone 11.6 acres from S -1 /Residence to B- 1/Business
for an office /retail development. The site is located at the southeast corner of 146"' St. and
Gray Rd. Filed by Kelli Lawrence of Hearthview Residential, LLC.
9. TABLED: Docket No. 07070004 PP: 146th St Office Complex
The applicant seeks primary plat approval for 5 lots on 11.6 acres. The site is located at the
southeast corner of 146"' St. and Gray Rd. and is zoned S -1 /Residence, pending a B -1/
Business rezone. Filed by Kelli Lawrence of Hearthview Residential, LLC
10. Docket No. 07030035 DP: Pro -Med Lane Holiday Inn
The applicant seeks site plan approval for a proposed full- service hotel. ADLS is under another
docket no. below. The site is located at 136th Street and Pro -Med Lane, and is zoned B-
6/Business within the US 3I/Meridian Street Overlay. Filed by Stacey of DeBoy Land
Development Services, Inc. for Justus Home Builders, Inc.
11. Docket No. 07070009 ADLS: Holiday Inn at Pro Med Ln
The applicant seeks architecture /design approval for a proposed full- service hotel. The site is
located at 136"' Street and Pro Med Lane, and is zoned B6, within the US 3I/Meridian Street
Overlay. Filed by Dave Coots of Coots, Henke Wheeler for Midwest Hospitality Group, Inc.
Note: Items 10 and 11 were heard together.
Dave Coots, Coots, Henke Wheeler appeared before the Committee on behalf of the petitioner. Also in
attendance: Mike DeBoy, Engineer, and Sanjay Patel. Certain changes have been made to the site plan.
Initially, the site was underparked parking is now provided beneath the structure to meet the limitation on
lot coverage; 153 spaces are required per the Ordinance and parking is provided for hotel convention and
employees.
Comments were received from Scott Brewer, Urban Forester, and the petitioner believes he has complied
with the changes requested. There are still some changes to be made to the drawings and submitted to the
Department. The biggest issue has been the tree preservation requirement for this site; 24% of the overall
site is tree preservation area. Scott had additional questions regarding how utilities were being
accommodated with the tree material being used and the tree preservation area as designated. Dave Coots
said he believes all of those issues and questions have been addressed.
The drawings will be revised and submitted for one final review by the Department and Scott Brewer.
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The Engineering Dept. has said that they will not support this application until there is a traffic study
submitted. Meridian has been closed due to the construction traffic and Steve Fehribach has been unable to
complete a traffic count. However, the Department has agreed that the 2005 Traffic Report can be utilized
for this project with 3% augments per year. Gary Duncan, Engineering will have to give consent for the
traffic count numbers to be used for this project. The concluded traffic study will be available by the
middle of next week.
The retaining wall runs along the south boundary to a point and then along the boundary adjacent to 136'
Street. The reason for the retaining wall is to avoid having to slope away from the parking lot at a 3:1 side
slope that would extend farther into the tree area. The retaining wall would be a more effective way to
prevent encroaching into the tree preservation area
The Department recommended narrowing the traffic aisles to 23 feet —the petitioner has agreed to that and
it will be incorporated in the drawing.
Item 94 showing structure column locations of the underground parking area —the petitioner believes he
has clear span and there will not be support structures in the parking area.
The building materials on the building elevation were previously submitted to the Department with the
drawings. EFIS is used at the lower level and crown, otherwise, the balance of the building will be brick
material. The lower course material is a textured row and smooth with limestone breaks in between.
The parapet does conceal the HVAC units. The building is 4- stories; the trash dumpster will be all brick;
the petitioner will submit details prior to the next meeting. The mechanical equipment has been addressed.
Sign Issue: The petitioner will re- locate the sign on the east wall to the north wall of the building facing
Pro -Med Lane and 136 Street, thereby eliminating the need for a variance. The sign will be day /night
plex. There is a trademark requirement by Holiday Innif permitted, will do it proposed sign is Holiday
Inn Green.
Mike DeBoy explained the pervious pavers and said they would also act as a stormwater quality device; by
Ordinance there must be two devices in series and since we drain into the central detention area on site.
The vast majority of the parking areas will be pervious pavers —also a nice, architectural asset as well as a
stormwater quality device.
Regarding the parking, the parking now complies with the Ordinance and no variance is needed. In
addressing whether or not this proposal is the highest and best use for this land —the land use has been
established by the zone classification and the hotel is a permitted use within the zone classification. The
petitioner complies with the elements of the Ordinance. The fact that someone might like to see something
different on this parcel does not really weigh in on the issue of whether or not this building meets the
criteria of the Ordinance. Once all of the drawings and plans have been submitted, that question will be
moot.
Sign sizes have been omitted from the architectural drawings and will be submitted.
The Engineering comments will be submitted prior to the next meeting.
Department Comments, Alexia Donahue -Wold: As stated, the petitioner is working on the traffic study and
the Engineering Department will not give approval to move on without compliance. The landscape and tree
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preservation plan is also to be finalized. At this time, the Department is recommending that this item be
tabled to the November 29 Committee meeting.
Madeleine Torres commented that this evening has been an incomplete presentation for this development.
Madeleine was also in favor of Tabling.
Steve Stromquist asked about the one level parking garage and whether or not the height of the water table
had been tested.
Mike DeBoy responded that the site will have some drainage issues, but because it is a parking garage
And there is a good outlet at the southeast corner of the property, no problem is anticipated.
Steve Stromquist said this could be a MAJOR problem with this project. Also, what is the date of the 2005
Traffic Study? The previous study was done in June, and December /January when school was not in
session —the previous traffic study is a farce!
Dave Coots responded that he was given permission to use the traffic study if it were increased by 3
Dave said he would meet with the Engineering Department again. This is a development plan —this may
also be a limited access for a hotel. When Meridian is torn up it will be even worse.
John Molitor commented that the State and City show this area as a major interchange on the plans.
Susan Westermeier asked that the petitioner not return to committee without Engineer and Urban Forester
approval because the committee cannot proceed. This does not seem like the place for a hotel and it does
not seem like the place for additional traffic.
Steve Stromquist said that the kids from the west side drive this road (Smokey Row) to the high school, it is
a heavily traveled road—traffic is a major concern at this location. Put a counter out there and we will see!
If this were an office building proposed, it would be just the opposite situation.
Madeleine Torres commented that in view of all of the outstanding issues, the Traffic Report, the
interchange at US 31, limited access, etc., it feels as if we are putting a round peg in a square slot; this may
not be the best place for a hotel.
The Committee concurred with the Department— Docket No. 07030035 DP, Pro -Med Lane Holiday
Inn and Docket No. 07070009 ADLS, Holiday Inn at Pro -Med Lane were TABLED to the November
29, 2007 Committee meeting.
12. Docket No. 07070037 Z: Dixie Highway Addition, lot 5 pt
The applicant seeks approval to rezone 0.41 acres from R -3 /Residence to B- 1/Business
within the Home Place Business District. The site is located at 10696 N College Ave.
Filed by E. Davis Coots of Coots, Henke Wheeler, and P.C.
Dave Coots, Coots, Henke Wheeler appeared before the Committee representing Levi Investments,
owner of this parcel.
The petitioner is requesting a rezone from R -3 /Residence to B- 1/Business. The parcel is located at 10696
North College Avenue, within the Home Place Business District. The petitioner intends to develop the
parcel as low density retail/office use.
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Beginning at 106' Street, to the south is a closed service station, an acupuncture /chiropractor office that is
"for sale," a single family residence immediately to the south of this parcel, the parcel (building) requested
for rezone, and to the north, a B -1 property two properties north of 108' Street.
This particular piece is located within the Home Place Overlay Zone and it is the intention of the Overlay
that College Avenue becomes commercial use. After the rezone, the petitioner would return for ADLS
review and approval.
Department Comments, Alexia- Donahue -Wold: A site plan has been provided; as stated, the petitioner will
return for DP /ADLS review and approval. To date, there has been no approval from the County Surveyor
or the County Highway. The Department is recommending favorable consideration of the rezone, subject
to County Surveyor and County Highway approval.
Committee Comments:
Wayne Haney had questions regarding the existing building.
Dave Coots responded that the owner will tear down the existing garage but will not do anything to the
exterior until a tenant requires it.
Sue Westermeier made formal motion to forward Docket No. 07070037 Z, Dixie Highway Addition, lot 5
pt. to the City Council with a positive recommendation, conditioned upon approval from the County
Surveyor and the County Highway prior to the November 20, 2007 full Plan Commission meeting,
seconded by Wayne Haney, APPROVED 5 -0.
There was no further business to come before the Committee and the meeting adjourned at 8:15 PM.
Steve Stromquist, Chairperson
Ramona Hancock, Secretary
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