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CARMEL PLAN COMMISSION
SPECIAL STUDIES COMMITTEE
February 05, 2008
Minutes
The Special Studies Committee of the Carmel Plan Commission met at 6:00 PM in the Caucus
Rooms of City Hall. Members in attendance: Wayne Haney, Rick Ripma, Kevin "Woody" Rider,
Sue Westermeier, thereby establishing a quorum.
Department of Community Services Staff Present: Rachel Boone and Christine Barton Holmes.
Rick Ripma was elected Chairperson by Unanimous Consent.
The Special Studies Committee considered the following items:
1. Docket No. 08010008 ADLS Amend: Hubler Express Collision Signage
The applicant seeks approval for one new ground sign. The site is located at 503 E. Carmel Dr. It
is zoned I -1. Filed by Rich Williams of Sign -A -Rama Indy South.
Present for Petitioner: Rich Williams, owner of Sign -A -Rama Indy South, 8319 US 31 South,
Indianapolis. Hubler Collision has leased space at 503 West Carmel Drive for an Auto Body Repair Shop.
The physical location is off a service road behind the Ritron Building.
Hubler Collision would like a sign at the Street for identification purposes and exposure for their clients
and customers. The proposed ground monument sign material is high density urethane; the sign artwork
for the face was displayed—Express Collision with the address on both sides, as well as an arrow pointing
to the building at the rear of the property. The sign is non illuminated. The sign is 5 feet tall, 10 feet wide;
the monument sign will be mounted in the ground with posts.
Department Report, Rachel Boone: Hubler Express is located to the rear of the property—Ritron is to the
front. This particular parcel does not come up to Carmel Drive and the proposed sign is considered off
premise. The petitioner has filed for a variance through the Board of Zoning Appeals—scheduled for
hearing on February 25. The sign is 55 square feet and under the 60 square -foot size allowed by the
Ordinance. Ritron will not be on the sign. The Department is in support of this petition, pending BZA
approval.
Committee Questions /Comments:
Susan Westermeier: What is the Variance requested from BZA? How long has Hubler been at this
location?
Rachel Boone's response: The variance is for an off premise sign; the petitioner states he is in the process
of moving in.
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Susan Westermeier made formal motion to approve Docket No. 08010008 ADLS Amend, Hubler
Express Collision Signage, subject to BZA approval, seconded by Wayne Haney, APPROVED 4 -0.
2. Docket No. 08010012 ADLS Amend: Original Plat of Carmel, Lot 13 Simply Sweet Shoppe
Second Story Playhouse
The applicant seeks approval for building fagade and signage modifications. The site is located at
30 N Range Line Rd and is zoned B-2/Business within the Old Town Overlay, Historic Range Line
Sub area. Filed by Jill Zaniker.
Jill Zaniker appeared before the Committee representing the Sweet Shop, 30 North Range Line Road.
The petitioner would like to make exterior changes to the fagade. The building was formerly occupied
by Missing Pieces. The entry will be moved to the front of the building to make it more pleasing and
welcoming —the former entrance was at the alley.
The Sweet Shop will be on the first floor, the Second Story Playhouse on the second floor is a children's
workshop —art classes and children's theatre production. The petitioner would like to utilize the existing
sign and move it slightly. The three -panel windows in the front are being replaced —they are not period
to the house —and dropping down the upper level windows. This should add to the curb appeal and will
be more aesthetically pleasing.
Re- locating the entrance to the front on Range Line will be better for good traffic flow (foot traffic.) The
back entrance—at the alley —will be a ramp entrance. There will be six dedicated parking spaces. The
petitioner is currently in negotiations for additional spaces reserved for the Arts District.
Department Report, Christine Holmes: The petitioner is planning extensive, exterior remodeling; the
property is within the Old Town Overlay, Historic Range Line sub -area. The windows on the first floor
match the second floor and the Department commends the petitioner for the detail. The front door and
pediments are not in keeping with the period and style of the house —the Department is willing to
work with the petitioner for the overall effect of design and style.
Department Report, Rachel Boone: There are no issues with the sign; the size is actually less than
allowed by Ordinance. The structure will remain the same and that allows the sign face to be easily
"swapped out." The sign will be moved slightly due to the new construction entrance, however it will
not be located in the right -of -way. At this time, the Department is recommending favorable
consideration.
"Woody" Rider asked what the Department would recommend rather than the double doors.
Christine Holmes responded that the double doors do not let in additional light
Jill Janiker said the doors are partly glass and will allow for additional light.
Wayne Haney commented that the change in the windows and the doors was a vast improvement over
the existing and wondered if the building inspector had looked at the plans —two businesses in one
building, one upstairs, one downstairs.
Jill Janiker said that she had walked the entire property with the building inspector, Jim Blanchard, and
he had approved it —he walked the stairs, he has seen the bathrooms, and it has his OK.
Susan Westermeier expressed concern with the number of parking spaces —only 6 spaces to the rear, and
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parking may be an issue.
Jill Janiker responded that she has approval to use the Lions Club Parking Lot plus 12 additional spaces
that are for the Arts District.
Paul Reis, attorney noted that there are 18 spots well- marked for the District —first come first served.
Susan Westermeier made formal motion to approve Docket No. 08010012 ADLS Amend, Original Plat
of Carmel, Lot 13 Simply Sweet Shoppe Second Story Playhouse, seconded by Wayne Haney,
APPROVED 4 -0.
3. Docket No. 08010013 ADLS Amend: Weston Pointe, Outlot 3 Signage
The applicant seeks approval to add the color blue to the sign package and amend the trash
dumpster enclosure. The site is located at 11145 N Michigan Rd. and is zoned B -2 /Business within
the US 421 Overlay. Filed by Dave Gilman of Williams Realty Group.
David Gilman, Williams Realty Group appeared before the Committee representing the property owners.
The property provides for a potential of six tenants. Originally, the petitioner agreed to a color palette of
four; however, the anchor tenant, Reese Kitchens has blue in their sign. At this time, the petitioner would
like the color blue added to the palette of approved sign colors.
This petition has two parts —the color palette and the trash dumpster. The Trash Enclosure gates are being
destroyed by the trash pick -up trucks. The gates are made of wood, anchored to posts on either side.
Rather than trying to make the gates so rigid, the petitioner decided to go with something that has a little
more spring to it, more flexibility. Vinyl chain -link with slats —the vinyl would be black with black slats
attached to steel posts.
The petitioner is willing to commit that all of the gates within Weston Pointe would have the same type of
gates, black vinyl, black slats if they are allowed to make the change.
Department Report, Rachel Boone: The sign colors originally proposed consisted of 6 colors and the
petitioner was asked to limit to 4 colors. The Department is agreeable to the blue color. This petition is
similar to the Goodwill Store, also on Michigan Road. Their sign package only allowed for red and white;
Goodwill returned for a blue sign and it was supported. The Department supports this petition as well.
Department Report, Christine Holmes: Regarding the Trash Enclosure, there are other suggestions that
may be more flexible. Perhaps a full enclosure with a garage door; another possibility would be steel gates
that look like cast iron such as that seen around the MISO building on Carmel Drive -more durable and
more aesthetically pleasing as opposed to chain link.
Committee Comments:
Rick Ripma said he was surprised that Goodwill was allowed to use the blue color.
Susan Westermeier said there was no rhyme or reason to the color palette originally approved; would the
petitioner be willing to substitute the blue in exchange for eliminating one of the approved colors?
Dave Gilman said he would eliminate the yellow in exchange for the blue.
Rick Ripma suggested firing the trash pick -up people and getting someone who could drive the truck and
do the job without damaging the unit. Rick agreed with the Department as far as enclosing the structure
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and putting a roof on it as well as a garage door. Rick was not at all in favor of what the petitioner is
proposing.
David Gilman was not in agreement with a roof and to install a garage door on the trash structure would be
very expensive —the garage door would be ripped off on day two! David had not seen any representation
of the steel doors the Department was recommending. The proposed doors would be easy to maintain and
repair.
"Woody" Rider agreed with the petitioner. Installing a garage door would be an exorbitant cost and
enclosing the structure would be a major smell.
The Committee decided to Table the Trash enclosure portion of this petition to allow the petitioner an
opportunity to work with the Department for an alternative solution before returning to Committee.
Susan Westermeier made formal motion to approve the Signage portion Only of Docket No. 08010013
ADLS Amend, Weston Pointe, Outlot 3 Signage by adding blue to the color palette in exchange for
eliminating the color yellow, thereby keeping 4 colors, and Tabling the Trash enclosure portion of
Docket No. 08010013 ADLS Amend to the March 04 Special Studies Committee meeting, seconded by
Wayne Haney, Approved 4 -0.
4. Docket No. 08010014 ADLS Amend: Assist 2 Sell Signage
The applicant seeks approval for one new ground sign. The site is located at 211 N. Range Line
Rd. It is zoned B-5/Business within the Old Town Overlay.
Filed by J.D. Holly of Assist 2 Sell.
J. D. Holly, 4133 Creekside Drive, New Palestine, broker /owner of Assist 2 Sell appeared before
the Committee seeking approval for a ground sign for a real estate office located at 211 North
Range Line Road.
Department Report, Rachel Boone: The Old Town Overlay allows a 12 square -foot sign
exactly what the proposed sign measures —and fits within the Overlay requirements. There are no
color limitations. The sign is 4 feet tall by 4 feet wide, under the allowable height. The sign will
be set back approximately 11 feet from Range Line Road, out of the right -of -way. The
Department is recommending approval.
Committee Comments:
Sue Westermeier was surprised that there was no color limitation in the Old Town Overlay. The
proposed sign shows several colors.
J.D. Holly responded that the corporate colors are red, yellow, and blue.
Susan Westermeier made formal motion to approve Docket No. 08010014 ADLS Amend:
Assist 2 Sell Signage as presented, seconded by "Woody" Rider, APPROVED 4 -0.
5. Docket No. 08010020 ADLS Amend: Medford Place Retail Center Signage
The applicant seeks approval for one new ground sign. The site is located at 10485 N. Michigan
Rd. It is zoned B-3/Business. Filed by Paul Reis of Bose McKinney and Evans, LLP.
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Paul Reis, attorney, Bose McKinney Evans, 301 Pennsylvania Parkway, Suite 300, and Angie Miller,
McKenna Realty.
The location of the small multi- tenant building is 10485 North Michigan Road. To the east of the building
is a private drive that services the Super Target center to the south as well as the Chase Bank to the north.
The drive goes all the way north to 106' Street. Although the road is a private drive, it takes quite a bit of
internal traffic between 106' Street and 421. This particular building does not have a curb cut on 421;
therefore, all of the traffic uses this private drive for access. Of particular note is the one -way in/one way
out. The intent is to put the ground sign at the entrance coming into the facility and identify the tenants
currently none on the east fagade. The tenants are paying for the sign —they are not buying a custom -made
sign, they are buying a ready -made sign from the sign contractor.
A revised drawing of the signage, as suggested by Rachel Boone, DOCS was circulated to the committee.
The new design eliminates the brick columns. The landscape plan was also circulated.
Paul Reis stated that the petitioner has already received a variance from the Board of Zoning Appeals to
allow for the ground sign adjacent to the private drive and not on a public street.
Department Report, Rachel Boone. The petitioner did receive a variance from BZA for the sign that faces
a private drive. The sign as originally proposed with the larger columns has a sign area that is very small
only eight square feet. The site is allowed up to a 60 square —foot sign. It was suggested that perhaps
without the columns the sign area could be larger. However, as seen this evening, it is only about one
square -foot larger. The Department supports the sign proposal.
Committee Comments:
Susan Westermeier asked whether or not the sign is two- sided. Susan also agreed that the sign should be
larger.
Paul Reis confirmed that the sign is two- sided. The reason the sign is not larger is because it fits between
the two pillars and limited by the construction of the existing sign.
Rick Ripma commented that he drives this route every day and the current sign is not noticeable at all.
Rick Ripma, Susan Westermeier, and "Woody" Rider liked the pillars. Wayne Haney was also in favor of
the sign with the pillars and said it drew your eyes to the sign. The colors of the sign match the red brick.
In response to additional questions, Paul Reis said the sign matches the red brick, it is internally lit, and
will be turned off when the tenants are not open for business.
"Woody" Rider moved for approval of Docket No. 08010020 ADLS Amend, Medford Place Retail
Center Signage with the pillars (original submission) seconded by Susan Westermeier, APPROVED
4 -0.
6. Docket No. 07030035 DP: Pro -Med Lane Holiday Inn
The applicant seeks site plan approval for a proposed full- service hotel. ADLS is under another
docket no. below. The site is located at 136th Street and Pro -Med Lane, and is zoned B-
6/Business within the US 31/Meridian Street Overlay.
Filed by Stacey of DeBoy Land Development Services, Inc.
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Dave Coots, attorney, Coots Henke Wheeler, 255 East Carmel Drive appeared before the Committee
representing the applicant. Also in attendance: Mike DeBoy, DeBoy Land Development Services, and
Sanjay Patel, Mid -West Hospitality.
This docket was initially filed in August, 2007. At that time, there were a number of issues regarding
parking, traffic study, landscaping, and tree preservation as well as the architectural appearance of the
building. The Committee tabled this item. At the November Committee meeting, revised drawings were
submitted to include an underground parking garage in order to alleviate congestion on the site. The lot
coverage was reduced from 65% to 62% with the parking garage and narrowing of the traffic aisles.
The issue of water table can be addressed by Mike DeBoy, DeBoy Engineers. The fall of the land and the
southeast corner of the site provided adequate drainage to drain the perimeter of the basement garage
without having to rely on pumps or anything of that nature.
Regarding the Traffic Study —Steve Fehribach, A F Engineering has submitted a report to the
Department of Community Services. Steve Fehribach has also met with Gary Duncan, Carmel
Engineering. Gary Duncan submitted an analysis of traffic at the site to DOCS. The report states that the
development of this site as proposed versus the development of this site as presently approved as an office
building /professional office building reduces the traffic count /volume /number of cars. The report
concludes that with that reduction, and with the suggestion in the report to add a right turn lane from the
intersection of Old Meridian Street and Smokey Row Road past the intersection of Smokey Row and Pro
Med Lane would assist in alleviating existing traffic congestion at this site. Steve Fehribach also points
out in his report that the traffic was the subject of conversation at the November committee meeting;
turning traffic south bound traffic is still an issue; this project, per Steve Fehribach's numbers, does not
affect that movement. Gary Duncan's email stated that until the State re- designs 136"' Street, Old
Meridian, and US 31, this area will continue to experience high traffic congestion as well as the local
streets.
Gary Duncan concluded his report saying that IF their Dept recommends approval of this proposal, it
would be conditioned upon construction of a short right -turn lane at the intersection of Smokey Row Road
and Old Meridian. The length of the right -turn lane would be worked out between Carmel Engineering
Dept and A F Engineering. The cost of construction of the lane would be credited against the amount
the petitioner is responsible for to the City for purposes of the Thoroughfare Plan compliance.
Additionally, by reason of the 541 feet of frontage on Smokey Row, the petitioner's contribution under the
Thoroughfare Plan would amount to $58,530 and the developer is willing to
Commit that money, minus the cost of the lane expansion to the improvement of the intersection of 136"'
Street, Old Meridian and US 31.
Gary Duncan's email also noted that the construction of the multi -use path across the frontage in
compliance with the Thoroughfare Plan would be limited to the construction of 24 feet. Since there are
pending improvements to US 31, it would be prudent to have the developer contribute the money equal to
the value to construct the improvements in a non reverting Thoroughfare Plan Fund.
The third item for discussion is the architectural design modifications made. Initially, a concern was
expressed regarding the multitude of colors and materials being used. The petitioner has eliminated the
white, boxy pillar look and substituted the same materials used predominantly throughout the building
itself. The Department Report addresses a number of site plan issues and Mike DeBoy would explain.
Mike DeBoy addressed the site plan issues and revisions. There are six comments directed to issues
relating to the site plan. The Engineering staff was waiting for the traffic study in order to complete their
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review. Once Engineering received the information, they had revisions as well which reduced the size of
the parking lot by 20 feet and that affected grading and size of the building. Gary Duncan has not yet
completed his review. As part of that, planning Staff wanted the lanes reduced to 23 feet. The plans were
also forwarded to Scott Brewer, Urban Forester, and he had additional comments and modifications
received last Friday. The modifications are not seen as major, but they do affect grading and utility
connections as well as the dumpster location.
In summary, we are waiting for the traffic study, Engineering comment letters were received on January 8 th
and revisions submitted. Other comments include retaining wall —may affect existing tree roots, although
Scott Brewer agrees it is an acceptable practice in this case; otherwise the 3 to 1 slope would bury the
trees. Revised site plan--comments by Engineering necessitated a lot of changes before submitting
revisions. Mike DeBoy feels that there will be no issue wit the water table, although he has not done nor
seen a geo- technical report. Clay Township has a high water table —this site works very well for this issue
and drains northwest to southeast. Mike DeBoy did not see any issue, providing they are prudent, however
he could not guarantee that.
Regarding the sign, Dave Coots says the sign is green during the day, white at night, and meets the size of
the Sign Ordinance; no variances are required.
Department Report, Christine Holmes. The petitioner is beginning to move forward. The revisions are
under review by the Urban Forester. The Department requests information on the color of the dumpster,
information on mechanical equipment screening. The Department recommends brief discussion and
continuing to the March 04 Committee to allow revisions and additional discussion for items outstanding.
Committee Comments:
Susan Westermeier agreed with the Department's recommendation to continue until revisions can be made
and reviewed. Susan Westermeier asked for clarity on the right turn lane that is to be added.
Dave Coots said the right turn lane would be added to the north side of Smokey Row Road.
Susan Westermeier said she had a huge concern with any development being added to this area that
would add traffic—it is a nightmare for turns headed south onto Smokey Row off Old Meridian. When are
improvements to be made to US 31? And how responsible are they for improvements on Smokey Row and
Old Meridian?
"Woody" Rider thought improvements would be made in 2011. "Woody" was not sure whether the
improvement would be an interchange or overpass?
John Molitor thought probably an interchange because of the hospital at this location
Susan Westermeier said she would like more information at the next meeting and asked the petitioner for
more details showing landscaping, building renderings, building materials, parking, etc.
Rick Ripma asked for the traffic engineer to appear at Committee on March 04 with the petitioner.
Wayne Haney asked if the traffic study was an on -site analysis or results from a previous study
extrapolated for this project.
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Dave Coots referred to a report submitted to the Department that speaks in terms of all counts involving
Pro -Med Drive were conducted in November, 2007; counts collected on 136"' Street and Old Meridian
were conducted in 2005 and results projected to 2007 using a 3% per year growth rate.
Susan Westermeier made formal motion to continue Docket No. 07030035 DP, Pro -Med Lane
Holiday Inn and Docket No. 07070009 ADLS Holiday Inn at Pro -Med Lane to the March 04
committee meeting, seconded by "Woody" Rider, APPROVED 4 -0.
7. Docket No. 07070009 ADLS: Holiday Inn at Pro Med Ln
The applicant seeks architecture /design approval for a proposed full- service hotel. The site is
located at 136"' Street and Pro Med Lane, and is zoned B6, within the US 3I/Meridian Street
Overlay. Filed by Dave Coots of Coots, Hke Wheeler for Midwest Hospitality Group, Inc.
See Previous Docket Comments
8. Docket No. 07070003 Z: 146th Gray Rezone (146th St Office Complex)
The applicant seeks approval to rezone 11.6 acres from S -1 /Residence to B- I/Business
for an office /retail development. The site is located at the southeast corner of 146"' St. and
Gray Rd. Filed by Kelli Lawrence of Hearthview Residential, LLC.
TABLED TO March 04, 2008
9. Docket No. 07070004 PP: 146th St Office Complex
The applicant seeks primary plat approval for 5 lots on 11.6 acres. The site is located at the
southeast corner of 146"' St. and Gray Rd. and is zoned S -1 /Residence, pending a B -1/
Business rezone. Filed by Kelli Lawrence of Hearthview Residential, LLC.
TABLED TO March 04, 2008
There was not further business to come before the Committee; the meeting adjourned at 7:15 PM.
Rick Ripma, Chairperson
Ramona Hancock, Secretary
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