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City of Carmel
CARMEL PLAN COMMISSION
TUESDAY, JUNE 15 2010
City Hall Council Chambers, 2 °d Floor
One Civic Square
Carmel IN 46032
6:00 PM
Members Present:
Members Absent:
Leo Dierckman, Jay Dorman, Brad Grabow, Judy Hagan, Heather Irizarry,
Nick Kestner, Kevin "Woody" Rider, Rick Ripma, Steve Stromquist,
Susan Westermeier
Madeleine Torres
Also Present: Ramona Hancock, Plan Commission Secretary
Hugh Cooper, Veteran of the Korean War, led the Plan Commission in the Pledge of Allegiance
Minutes of the May 18, 2010 meeting were approved as submitted.
Legal Counsel Report, John Molitor: One pending case involving the Johnson Acres Garage—deposition
scheduled for Thursday morning. An Executive Session may be necessary for next month, but will wait and see.
Nothing has happened in the last month.
Department Announcements, Angie Conn: The last item under Old Business, Appendix A Amendment, Docket No.
10050001 OA, has been Tabled to the July 20, 2010 meeting.
H. Public Hearings
1. Docket No. 10040004 Z: Howard House, Inc. Rezone (Orin Jessup Land Company's
1 Addition, lots 142(pt) -144). The applicant seeks approval to rezone 0.31 acres at
10620 Bellefontaine St., from the R- 3/Residence to the B- 7/Business Zoning Classification,
within the Home Place Business District Overlay. Filed by Barker Law Offices, on behalf of
Howard House, Inc.
Present for Petitioner: David Barker, Barker Law Offices, 650 North Range Line Road, Carmel. Also present:
Dan Mattingly, property owner of 10620 Bellefontaine Street.
Overview:
Howard House in Home Place owned by Dan and Liz Mattingly since the year 2000
Howard House is comprised of three (3) parcels —will transition down to one (1) parcel and will
happen with the Rezone
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Currently, Howard House houses Mattingly Construction Concrete
Mr. Mrs. Mattingly's son lives in the property and is a tenant
Petitioner has received positive comments from adjacent homeowners as well as staff
Public Remonstrance: None
Department Report/Comments, Angie Conn:
Rezone falls in line with Purpose Intent of Home Place Overlay as well as Comprehensive Plan
Recommend Plan Commission Suspend its Rules of Procedure and vote this evemng
Dept recommends forwarding to City Council with a positive recommendation
Commission Comments /Questions:
"Logical action"
Mattingly business has been well maintained since moving into the area
Gravel or concrete in yard? (Gravel)
Any underground storage tanks? (No)
Any issues with IDEM? (No)
Dan Mattingly, owner of Howard House, Comments:
Wanted to keep the name "Howard House" after Don Howard who built the house —one of the oldest homes in
Home Place
Motion: "Woody" Rider "To suspend the Rules of Procedure," seconded by Heather Irizarry, approved 10 -0
Motion: "Woody" Rider "To forward Docket No. 10040004 Z, Howard House, Inc. Rezone (Orin Jessup Land
Company's 1' Addition, lots 142 (pt -144) to the City Council with a positive recommendation." Motion
seconded by Rick Ripma, approved 10 -0.
2. Docket No. 10040009 DP /ADLS: Turkey Hill Minit Markets.
The applicant seeks site plan and design approval for a mixed use building with office,
retail, and fuel station uses. It is located at the northeast corner of Range Line Rd. Carmel
Dr. (former Pizza Hut site). The site is zoned B- 8/Business and lies within the Carmel Dr.
Range Line Rd. Overlay. Filed by Steve Fuller of TH Midwest Inc.
Present for Petitioner: Jon Dobosiewicz, Land Use Professional with Nelson a Frankenberger. Also present:
Steve Fuller, TH Midwest, Inc.; Jim Shinaver, attorney, Nelson and Frankenberger; other members of the
development team.
Overview:
Request approval to redevelop site at Range Line Road Carmel Drive
Request office, retail, and fuel station uses
Proposal would replace existing building with a multi -tenant building and fuel center
Also requesting developmental standards variances from BZA— signs, occupancy less than 70%
of the frontage, and a reduction in floor area ratio "FAR
Proposed building pulled up to Range Line Rd along right -of -way Carmel Drive
Parking will be north and east of proposed building as well as the fuel center canopy behind front
building line
Parking screened from Range Line Road by the two -story building
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Existing driveway cut on Range Line Road will be eliminated
Access to site from north would be under cross access easement with Kroger
Design of building is culmination of design team and City staff
Proposed building significantly different from franchise architects typically implemented by Turkey Hill
in its developments
Building is two stories 2 "d floor approximately 2,000 sq ft; first floor approximately 4,000 sq ft
Windows are all clear vision glass windows except for spandrel glass
Behind spandrel glass is functional purpose, therefore not visible
Proposed building meets and exceeds architectural requirements
Input solicited from Redevelopment Director
Building design is unique for Turkey Hill
Building design provides exceptional example of plan that accommodates proposed use (fuel center and
multi- tenants) and also respectful of urban design goals for the area
Proposed building is dramatic change and will transform this corner significantly
Public Remonstrance, General, Unfavorable:
Jeff Watkins, 234 West Main Street, Carmel, "Just cannot envision this use for this corner."
Rebuttal, Jon Dobosiewicz:
Not requesting use approval from Plan Commission
Proposal is a permitted use on the property
Petitioner has developed a plan with Staff and City for both building and site plan that accommodates
this permitted use
Building and site plan are felt to be aesthetically pleasing and beneficial to community
Site is eligible zoning for fuel center
Dept Report, Angie Conn:
Staff recommends sending this item to July 06 Special Studies Committee for r4eview
Staff requests that Commission grant final voting authority to Committee
Minor drainage issues on site —can be worked out
Commission Questions and Comments:
Dept Report/Engineer's Comments refer to a roundabout at this location
Curious as to what staff envisions as a roundabout to help mitigate traffic challenges this investment
might have (Dept says it is a good discussion point for Committee —Dept will ask that questions of
Engineering)
Was Kroger's approval years ago predicated on a right in off Range Line Road and right out of Kroger
site at access close to former Pizza Hut site? Perhaps we should re -visit and look at this anew
Will discuss limiting access at Committee
Question regarding "Lift" noted on drawings
Bicycle Parking?
Building seems to be "plain" relative to building to the south in terms of detail
What is size, material, texture of awnings and could they also be put on second story for more definition?
Are roof -top mechanicals in full view?
Lighting —huge poles necessary?
Recycling bins on site?
Access point on Carmel Drive within 100 feet into the median from roundabout sounds tricky to
maneuver as cars come off Range Line Road and cars trying to turn left as well as cars flowing north and
south coming out of gas station Traffic Flow is a huge issue
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Signage —there are a lot of signs committee should keep sign package separate from architectural
details of the building; also hope that commitment could be made by petitioner not to have signage on the
windows as was done with CVS
Request no signage or ads on patio umbrellas
Architecturally or design wise, the LED lighting does not seem to fit the proposed fixtures
Request Committee NOT be given final authority for approval vote
Any other Turkey Hill Markets within close proximity?
Request aerial view of area to review for traffic —left turns a nightmare —hours of operation?
Parking behind pumps? Tenants in building?
Any locations in Carmel that display type of lighting proposed?
Dept may want to check with Police Dept to see if any problems/high accidents occur with left turns at
Shell Station due to its similar format
If roundabout is built at this intersection, wouldn't the median be built far enough that it would force
traffic to use the roundabout to travel east on Carmel Drive? (Yes)
If roundabout is built, there is no issue
Building is totally unattractive —does not meet what was required of the Fineberg building
Building is boring and makes no statement at all
This is a major corner —what are the review guidelines utilized?
Was Les Olds' firm paid any fees to review design or involved in any way?
If we are going in different direction than the Plan Commission has directed, we need not "beat them up"
with a bunch of variances
Response, Jon Dobosiewicz:
Current Thoroughfare Plan does not identify a roundabout at this intersection
Additional discussion by the City regarding a roundabout
City wanted to make certain that proposed plan could accommodate a roundabout if constructed in future
Proposed site plan identifies parameters under which City would construct a roundabout
Proposed bldg on site plan shifted north so that all physical improvements would lie outside proposed
right -of -way
Access along both Carmel Drive and Range Line Road has been discussed with Engineering
Individual driveway cut would be beyond the separator
Because of accommodating right -of -way, City would construct a "left -turn lane" into the site, outside
mainline traffic— traffic traveling east and west on Carmel Drive would not have to stop for an individual
waiting to turn left onto the site
Petitioner does not play a role in the roundabout—has only been asked to accommodate
Today, exiting onto Range Line Road is only north (right turn) traveling thru the Kroger site to the
signalized intersection would allow a left turn onto Range Line Road
City could modify right in/right out and install a median to prevent access
Lift elevates to accommodate deliveries to the site; screened from view, even when in operation
Bicycle parking is provided and identified, adjacent to walk areas
Petitioner is providing a penthouse screen and roof top units will be entirely screened from view
Lighting fixtures are pole mounted; others are canopy or soffit that surrounds the bldg LED lighting
system little spotlights
Recycling area at far, northwest comer of site (details under Tab 5) and matches the building design
Based on number of comments from Commission members, appropriate for this item to be reviewed by
Committee and returned to full Commission for vote
Existing locations of Turkey Hill facilities: Re -build in Martinsville; newest ground -up facility in
Columbus, near Ohio State campus currently three locations in Indianapolis and Avon area
Left turns off Carmel Drive is permitted today— petitioner not adding additional
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No proposal to restrict hours of operation
Second floor is 2,000 square feet; first floor is 4,000 square feet in tenant space employees would park
on the Kroger site to free -up parking for patrons —site plan shows parking heading in toward the building
with additional parking along the east perimeter to the site —a walking path area is also provided for
patrons to successfully navigate around the island
Level of parking required on -site exceeds expectations —can be discussed further at Committee
Will locate examples of lighting
Construction of roundabout is so removed from the plan, it is not even part of discussion
Dept Response, Angie Conn:
Can look at Kroger site —right in/right out, but from a traffic flow standpoint, it makes sense for traffic to
go thru the Kroger site to the signalized intersection
Dept will also talk with Engineering
Dept Response, Michael Hollibaugh:
Regarding architectural guidelines, looked at building just like any other under Range Line Road Overlay
Plans were referred to Les Olds, CRC, for feedback
Additional detail has been added to the building
Committee process does allow for comments and adjustments by Plan Commission
Renderings seldom do justice to a development
Jon Dobosiewicz:
CSO Architects was engaged last fall and concept exhibits were prepared and utilized when discussing
development of this site with Staff
After concept plans were developed, CSO was no longer involved; Turkey Hill engaged an architect from
Missouri to develop final drawings
This development is not under purview of Redevelopment Commission
Will bring architect to Committee meeting
Can incorporate different elements of design —roof pitch, alignment of upper and lower floors, windows,
masonry requirements, etc.
Will take comments of Plan Commission regarding design and offer alternatives
Disposition: Docket No. 1004009 DP /ADLS, Turkey Hill Minit Markets was referred to Special Studies
Committee for further review on July 06, 2010.
3. Docket No. 10060001 OA: ZO CH 28: Nonconforming Uses Exemptions, Amendment. The
applicant seeks to amend Chapter 28: Nonconforming Uses Exemptions of the Carmel Zoning
Ordinance. Filed by the Carmel Dept. of Community Services on behalf of the Carmel Plan
Commission.
Present for Petitioner: Adrienne Keeling, Dept of Community Services
Overview:
Proposed Amendment to Chapter 28 of Zoning Ordinance
Proposal amends non conforming use chapter
Currently Ordinance has paragraph to determine non conforming use
Existing language allows BZA to consider question of non conforming use as a question of fact
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Proposal adds language when questions of non conforming use are as a result of eminent domain,
(usually because of a roadway improvement)
Proposed paragraph specifically allows those questions of non conforming uses to be placed on the
Board of Zoning Appeals Agenda by the Dept Director
General Public Comments, Unfavorable:
Tim Oaks, attorney, Ice Miller, One American Square, Indianapolis, 46282, representing and appearing on behalf
of Hunt Pacific Management, owner of Woodland Springs Apartments located at 116 Street and Keystone
Parkway.
Overview:
Believe the motivating factor for this Amendment is the position they find themselves
Condemnation is a result of taking of right -of -way within one foot from an apartment building
Litigation has resulted
Mr. Oaks displayed a picture showing closeness of construction to apartment building
Timing of Proposed Amendment is believed to be inappropriate
Purpose and Effect is even more disconcerting
Purpose is believed to be an attempt by Carmel to reduce damages in an eminent domain case
Owner of property must endure a greater burden with respect to public improvements
It is believed that the City is trying to reduce "fair market value" that the property owner should receive
Effect? Scenario #1: Road is widened and results in right -of -way being moved; let us say that a 20 foot
set back is now a 5 foot set back and not in compliance. Zoning Administrator requests the item be put
on the Agenda and declared a non conforming use. Let's assume it moves forward and is a non-
conforming use.
Scenario #2: A few years later: A different street, different home, set -back is now reduced to one foot
and the Zoning Administrator makes the same request. How can the Board, at that time, find differently?
If it is a non conforming use at 15 feet, it must be at one foot —there is no discretion; in other words
there are no standards in the provisions drafted.
Another example: Instead of Carmel widening the road, it is MOT and they take property. Suddenly a
pylon sign that Carmel has had to endure for years and years is now not compliant with the Ordinance.
How do you then say, we don't want that to be a non conforming use, we want it taken down. Be careful
what you ask for here. In one isolated circumstance you may think it is benefiting Carmel, but then you
are stuck with it.
There are no standards, no consistent enforcement, it is not believed to be legal, and worst of all, not
even "fair."
Rebuttal: Michael Hollibaugh, Director, Dept of Community Services
Understands that there are concerns by Mr. Oaks, his law firm, and the property owner
City is trying to acquire ground from property owner —this is not a way to try to correct that situation
City has been purchasing real estate for road widening on a fairly large scale for more than a decade
Rarely does the City end up going to Court to solve the problems
Normally City works with land owners to solve problems the City creates with setbacks and zoning
standards
Proposed language meant to solve problems the City creates —not a way around them
City can agree on price, result is they are short in setback
Trying to incorporate a process
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Would like landowners to feel comfortable, to make things right, so that there is no cloud hanging over
their real estate because of the widening of the road that changed the situation and leaves them in a non-
conforming situation
The proposed Amendment is an option we are trying to add to the Ordinance
Department Comments, Angie Conn:
Recommend suspend Rule of Procedure
Recommend forwarding to City Council with positive recommendation
Commission Question:
If this gets passed, how does that change the situation for the property owner?
John Molitor, Legal Counsel:
It is not clear that it would change the process for this particular property owner represented by Mr. Oaks. In
general, under the existing Ordinance, there is already a process for it to be decided by the Board of Zoning
Appeals. The Ordinance is not crystal clear on this point. Our Ordinance defines an Illegal Nonconforming Use
as something that was always illegal, even before an Ordinance got changed; Legal Nonconforming Use is
something that was legal, then the Ordinance got changed and now makes it non conforming, but is termed
"grandfathered" whereby you can continue to have it, even though the Ordinance got changed after improvements
were made. Our Ordinance does not specifically address the situation where you have a building that is
conforming and a utility or city comes along and takes right of way and now it is too close —our Ordinance does
not address that —other than the possibility that the issue can be sent to the Board of Zoning Appeals for a
decision.
Much discussion ensued with hypothetical situations given
Motion: Jay Dorman "To suspend the Rule of Procedure in order to vote on this item this evening." Motion
seconded by Woody Rider, approved 10 -0
Motion: Jay Dorman "To forward Docket No. 10060001 OA, ZO CH 28, Nonconforming Uses Exemptions,
Amendment, to the City Council with a NEGATIVE recommendation." Motion seconded by Woody Rider,
approved 10 -0.
I. Old Business
TABLED TO JULY 20: Docket No. 10050001 OA: Appendix A Amendment
The apphean -seeks to amen. Appemdi*.4 Sehedule o bls' "tee Zening-Qfdinanee. Filed
by the Gafmel Dept ity S ff -4 ees b f th r t Dt GGemmi ten
J. New Business None
K. Adjournment 7:25 PM
Leo Dierckman, President
Od J 4 6 ME coc ecretary
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