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CARMEL PLAN COMMISSION
SUBDIVISION COMMITTEE MINUTES
TUESDAY, JANUARY 8, 2008
LOCATION: CAUCUS ROOMS TIME: 6:00 P.M.
CARMEL CITY HALL
ONE CIVIC SQUARE
CARMEL, IN 46032
DOORS OPEN AT 5:30 P.M.
Representing the Committee
Rick Ripma, Chairperson
Jay Dorman
Carol Schleif
Representing the Department
Angie Conn
Lisa Stewart
Of Counsel:
John Molitor
Rick Ripma, Chairman called the meeting to order at 6:00 p.m.
Mr. Ripma reviewed the Docket Items for the meeting.
The Subdivision Committee will meet to consider the following items:
Docket No. 07100032 PP: Woodhall Subdivision
The applicant seeks primary plat approval for 9 lots on 11.58 acres. Also, subdivision waivers requested
are:
Docket No. 07100033 SW SCO 6.03.20 private street
Docket No. 07100034 SW SCO 6.03.03 6.04.04 stub streets to adjacent parcels Docket No.
07100035 SW SCO 6 .03.07 cul -de -sac length exceeds 600 -ft Docket No. 07100036 SW SCO
6.03.26.4 gate location no bus pickup area
The site is located on 106th St. east of Towne Rd. and is zoned S -1 /Residence.
Filed by Joe Calderon of Bose McKinney Evans, LLP.
Joe Calderon of Bose McKinney Evans presented for the petitioner. He was accompanied by Jeff Cohen
of J.B. Cohen Realty Corp., Randy Marra, of Tramco, Lance Ferrell of Banning Engineering and Mark
Zukerman of MZA, Inc.
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Plan Commission Subdivision Committee Minutes
Mr. Calderon began by reviewing the project. This will be an ultra luxury, single family development, with
low maintenance, and private, similar to Laurel Ridge. Density is in compliance with the S I requirements.
A number of perspective home buyers have indicated that they like the idea of an ultra luxury
subdivision, but they do not want multi -acre lots. This property is little less than 12 acres and we are
proposing a 9 lot subdivision. The idea of this subdivision is to have a significant amount of preserved tree
area, which abuts Windemere on the east end and will have smaller lots due to the fact that this will be a
low to no maintenance community. Most likely this property will attract snow birds, and/or folks that want
to pay a fee to have all types of home maintenance taken care o£ The idea is to create a mini Laurel Ridge
and most of the waivers that they are requesting pertain to the fact that we propose this to be a private
community. The petitioners are well -aware of the gate standards, since they were drafted in response to
what was done at Laurel Ridge and we comply with all of the requirements with the exception of a bus stop
area. From street view, the subdivision will not even start until 500 ft. back from the subdivision. No one
will see much of anything; this will be a large common area with a proposed large pond. The gate will be
at the back, so you can have a turnaround for folks that make a mistake.
The petitioner is aware that since the area is not officially annexed they do have to go through the county
for some approvals.
They have taken some steps, i.e., moving the entry farther to the east and believe they will have to go to the
County Commissioners and get similar waivers regarding the private streets. The do not anticipate any
problems. In regard to public safety standpoint, the roadway has been designed to accommodate
turnaround for emergency vehicles all the way back.
The petitioner is not proposing connectivity with other parcels that are existing improved parcels that lay to
the south and to the east including the current owner. The petitioner does not see any reason to have stub
streets to those parcels and with Windemere developed to the east and with the tree preservation there is no
opportunity for connectivity there.
Angie Conn, DOCS, the Department recommends that the petitioner review the outstanding concerns and
address them and if the Committee is comfortable after the discussion move this to the full Plan
Commission on January 24 She then began a review of Department concerns.
Angie began the conversation with information needed by Scott Brewer DOCS.
The petitioner did submit a landscape plan to Scott Brewer, DOCS before the holidays, but have not heard
back from him. They expect to have Scott's comments in a timely fashion so that any plan revisions will
be made prior to the Plan Commission meeting.
Lance Ferrell, Banning Engineering spoke regarding issues with the County Highway Department. Due to
a TAC comment letter from the Highway Department indicating a problem with the entrance, we reviewed
the logistics and determined that it was in the best interest of everyone to move the entrance as far to the
east as we could and still provide the egress lane that is proposed. At the TAC meeting the petitioners
indicated to the Highway Department Representative that they would correct the problem.
Provide an update on the County Surveyor's Office approval status. At the TAC meeting, there was some
concern about driveway encroachments in to easements. Also, there should not be plantings within the
drainage easements that run along the residential lots.
Joe indicated that the petitioners feel they are in compliance with meeting the requirements with the
exception of there may be one easement that runs on a common lot line that could have a driveway
encroachment. Since they only have proposed lot lines it is not clear of any encroachment.
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Plan Commission Subdivision Committee Minutes
Lance reviewed on a handout where the possible problem may be between lots 3 4. He discussed
possible resolutions including driveway placement, etc. As developers they will have the latitude to make
sure the plans are done correctly.
Rick Ripma stated he would like to see a commitment that driveways will not encroach on easements. The
petitioners agreed to include this in their covenants.
Carol Schleif asked if the petitioner will utilize any of the Draft Residential Architectural Design
Guidelines.
Joe Calderon stated that only one or two custom home builders will be building in this subdivision,
however, no decision has been made yet on builders. After speaking with some folks who may be interested
in this type of subdivision, the petitioners know they will have to attract the right type of builders.
Joe indicated they do not have elevations of the homes as yet. Covenants indicate the minimum sq. ft.
finished living area is 3250 sq. ft. also a stone and brick masonry exterior for all homes. As for some of the
other standards in the draft, he is confident they will meet or exceed all of them. He indicated that the price
point for this subdivision is $1.4 $2.5 million.
Jay Dorman asked Angie if covenants were enough or did the Department require drawings, etc. Angie
stated that drawings are not required.
Discussion regarding what is a custom home builder is Rick would like to define custom builder. Angie
will research standards and inform the Committee.
Carol Schleif then moved the discussion to drainage issues. She indicated she had discussed the drainage
issue with Greg Hoyes Hamilton County Surveyor's Office, and asked him to take a look at the area.
Carol stated that Greg is in agreement with her regarding the problem. She indicated that she does not
expect the petitioner's to take care of Windemere's property; however, it looks like to her that issue lies
with Woodhall.
Lance Ferrell reviewed the areas being discussed on a visual. He indicated that he also had spoken with
Greg and they would be correcting drainage issues on all of the area with the exception of about 100 ft.
Carol stated that still leaves a lot of sq. footage, and she wants Greg, Lance, Scott Brewer and herself to
walk the property and see what is there and also have Scott there to direct them on tree preservation.
Rick Ripma stated that it looked like the petitioners had resolved the problem. Carol indicated in her
opinion it did not
Lance stated that when they are done with the subdivision this 100 ft. will be the only part left not graded,
everything else will be taken care o£ The watershed will be %4 of what it is today
Carol indicated on the visual the area she was most interested in and indicated that it all drains into her
neighborhood. Carol stated that Greg Hoyes agrees with her this is not enough. She indicated the
petitioner's property is draining into Windemere. There is standing water there and this can create a public
health problem, i.e., mosquitoes and Carol indicated the Health Department could come and site them.
Mark Zukerman indicated that their plan picks up lots 5 thru 9 and would effectively take that 12 acres and
make it about 2 acres, that would be undisturbed, in his opinion this should be enough. Mark is willing to
run some calculations, but is confident this will resolve the issue.
Carol stated that she cannot support this plan, because she gets the phone calls from the Windemere
homeowners. She does like other areas of the project; however, she is sure there is a simple resolution to
the drainage problem.
Lance stated that what they are going to do. The area that will be left will be very small and does meet the
existing 10 year rain event requirements.
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Plan Commission Subdivision Committee Minutes
Lance stated that the existing ten year storm requirements is what Greg will hold us to. Carol stated that
they had a 100 year event less than 5 years ago and she has spent more than 2 years with attorneys trying
to solve that issue. Carol stressed the answer is to make this right at the beginning of the process.
Mark stated they had envisioned an English garden and walking trails for the residents and we have made a
substantial commitment to the owner of the property, Mr. Wilson to leave this area totally untouched
except for the path and to add some additional trees. She agreed that it is some expense to add a swale, etc.
Mark stated it is not about expense it is about the ambiance of the park.
Lance Ferrell asked if there was water at Carol's site after a rain event, she indicated yes. Lance asked if it
stayed more than a day Carol indicated yes.
Lance then stated that it appears to him that this is a Windemere drainage issue, that after a rain event if
the water stays, that is because it cannot go through the Windemere's pipe system.
Lengthy discussion continued.
Jay Dorman stated he feels strongly that if Scott Brewer has not issued a definitive letter of agreement of
the landscape plan in sufficient time before the Committee meeting it will stop and it will not be forwarded.
Jay asked Angie to have Scott be very specific in what he wants from the petitioner and the timeline.
Carol Schleif asked what LEED processes will be used in this project. Mark stated that if builders wished
to use LEED standards they would have no issue with it
Fences were reviewed. We want consistence on any perimeter, abutting fences. The Committee would like
to see black, wrought iron fences on the perimeter. However, shadow box fences could be used to block in
air conditioners, pool equipment, etc.
Joe Calderon then discussed the Committee's request for calculations that the cul -de -sac will be large
enough to accommodate full size moving vans and fire truck with ladder. Lance displayed on a visual that
in fact the cul -de -sac does meet these requirements.
Joe then went on to discuss the gate detail. The gate will be an 8 ft. high wall, made from stone and iron
with wooden frame.
Rick Ripma stated that the visual indicates there are doors at the gate and it does not look like it is open for
pedestrians to walk through.
Mark stated that this is similar to the one at Laurel Ridge where the gate is accessed by a keypad. Rick
stated that Laurel Ridge had bee directed to make the path accessible for pedestrians and bicyclers and the
Committee has been requiring other projects to have pathways open for public access per the Alternative
Transportation Plan.
The Committee and petitioner further discussed this issue and the Committee then directed the Department
to further research the agreements made for Laurel Ridge and communicate back to the Committee.
Sidewalks were also discussed and further investigation with the Alternative Transportation Coordinator
will be sought. The petitioners are agreeable to meeting any ordinance requirement.
The Committee discussed a bus stop pick up area. The Committee will waive the bus stop requirement.
It was determined that until the drainage issue is resolved, this Docket Item cannot be moved forward to the
Plan Commission. Carol will schedule a site visit with all interested parties.
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Plan Commission Subdivision Committee Minutes
The Petitioners requested a continuance to the February 5 meeting.
Jay Dorman made a motion to adjourn the meeting.
Carol Schleif seconded the motion.
Approved 3 -0
The meeting adjourned at 7:40 p.m.
Rick Ripma, Chairperson Lisa Stewart
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