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HomeMy WebLinkAboutMinutes Sub 08-05-08of CA �VNONE y�A C i t y RTOMORROW o /NDIMAN CARMEL PLAN COMMISSION SUBDIVISION COMMITTEE MEETING MINUTES TUESDAY, AUGUST 5, 2008 LOCATION: CAUCUS ROOMS, 2 nd FLR TIME: 6:00 P.M. CARMEL CITY HALL (DOORS OPEN AT 5:30 P.M.) ONE CIVIC SQUARE CARMEL, IN 46032 Representing the Committee Carol Schleif, Chairperson Jay Dorman Dan Dutcher Brad Grabow Steve Stromquist Representing the Department Mike Hollibaugh Angie Conn Alexia Donahue Wold Of Counsel: John Molitor The Subdivision Committee will meet to consider the following items: The Subdivision Committee will meet to consider the following items: 1. Docket No. 08050024 PP Amend: Stafford Lane The applicant seeks primary plat amendment approval for 53 lots on 30 acres. The site is located along 146"' St., west of Gray Rd., and is zoned RI/Residence ROSO. Filed by Eric Batt of Schneider Engineering for The Drees Company. Steve Hardin of Baker Daniels presented. He was accompanied by Eric Batt, Schnieder Engineering and John Wait of the Drees Company. Steve distributed a comparison of the Primary Plat and the Amended Primary Plat. The amended primary plat has been submitted to Engineering and they have been working with the County Highway, and the County is now satisfied with the accel/decel lanes. This will be a right in/right out only. As part of the discussions with the County ONE CIVIC SQUARE CARMEL, INDIANA 46032 317/571 -2417 August 5, 2008 Plan Commission Subdivision Committee Minutes was that the median cut be filled in. The County Commissioners have approved this as well on July 28 Landscape plans have been worked out the Urban Forester, the forester had asked that Drees landscape consultants add notation that if any trees along the buffer need to come out due to drainage or easements, that these will be replaced according to the City's ordinances. At the previous Plan Commission meeting questions were raised regarding water and sewer. Steve stated that water lines are on 146"' street on the south side, and they will be tapping into existing waterlines. The sanitary sewer will be accessed from a manhole in the Wedgwood Subdivision, this manhole was specifically placed there to allow for future development to connect into it. Steve directed the Committee to look at the sewer line outlined on the plans. He state that there will be an easement that runs to the east of the property and it connects into the existing manhole that is in an existing easement as well. Steve stated that Mr. Trancik had attended the Plan Commission meeting and had expressed concerns that we were proposing to connect into his lateral that is also going into the same manhole and Drees assured him at the time they are not planning to connect into his line, we are confirming that again, we are connecting out of the same manhole that he connects into. Angie Conn, DOCS All outstanding concerns have been addressed. The Committee tonight has been granted the authority to cast the final vote and so the Department recommends that you approve this item. Jay Dorman stated that although this is not an open hearing, he has noted that Mr. Trancik wishes to speak and he has requested that the Chair allow a motion to suspend the rules to allow him to do that. Steve Stromquist made a motion to suspend the rules, Jay Dorman seconded. Approved 5 -0 Tom Trancik indicated he had spoken with Steve Dillinger, and Mr. Dillinger stated that the entrance had not been approved. That access from 146"' street would be for construction purposes only. He also stated that there had been no defmite plan presented to the County. The petitioner has been before the Commissioners, but not with a defmite plan. The petitioner's statement is contradictory to what Mr. Dillinger indicated to Mr. Trancik. Mr. Trancik stated it is important to remember that there have been 2 deaths within a very short distance of this entrance way. Two people have also been crippled. Mr. Trancik showed a picture that he had taken showing an obstruction behind trees, a wall. This wall is going to obstruct all sorts of traffic from seeing the ingress /egress of the traffic here. He has been told by County officials that the wall would not be allowed under current guidelines because of the obstruction. Carol Schleif asked if the curb cut that had been approved two years had changed. Tom stated that at the July 28"' meeting it was stated that those plans had been withdrawn. Angie stated that she had received an email from the County Highway Department today at noon and they indicated that at the last Board meeting they did approve the right in/right out. Brad Grabow asked what the time limit is on one of our approvals. John Molitor responded that primary plats do not expire, building permits do expire. Jay Dorman stated that the other issue brought up by Mr. Trancik was the easement across his property for the sewer. 2 ONE CIVIC SQUARE CARMEL, INDIANA 46032 317/571 -2417 August 5, 2008 Plan Commission Subdivision Committee Minutes Carol stated she had looked at where the sewer is coming from and it is actually (she showed on a visual.) She stated that Mr. Trancik's property is the next parcel up. She illustrated on the visual how the system was coming into the subdivision through the Koven property. Carol stated she feels that the sewer is ok. Steve Hardin stated that the County had not signed off on any drawings. They have a requirement now that you appear before them to request approval of your entrance. We now have the approval for the right in/right out. Once that is done, you submit your final plans, just like construction plans. John Acceturo, City Councilor stated he represents the 3r District which includes 146 Street. He also has spoken with the County Highway Department on Friday. They are still reviewing plans sent to them. Additionally, they identified certain right -of -ways will have to be obtained from Salisbury Landscaping to make the right out, and they indicated to him that they did not have anything in their hands, showing any contractual agreements that had been made in solidifying in regards to obtaining the right of way to do this right out. He stated that his real concern is safety issues on 146 street. He stated he know that the County approves whether or not they can exit there, but the City of Carmel and the Plan Commission should they go ahead and approve this then obviously John Molitor state that since it seems that there is some controversy regarding this project perhaps it should be returned to the full Plan Commission. Carol Schleif stated she wanted to resolve this at the Subdivision level. She asked if we could approve the project with the stipulation that it must receive County approval. Dan Dutcher asked for clarification on what's in front of the Committee. He went on to state that it is to amend the plat as depicted on the drawings, he recognizes there may be issues as it relates to egress access, but those issues relate to the original plan that was approved, the only issue we are being asked to vote on is whether the primary plat should be amended. He asked John Molitor that this is the case and if we move forward to approve the amendment it doesn't mean we approve or disapprove of the other issues. Those follow a separate parallel track. John Molitor state that this is correct, we don't have the authority to approve or deny a curb cut on 146' street. Our approval does not mean that the County is obligated to actually grant it. Jay Dorman made a motion to approve Docket No. 08050024 PP Amend: Stafford Lane with condition that the petitioner obtains County approval for egress right in/right out on 146 Street. Dan Dutcher seconded the motion. Approved 5 -0 2. Docket No. 07010008 Z: 116 Guilford Rezone The applicant seeks to rezone approximately 9.5 acres from I -1 /Industrial to R -1 /Residence. The site is located at 1441 S. Guilford Rd. Filed by the Carmel Dept. of Community Services on behalf of the Carmel Plan Commission. 3. Docket No. 08060009 Z: 116th Guilford Rezone The applicant seeks to approval to rezone approximately 9.5 acres from the I -1 /Industrial zoning classification to PUD /Planned Unit Development. The site is located at the northeast corner of ONE CIVIC SQUARE CARMEL, INDIANA 46032 317/571 -2417 August 5, 2008 Plan Commission Subdivision Committee Minutes 116"' St Guilford Rd. Filed by the Carmel Department of Community Services, on behalf of the Carmel Plan Commission. 4. Docket No. 08060010 OA: Park Place PUD Ordinance Amendment The applicant seeks approval to amend Ordinance Z- 500 -06: Park Place Planned Unit Development in order to include 2 parcels at the northeast corner of 116 St Guilford Rd. and to amend/add text to regulate the newly added parcels to this development. The subject parcels are zoned PUD I -1. Filed by the Department of Community Services, on behalf of the Carmel Plan Commission. Mike Hollibaugh presented. The essence of what we are trying to do is rezone the Duke Energy building to address concerns and issues that the City has related to potential uses in the future and but still allow Duke Energy the ability to utilize their land in a way that is consistent with the way the property is zoned today and well as to allow them some room for uses in the future that does not undermine the concerns that the City has. Those are concerns that he has tried to be consistent and express that we are not trying to shut Duke Energy completely down in regards to the sale of their property, but we do not want to allow future retail in that area simply because the City does not feel it is a benefit to the City. We have a lot of square footage for retail that is approved in very close proximity and in the near vicinity. That includes the project at Guilford and 116 and I I6 and College, the Equicor projects, we have Merchants' Square and Merchants' Point none of which are thriving. Additional retail in the area will further undermine these areas. The request to adjust the PUD is really intended to be a marriage of convenience. It will allow the City to make the adjustments in use and give us the ultimate ability to create a zoning classification to meet out needs and doesn't require us to fit a square peg in a round hole. Our request if very simple, office uses for that ground only. Jay Dorman stated he heard the word retail mentioned many times, is retail the crux of the issue that the City has the most issue with. Mike stated that the uses that they put out would be is what we would like to see there. It is in the PUD. Jay went on to say he is trying to look at both sides of this issue. Jay stated perhaps this could go before the Redevelopment Commission, why isn't this case going before the Redevelopment Commission? He then stated a couple of other of potential things that could occur. One, might be, if we are taking away some use of the property some remuneration to offset the degraded value might occur from the Redevelopment Commission. The Redevelopment Commission could potentially negotiate with Duke for some amount and purchase that property and do whatever they want with it based upon appraisals. He is struggling as to why this is not a done deal. Mike Hollibaugh responded it is not a done deal because we have a proposal that we are trying to push and the Plan Commission is trying to compromise. This is one time that we do not want to compromise and it is not a Redevelopment proposal because, just because they are not involved in it. It is something that the Mayor asked us to rezone and this goes back to 2007. We are hoping ultimately that you will agree with us. Bill Wendling, of Campbell, Kyle and Profitt responded. He is accompanied by John Shidler, General Counselor for Duke and also Dee Dee Ashpaugh who is their property manager. 4 ONE CIVIC SQUARE CARMEL, INDIANA 46032 317/571 -2417 August 5, 2008 Plan Commission Subdivision Committee Minutes He stated that he felt awkward being a bit combative with Mike. However, when we had this property in 1981 there was nothing around it (Bill distributed a handout.) We had an I1 classification which allowed for retail and it does come down to retail. Mike and the Mayor have been generous in trying to work with us. We are not willing to drop that part of the I1 classification for retail. He asked how the City can designate itself as the expert on retail as to what is good retail or bad retail. He stated that Duke had the I1 retail classification for a long time. Equicor had to come to the City and ask to be allowed to do the retail. There were notices and public meetings. You did not see Duke Energy coming and remonstrating against that. If Duke Energy would have know theirs would be taken away, that is not the function of our government is gets to do retail and who doesn't and when someone does have it, where does that make any sense. Bill distributed a handout listing the items they have eliminated from the uses. Carol asked what it was zoned prior to I1. Bill responded probably agriculture. The City asked for the change I1. This was to approve the operations that were being done there, i.e. service trucks and supplies, etc. Carol stated that they had addressed their own issue of industrial buildings and shielding them. Even though we have been through this twice now and four of the industrial uses we are ok with. A lot of what you are discussing and the City is talking about is the appearance of what's there be compatible with everything else. Bill interjected that he disagreed with her. It has been clearly stated by Mike that the issues is retail and it is not the development of the building, it has been purely been an issue of will you permit us to maintain retail. We have cut out any number of other issues. It is the City's desire to control retail and that is something that we are not prepared to give up. So the issue is totally retail. Carol reviewed acceptable uses. Carol stated that this has been reviewed multiple times. Jay stated that the City wants no retail. He suggested getting an appraisal the way it is now and getting an appraisal with the items they are willing to give up and the City pays the difference and we are done. We are diminishing the value of their property. Mike asked what we would pay for. Jay went on to say, that if this was mine, I would be more aggressive; I would be suing you and would be so irate. If I had a property that I could do what I wanted with and now you are saying that I can't, then pay me for it. If you want to restrict my rights then quantify it and pay me the value. Mike stated that what the City is doing is not illegal. The Courts have ruled in our favor previously. Their value is not $0. They have land use options today and they have land use options tomorrow that are viable. Bill stated that the property is for sale and there is a distinct value that is being eliminated from their use and again why does everyone else get to come here in 2000 or say we want to do retail and by the way you have had it since 1981 but you don't get to do retail. What is the theory behind that? Jay stated that if they sell it we may have a challenge with a new buyer in the future. Carol asked about the data center. It is still on the table. Mike stated that does not resolve it. Our proposal is to rezone it to the PUD with a limited amount of uses. Bill asked if that happens why the data center would pay us the money we are asking, since even though we have a full pie now and we are selling them that, however, if this committee determines that the data company can buy this property, they are then going to come and say they will not pay us this much. ONE CIVIC SQUARE CARMEL, INDIANA 46032 317/571 -2417 August 5, 2008 Plan Commission Subdivision Committee Minutes Carol Schleif it sounds like the I1 had nothing to do with retail, but rather with the fact that there were trucks on site Dan Dutcher stated that this is the third time he has sat through this discussion. He stated that the most compelling argument is that after retailing has been permitted in the adjoining properties, we are now talking about taking retail off the table for this property. From his perspective that is a tough go to ask them. The alternative to him is looking at limits to the uses. It would easier decision for him if it was not such a hodgepodge to begin with in that neighborhood. If there was a clear dividing line between where retail should be and where it should not, it would be easier to decide if retail should be allowed on this property. The fact that retail has historically been permitted there and the fact that we have added retail in that area, it is a pretty compelling argument suggests that what we might be better off brokering an alternate reasonable approach rather than taking retail off the table. Carol went through all zones to see how many uses were allowed in al the zones. We were allowing 26 different uses. The other zones are anywhere from 30 to 70. Bill stated that there hasn't been any definitive answer, which is the problem. Discussion followed reviewing previous meetings. Again, it all comes down to retail. Mike stated that when the I1 was approved back in the early 1980's it was not with retail in mind Discussion ensured as to whether it is reasonable to take away retail, when retail is across the street, keeping in mind what is going on economically now it may not be feasible, but should this Committee be deciding this issue. Even though we are changing the zoning today, does not prevent them from returning asking for another rezoning. Mike stated we are trying to fine tune our retail mix. Brad stated that this problem is partially the fault of the city who gave Equicor the ability to have retail. He went on to say that by taking the retail use away from Duke is goal that he can see, but this means bringing an economic loss to Duke. Jay is ready to accept the proposal of Duke as an amendment to the Park Place PUD for permitted uses and send it forward and let them vote on it at City Council. Or provide some economic incentive to get this property redeveloped the way it should. Carol stated we need to get this done. Jay agreed and stated we need to come to a final recommendation to the City Council Uses were reviewed: Educational uses trade school ok General Retail Sales definition reviewed ok Enclosed lumberyard ok Equipment sales ok Banks, Financial Institutions, ATMS ok Funeral home ok Veterinary hospital ok Wholesale sales only if enclosed ok 6 ONE CIVIC SQUARE CARMEL, INDIANA 46032 317/571 -2417 August 5, 2008 Plan Commission Subdivision Committee Minutes Art and Music center only if enclosed ok Hotels no Restaurant without drive through ok Party Hall ok Museum -ok Light Industrial definition reviewed ok Personal general service definition reviewed ok Temporary uses ok Cell Towers no Jay Dorman made a motion to approve Docket 07010008Z 116"' and Guildford rezone, from I1 to R1 Steve Stromquist seconded the motion. 0 Approve 5 Opposed (Schleif, Stromquist Dorman, Grabow, Dutcher) Brad Grabow made a motion to send Docket 07010008Z to the full Plan Commission with an Unfavorable Recommendation Jay Dorman seconded the motion. Approved 5 -0 Dan Dutcher made a motion to send 08060009 be sent to the Plan Commission that the I1 zoning be replaced with a PUD. Jay Dorman seconded the motion Approved 5 -0 Dan Dutcher made a motion for Docket 08060010 OA Ordinance Amendment to recommend to the full Plan Commission that the contents of the PUD developed consistent with the recommended uses as amended by the Subdivision Committee at this meeting, held on August 5, 2008. Steve Stromquist seconded the motion. 4 Approved 1 Opposed (Schleif) Jay Dorman made a motion to adjourn. Dan Dutcher seconded the motion Meeting adjourned at 7:30 p.m. Carol Schleif, Chairperson Lisa Stewart File: SUB- 2008- 0805.doc 7 ONE CIVIC SQUARE CARMEL, INDIANA 46032 317/571 -2417