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HomeMy WebLinkAboutMinutes Sub 06-29-06 City of Carmel CARMEL PLAN COMMISSION SUBDIVISION COMMITTEE MINUTES THURSDAY, JUNE 29, 2006 LOCATION: CAUCUS ROOMS TIME: 6:00 P.M. CARMEL CITY HALL DOORS OPEN AT 5:30 P.M. ONE CIVIC SQUARE CARMEL, IN 46032 Those Present: Representing the Committee: Dan Dutcher Wayne Haney Kevin Heber Carol Schleif Representing the Department: Angie Conn Of Counsel: John Molitor In the absence of the Committee Chair, Rick Ripma, Dan Dutcher called the meeting to order at approximately 6:10p.m. The Subdivision Committee will meet to consider the following items: 1.Docket No. 06030005 PP: Village on the Monon Docket No. 06030028 SW: SCO Chapter 7.05.07Woodlands , The applicant seeks to plat 19 lots on 6.67 acres. The site is located at 1320 Rohrer Road and is zoned R1 Residential Filed by Kevin Roberts of DeBoy Land Development Services for The Anderson Corporation. Present for the Petitioner: Kevin Roberts with DeBoy Land Development and Jim Anderson with the Anderson Corporation. Petitioner’s Presentation: Jim Anderson , whose offices are located at 12900 N. Meridian Street in Carmel, introduced the project. He said that the project is intended as an empty nester development. He said that he expects the price point of the homes to start at around $300,000.00 including the lot and Page 1 ONE CIVIC SQUARE CARMEL, INDIANA 46032 317/571-2417 June 29, 2006 Carmel Plan Commission Subdivision Committee Minutes range from about $300,000 to $400,000. He said that the homes would be predominantly brick and that the likely square footage range would be around 1800 to 2400 square feet. He said that all of the homes would have main floor Master bedrooms. He said that the development would be a low maintenance type development. He said that each homeowner would pay monthly dues and those dues would cover the cost of common ground maintenance, mowing and upkeep, snow removal of their particular yard, and irrigation system maintenance. He said that the amenities of the site were open space and preservation of the natural environment. He said that they have agreed to several improvements of Rohrer Road including widening Rohrer Road four additional feet along the entire length of their property, constructing a deceleration and acceleration blister as well as a deceleration lane, milling and resurfacing the entire length of Rohrer Road in front of their property. He said that they had agreed to provide additional Right of Way, so that there will be a forty-foot half right of way on their side of Rohrer Road which many accommodate some future road work. He said that the entry will be off of Rohrer Road. He said that they added a median when you enter that would be a landscaped median. He said that there would be two monument type signs on either side, as you would enter. He said that they would be preserving the existing woodlands along the South property line. He discussed the layout of the subdivision. He said that they would have a perimeter path and interior sidewalks. He said that they would be saving the natural environment around the entire perimeter of the site. He went through the tree development open space schedule. He said that they intend to save trees on lots and along property lines where it is not prohibitive. He said that the calculations included in the tree development open space schedule do not take this into account He said that they assume that if it is on a lot, then it is gone. He said that he thinks that the project will be an economical asset to Carmel, that it won’t be too much of a burden on the City Services and that it will be an aesthetic improvement to the site and to the area. Department Report: Angie Conn said that the petitioners have met and exceeded the requirements for providing open space. She said that they were going by the book as far as platting to the straight R-1 district. She said that the Urban Forester is in favor of the Development Plan and he has approved the tree mitigation plan. Shesaid that the Staff recommends that the petitioner follow commitments that need to be recorded which relate to Rohrer Road and the primary plat. She said that with those commitments, the staff recommends that the Committee forward this to full Plan Commission with a positive recommendation. Dan Dutcher called for public comments regarding this docket number. Seeing none, he closed the public hearing on the proposal. Carol Schleif commented that she was looking for usable open space. She confirmed that linear trails counted towards usable open space. Kevin Heber asked about the specs on the trails. Jim Anderson said that they would like for them to be the dusty trails because of the development’s proximity to the Monon Trail. He clarified that the trails would be approximately 6 ft. wide. Carol Schleif clarified that the homes would be mostly one-story homes. Jim Anderson commented that he believed that if the homes were to have a second story it would be Page 2 ONE CIVIC SQUARE CARMEL, INDIANA 46032 317/571-2417 June 29, 2006 Carmel Plan Commission Subdivision Committee Minutes down. Wayne Haney asked what the minimum area of the first floor was going to be. Jim Anderson said that they set the minimum ground area at 1800 square feet. Wayne Haney said that the committee’s concern at the last meeting was with lot coverage. He said that some of the lots are 50 ft in width and with the homes being one-story; the lot coverage would be extensive. He said that he would like to see a footprint of a home on one of the lots, so they can judge the lot coverage. He said that with some of the lots being 100 x 50, there is a question of whether a home of 1700 or 1800 square feet could fit on the lot with the garage, etc. Jim Anderson said that there are not final architectural plans because they wanted to wait to ensure that they had a viable project, but he said that they were certain that they could fit the homes on there. He said that the minimum side yards are 6 feet. Wayne Haney said that he was concerned about the limited yard space available at the last meeting until the petitioner pointed out that the homes were going to be aimed for retired residents. Jim Anderson said that by not adding the depth onto the backyard space, it allows them to preserve more of the natural open space that is there. He said that fits in well with their concept, as they don’t want to have a lot of space on the property that has to have a high degree of maintenance. Wayne Haney said that people his age are not really looking for a great deal of maintenance. He said that changed the Committee’s consideration. He said that if it was going to be for families, then the Committee members found it highly restrictive, but if it is for retired people, then it might be suitable. He said that his only concern is whether a home of 1800 square feet would fit on the lot with a garage, etc. Jim Anderson said that they could and they would fit. He said that they would agree to work closely with the staff on the design and layout of the homes on the sites if the Committee wanted. Wayne Haney said that in the future they would like to see enough information to know that it meets all of the zoning and building requirements. Angie Conn asked the Committee members if it would be helpful for the petitioners to bring a sample building footprint on one of the smaller lots to the Plan Commission meeting if the project were to move forward tonight. Wayne Haney thought that would be helpful. Carol Schleif added that the building footprint wouldn’t need to be square. She said that using variety makes little pockets of spaces that people can call their own. She said that she believed that was one of the issues before was that they couldn’t see what was going there and what the spacing would be like in between. She said that she does like the curving streets because that allows the “in- between spaces” of Page 3 ONE CIVIC SQUARE CARMEL, INDIANA 46032 317/571-2417 June 29, 2006 Carmel Plan Commission Subdivision Committee Minutes the homes to be a little more interesting. Dan Dutcher said that they spent a great deal of time at the last meeting talking about the tree preservation plan and the woodlands waiver. He confirmed that there was nothing in the commitment that undermined the tree mitigation plan included in the packet. Jim Anderson confirmed that he was still committed to implementing that plan. Dan Dutcher clarified that the Urban Forester had fully approved the plans as submitted and that nothing else was needed from Scott Brewer. Angie Conn noted that the Urban Forester had sent out an email confirming his approval of the plans. Kevin Heber said that he was curious why the petitioners had chosen Juniper trees to be planted along the road. He said that the nice thing about that stretch is that you are in a tunnel of trees. He said that there is a very nice and dramatic section. He said that a Juniper wouldn’t do that justice, so he said that he was wondering what was planned for that. Jim Anderson said that he thought that they would need to consult with Scott to pick a tree that would have a canopy. Kevin Heber said that it would be nice to have something planted there that would have some color in the Fall and that would create a nice canopy. He said that he would ask the petitioners to find something more stately and colorful for that stretch. Carol Schleif said that if the petitioners could move tree number 90 that would be great. Discussion ensued regarding the natural open space around the perimeter of the site and it’s appearance. Jim Anderson said that he thinks that tree number 90 is actually more like 60 ft. tall. Carol Schleif said that she misread. She confirmed that a sixty-foot Norway Spruce could not be moved. Kevin Heber asked if the petitioner could mill up the sidewalk while they were out milling up Rohrer Road and then conform it to the asphalt path down to the intersection. Jim Anderson said that there is a nice Pin Oak that sits right in the middle of the sidewalk. He said that he thought they would have to go out a few sections to snake it around that tree. Discussion ensued regarding the path of the sidewalk. Carol Schleif asked how big the trees going in along Rohrer Road were going to be. Kevin Roberts said that Scott Brewer likes the 2.5-inch caliper. Page 4 ONE CIVIC SQUARE CARMEL, INDIANA 46032 317/571-2417 June 29, 2006 Carmel Plan Commission Subdivision Committee Minutes Carol Schleif said that she loves the canopy along there. She said that it seems like a heartbreak. Kevin Roberts said that the majority of the trees being lost were along the road. He said that on the East side of Rohrer Road were a lot bigger trees within inches of the road. He said that the trees on that side of the road were the reason that they opted to do all of the extra widening and the auxiliary lanes on the project side of the property. He said that they didn’t want to disturb that side at all. Wayne Haney Docket Number06030005 PP: Village on the Monon made formal motion to send and Docket No. 06030028 SW: SCO Chapter 7.05.07Woodlands full Plan , back to the Commission positive recommendation assuming the approval of the tree preservation and with a tree mitigation plans by Scott Brewer, commitments to reconsider the type of tree to be replanted along Rohrer Road with Scott Brewer, and the contiguity of the sidewalk along Rohrer Road. Carol Schleif seconded the motion. APPROVED unanimously (4-0). Motion was …END… ST 2.Docket No. 06010001 Z: Monon Townes PUD – CONT. TO AUG 1 The applicant seeks to rezone 6.81 acres from R1/Residential to PUD/Planned Unit Development for the purpose of creating 65 townhomes. The site is located at 1001 Rohrer Road. Filed by Ann M. Walker for Pulte Homes of Indiana, LLC. ST 3.Docket No. 06010005 Z: Shelborne Property PUD – CONT. TO AUG 1 The applicant seeks to rezone 20 acres from S1/Residential to PUD/Planned Unit Development for the purpose of developing single-family residences. st The site is located on the west side of Shelborne Road, north of 121 Street. Filed by Charles Frankenberger of Nelson and Frankenberger for Indiana Land Development Co. ST 4.Docket No. 06010009 Z: Crook PUD – CONT. TO AUG 1 The applicant seeks to rezone 20 acres from S1/Residential to PUD for the purpose of platting 40 single family homes on 20 acres. th The site is located at 2238 W. 136 Street and is zoned S1/Residential. Filed by Charlie Frankenberger of Nelson and Frankenberger for Indiana Land Development. th 5.Docket No. 06020017 CPA: 96 & Westfield Neighborhood Plan ST – CONT. TO AUG 1 The applicant seeks to amend the Carmel/Clay Comprehensive Plan in order to incorporate th the 96 & Westfield Neighborhood Plan. Filed by the Carmel Department of Community Services. 6.Docket No. 06040017 PUD: Townhomes at Central Park The applicant seeks to create 110 townhomes on 8.8 acres. The site is located at 11400 Westfield Blvd. and is zoned R1 Residential Page 5 ONE CIVIC SQUARE CARMEL, INDIANA 46032 317/571-2417 June 29, 2006 Carmel Plan Commission Subdivision Committee Minutes Filed by Mary Solada of Bingham McHale for Mann Properties. Present for the Petitioner: Mary Solada with Bingham McHale, representing Mann Properties, Greg Ewing, Tim Seitz, and Brian Sullivan with Mann Development. Petitioner’s Presentation: Mary Solada noted that the Department Report which pointed out the changes to the property since the last meeting. She said that 92 townhomes on 8.8 acres is what is now being proposed. She said that the project represents a reduction in density of about 16% since the initial filing of the project. She said that the setbacks from surrounding properties had been increased, particularly those to the North and those along Westfield Blvd. She said that she thinks that it is important to emphasize that the existing trees that form a canopy along Westfield Blvd. will be preserved. She said that they have provided more detail regarding the architecture and building materials to the Department since the last meeting. She said that they have worked through issues with the department regarding landscape design as well as some engineering issues. She said that in terms of elevation, they feel that they have a unique design. She said that what they propose is high quality and has a sense of place that many townhome developments do not have. She said that people pulling in would be looking at a green space and pavilion area, not at the back of homes or towards garage doors. She said that the Department Report is very favorable and suggests that this is one of the better townhome developments that they have seen. Greg Ewing said that the density that is currently being proposed is 10.45 units to the acre. He discussed the density reduction in terms of how the current proposed density would compare to other townhome developments in the area. He compared the proposed development to the Aramore Property, which was recently forwarded to the City Council with a favorable recommendation from the Plan Commission, in terms of units per acre, building separations, current site conditions, garage door locations, and building materials. He discussed the specific setbacks and separations of different building and property lines of the site. He noted that the building layout is such that it would have minimal view of any garage door from almost anywhere on the perimeter. He said that one of the Plan Commission members commented at the last meeting that there were too many of the larger buildings, or the 7-unit buildings. He said that all of those larger buildings had been eliminated and now there are a maximum of six units in the buildings, but he pointed out that a majority of the buildings in the revised site plan are the four or five unit buildings. He said that additional trees have been able to be saved with the revised site layout. He said that after working closely with Scott Brewer, they believe that they have addressed all of the issues that he had raised over that past couple of months. He said that they were proposing up to 1700 caliper inches of saved and preserved trees. He said that 617 caliper inches would be removed. He said that they had received confirmation as late as today that they will be able to provide a pedestrian access to Central Park. He said that after the development is complete, there would be over 300 trees on the site. He said that a Vectren Pipeline and easement will run through the property. He said that there are some existing trees in that easement that Vectren will be taking out on this site, but then on other properties as well. He said that they are proposing green corridors where the pipeline exists that will run the entire length of the site. He said that he believes that Scott Brewer has found that the landscaping and preservation plan are acceptable. He said that the have changed their building elevations to include some hip roofs at the ends and that they have also shown a side elevation and a rear elevation. He said that there were three different brick colors and some masonry work used in the elevations. He said that they would like to incorporate the comments and feedback received tonight from the public and the Plan Commission Subdivision Page 6 ONE CIVIC SQUARE CARMEL, INDIANA 46032 317/571-2417 June 29, 2006 Carmel Plan Commission Subdivision Committee Minutes Committee members and come back before the Committee at the August 1, 2006 meeting. Mary Solada said that the project alone doesn’t require the widening of Westfield Blvd. She said that the City has a long-term plan that involves the widening of Westfield Blvd. She said that this plan would not trip that plan into action at this point in time. She said that this project would not trigger an immediate widening of Westfield Blvd. She said that the current traffic on Westfield Blvd. combined with the anticipated Central Park traffic on Westfield Blvd; the extra traffic that will be generated by this development would be miniscule in comparison. She noted that Central Park is anticipated to draw half a million visitors every year. She said that they believe and the Department believes that the traffic that this development will draw is a non-issue. Department Report: Angie Conn said that the recently approved Urban Design Initiative for Carmel has directed increased density to the City’s core. She said that this project falls in line with that plan. She said that the proposed plan has many revisions, which address the comments from the Plan Commission members and the neighbors. She said that the project fits well into the adjoining Central Park, the Central Park entrance, and the close proximity to the corner neighborhood retail, which has a bank, dry cleaners, restaurants, etc. She said that staff feels that this density is well-executed in its layout with the inclusion of pocket parks, outdoor seating, tree preservation, etc. She said that the most recent tree preservation plan is preserving as many trees as possible and has been approved by the Urban Forester, Scott Brewer. She said that a traffic study done in 2004 showed that approximately 16,000 trips per day is on South Rangeline Road. She said that this project would generate approximately 200 trips. She said that would amount to a little over a 1% increase in traffic. She said that the Staff recommends that the Committee forward the request to the full Plan Commission with a favorable recommendation after all comments and concerns are addressed. Dan Dutcher called for Organized Remonstrance – favorable. Dan Dutcher Seeing none,called for General Public Comments – favorable. Greg Robbins, who lives at 11400 Westfield Blvd., said that he owns the largest piece of the three properties that comprise the site. He said that the Mayor Brainard told him that there were no plans to widen Westfield Blvd. anytime soon. He said that the Mayor said that Western Carmel was the priority for road projects. He said that the Mayor commented that this project would have no affect on the timeline of the widening of Westfield Blvd. He said that he likes the new proposal and how it saves more trees. He said that many trees on the property are moveable. He said that they will personally hire a tree service to move the trees that Mann cannot use to either a new property that they are going to buy or to donate them to Central Park. He said that when the land for the park was purchased, this part of Carmel was forever changed. He said that it is no longer going to be a rural, quiet part of Carmel. He said that they used to have horses on the property, but that they could no longer do that. He said that the original plans for the park and the road next to their property was for a maintenance only road. He said that the road became one of the three major entrances to Central park at the last meeting. He said that the park expects to have 500,000 “customers” per year. He said that the Central Park project was a large commercial project and that it would take some money for it to run. He said that their privacy is gone and their property is no longer suitable as a private estate lot. He said that the project being proposed does not truly adversely affect any of the people there to remonstrate against the project. He said that the Page 7 ONE CIVIC SQUARE CARMEL, INDIANA 46032 317/571-2417 June 29, 2006 Carmel Plan Commission Subdivision Committee Minutes neighborhoods represented were Creekside, Wood Valley, Pine Valley, and Jordan Woods. He said that they were all cul-de-sac or dead-end street neighborhoods. He said that no one from the new subdivision would have to drive through any of their neighborhoods. He said that the only traffic effect would be on Westfield Blvd. and that would only be a drop in the bucket. He said that he was puzzled why Jordan Woods was remonstrating against the project because the subdivision is ½ a mile away. He said that the Aramore project is also a ½ a mile away from Jordan Woods and they were not present to remonstrate against that project. He said that Bill Kruger, who owns the property across the street from his, actually resides in Jordan Woods. He said that Mr. Kruger had all of his friends and neighbors together to come and remonstrate against the project. He said that what was really upsetting wasn’t that he didn’t live in that house, but that he runs a commercial photography business from the house. He said that there is a commercial photography studio operating from a single-family residence trying to dictate what is going to happen on their residential property. He said that the tax revenue would be huge for Carmel. He noted that the park wouldn’t generate any tax dollars, but someone would still have to pay for it. He said that the Comprehensive Plan designates the property as multi-family residential. He said that Mann has worked closely with staff to create a very nice project for Carmel. Dale Sollenberger, who resides at 11038 Winter Cove Way in Fishers, said that he owns the property at 11460 Westfield Blvd. He said that he bought the property approximately 5-6 years ago with the idea of being close to work in Carmel with it still having a suburban feel. He said that it wasn’t long after he bought it that it became apparent that wasn’t quite the case. He said that the traffic volume on Westfield Blvd. made it difficult to carry on a conversation on the front patio. He said that it was noisy for the kids to play in the front yard. He said that the backyard was the same. He said that the property is not necessarily woods because he had to cut the grass all the time. He said that it became apparent that location wasn’t suburban like he was hoping. He said that he had three different parties approach him to purchase the property. He said that as an architect and a contractor, he said that he was well aware of all of them, but he felt Mann was the best to deal with this particular property. Dan Dutcher called for any other general public comments – favorable. Seeing none, he called for organized remonstrance - unfavorable. Fred Frauhiger, who resides at 1744 Creekside Lane, said that he represents the Wood Valley, Pine Valley, and Jordan Woods residents also. He said that their concerns are summarized and condensed down to one thing and that is density. He said when looking at the proposed development now, the thought came to mind that the project that was just presented, the Village on the Monon project (Docket Number 06030005 PP), which was 19 lots on 6.67 acres, was the number of units that Mann has reduced their development by. He said that the thought occurred to him that when there is a density that is 19 lots on 6.67 acres there is no objection whatsoever, but when there is a contrast of density to 92 units on 8.8 acres, there is a vast difference and you fill the room. He said that obviously the citizens and residents of the community, many of which are long-term and active residents in Carmel, feel that this is way over the top as far as density is concerned. He said that in the corridor there are no other three-story townhomes sticking up out of a residential area. He said that none of them are opposed to progress. He said that he personally would love to see a reasonable density. He said that he would like to believe that Mayor Brainard and his administration, as well as the Council and Plan Commission members and Staff believe in the spirit of the Comprehensive Plan. He discussed some other townhome locations in the area. He said that their appeal would be for the Plan Commission to represent the residents and to vote for something that is reasonable and that is more like all the other projects that have come in being less dense Page 8 ONE CIVIC SQUARE CARMEL, INDIANA 46032 317/571-2417 June 29, 2006 Carmel Plan Commission Subdivision Committee Minutes and, in his opinion, much nicer, much better, and a better fit with the Comprehensive Plan that Carmel says that they want moving forward. th Don Newell , who lives at 1910 E. 109 Street, said that he was the secretary of the Jordan Woods Homeowner’s Association and that he represented all of the homeowners of Jordan Woods subdivision. He said that he appreciated the changes that he had seen Mann make to improve the aesthetics of the development. He said that the point is that 92 units is still a significant amount of density. He said that he is not too concerned about Central Park because he said that most of the traffic at the park isn’t going th to be during rush hour during the week. He said that he is concerned about getting out at 110 street. He said that he works in Indianapolis and he has to take Westfield Blvd. down and take Westfield Blvd. back. He said that we have all seen the long lines of traffic that back up on Westfield Blvd. He said that he thinks another 200 cars per day is going to make a significant difference. He said that he and the group of people he represents are definitely opposed to this development. th Ken Handy, who resides at 1849 E. 110 Street, said that he was the Treasurer of the Homeowner’s Association for Jordan Woods. He commented that there were actually 166 homeowners that he represented. He said that at the June 6, 2006 meeting, Pete Stewart, who is also with the Jordan Woods Homeowner’s Association spoke about the issues that Jordan Woods was concerned about. He said that he wants to reiterate their opposition to the property being zoned anything other than the current zoning of R-1. He said that at a prior planning meeting a Commission member suggested that Mann consider going to a two-story courthome. He said that tonight they were still submitting for three stories. He said that he had been in Carmel for sixteen years. He said that they felt that the project would certainly hasten or speed up the City’s decision to widen Westfield Blvd. He said that the reason why Jordan Woods did not remonstrate against the Aramore project because they were not notified and they didn’t know about ththth it. He said that 106 could not be compared to 116 because 116 street did not have the beauty that thth 106 street did. Jordan Woods goes up to 111 Street, which makes it only three blocks away. He said that it didn’t really matter, however, if they were three blocks away or three miles away, they are still part of Carmel either way and they like their concerns to be heard. He said that their concerns were just as valid as anyone else’s. Grahame Curts, who lives at 11520 Westfield Blvd., said that his main concern was with the petitioner’s surface water system for all of this run off from the pavement that was going to go into the ground. He said that the problem is that water runs downhill and he lives downhill. He said that he has a big problem and he said that when he gets excess water, if the City of Carmel okays the project, they would have to answer to it and Mann Development would have to answer to it. Neal Eggeson, who lives at 1727 Creekside Lane West, said that he agrees with the previous speakers. He said that he wanted clarification about what the townhomes were going to be. He said that no one had really said what the square footage was going to be and what the price range was going to be and whether they were going to be one bedroom or three bedroom. He asked if the townhomes were all going to be the same on the inside. He said that Creekside has had a problem in the past with the government changing the status of some of their homes in terms of flood plain because of Carmel Creek. He wanted to know if the development would cause more pain and suffering to the residents of Creekside. Page 9 ONE CIVIC SQUARE CARMEL, INDIANA 46032 317/571-2417 June 29, 2006 Carmel Plan Commission Subdivision Committee Minutes Jack Engledow , who resides at 1819 Wood Valley Drive, said that he thinks that people object to this project because it is too tall and too dense. He said that it is way out of character for the area. He said that this project would set up a precedent for the rest of Westfield Blvd. to be developed in the same way. He said that there are different and better ways to develop than this density and this type of development. He said that he was curious about how far from the fronts of the units the canopy trees were. He said that he wondered if it was really practical to believe that they would be saved because he knows what happens when you let a bulldozer loose in an area. Diane Curts, who resides at 11520 Westfield Blvd., said that her sister lives at the Reserve in Broad Ripple and has lived there for two years. She said that after the first year of her sister residing there, people started renting out their places. She said that they got a bunch of college kids that moved in there and she said that it is just going down. She said that was another issue that they had. Janeen Park, who resides at 1822 Wood Valley Drive, said that her concern is for the one single resident th that will still exist in between the commercial property at 116 and Westfield Blvd. and the massive townhome development that they want to put in. She wanted to know what was going to happen to that single homeowner. She said that she felt like that homeowner was going to be forced out. She said that one home will not look like it belongs there any longer and she said that she thinks that is a shame. She said that she thinks the townhomes will look out of place as well. She said that she has a friend that lives th at the development at 86 and Meridian. She said that when they have guests over, the guests have to come in through the garage entrance because the guests would have to walk around this huge building in order to be able to walk in through the front door. She suggested that the petitioners consider some sort of rear entry because she said that she wouldn’t want her guests having to walk through her garage to get into her house. She said that there are several beautiful and mature 80 and 100-year-old trees on the property. She said that a 5-10 year old sapling is not the same as an 80 to 100-year-old hardwood tree. She said that there was no one in the room that would see the trees that the petitioners would plant as mitigation mature in their lifetime. She said that there is little, if any, demand for townhome living. She said that there is a demand for one-story condominium living. She posed the question, “How many townhomes do we need if there is already a great decrease in demand for it?” She said that she is concerned with what will happen if they can’t sell it. She said that she thought Carmel needed to question some of these things before they just allowed all of this to be built. Elizabeth Grossman , who resides at 11201 Westfield Blvd., said that she had owned this property since 1954. She said that European Immigrants lived in row housing in Baltimore, Boston, and New York City. She said that they were known as the Eastern Row Houses. She said that when the people got established, they moved on out of the row houses. She said that she is trapped now. She said that she can’t get out of her driveway without taking her life in her hands from 6:45am until 8:30am, 11:30am until 12:30p.m., and from 4:30p.m. until 6:30p.m. She said that there is a constant flow of traffic. She said that with the addition of 92 row houses and the addition of the park entrance diagonal from her driveway, she said that she would never be able to get out of her driveway. She said that she doesn’t think that a roundabout is the answer. She said that it would be a continuous flow of traffic. She said that a th traffic light would be needed. She said that there are four or five lights from 116 street to Shapiros. She th asked why an additional light couldn’t be added for safety purposes at 111 street. She said that it is like a race track now and better monitoring of the speed limit is needed in there also. She said that all people could not make over $100,000 a year. She said that lower and middle class pay their mortgage too. She Page 10 ONE CIVIC SQUARE CARMEL, INDIANA 46032 317/571-2417 June 29, 2006 Carmel Plan Commission Subdivision Committee Minutes said that these people are working people. She asked if we should just get rid of them because they are the working class. She asked where they should go. She said that everyone has heard of ethnic cleansing. She posed the question of whether Carmel was doing “economic cleansing”. She said that some want to have safety in their own home. She asked why Carmel couldn’t have the charm of Zionsville rather than all of the urbanization. She said that she thinks that it is greed and the bottom line is money. Marilyn Mesh , who lives at 10918 Timber Lane, said that it has been suggested that because they live in Jordan Woods and are not as near to this project as others, that there is no concern. She said that they are part of Carmel also and she said that the issue was more than “not in my backyard”. She said that she thinks that it is time to let the Commissioners know that they are Carmel and they are not out to get urban development here. She said that it would be short-sided to think that the two hundred cars would not affect Westfield Blvd. long term. She said that Westfield Blvd. is on the Comprehensive Plan as an urban arterial and planned to be ninety-feet wide. She said that it may not happen today, but it will happen. She said that she would like to see some consideration for the natural beauty of Carmel preserved. She said that it has not been preserved in other places and its just scary. She said that the issues are much more broad than just this one project. She said that Jordan Woods is concerned and that they want to support their neighbors in Creekside, Wood Valley, Pine Valley, and anyone who lives on Westfield Blvd. She said that they drive it too. Dan Dutcher called for the Petitioner’s rebuttal. Mary Solada said that she would just like to answer the questions that were raised. She said that the minimum square footage of the townhomes would be 1400 square feet exclusive of garage. She said that they expect pricing to be between $250,000 and $300,000. She said that the Comprehensive Plan does show the South Road, the entrance to Central Park as the boundary line for the higher density. She said that it does not propose higher density South of here. She said that the way that she understands it; the Department is not advocating higher density South of Central Park. She said that the Engineering Staff at Mann Properties has identified the property to the North as low lying and Flood Plain. She said that it would be highly unlikely that anyone could ever develop it. Dan Dutcher said that he would like as much clarification as Angie Conn can provide as far as the th current vision for development related to this property and Westfield Blvd. south of 116 Street. He said that he understands that it is kind of a moving target because the comprehensive plan hasn’t been approved yet. th Angie Conn said that basically there is a comprehensive plan amendment and a 96 Street and Westfield neighborhood plan taking place, which has been continued until the August meeting. She said that with all of these things in play, the City is analyzing the area and trying to find out where growth will head in the future. She said that they have hired a consultant to analyze these items. She said that, in th collaboration with the Urban Design Initiative, the City sees the area around 116 Street and Rangeline Road as a good area for medium to high-density development. She said that is why the department is supporting this townhome development. Dan Dutcher clarified that itwas fair to say that intersection had been identified for development, but how far south that development would go remains an open question. Page 11 ONE CIVIC SQUARE CARMEL, INDIANA 46032 317/571-2417 June 29, 2006 Carmel Plan Commission Subdivision Committee Minutes Angie Conn said that was a fair statement, but that with the recent favorable recommendation of the Aramore project, it was clear that the area would be changing in pockets. A resident asked what the definition of high density was and if there was a number associated with that. Mike Hollibaugh said that some examples of some high-density projects tended to be in the twenty units per acre density range. He said that if that were high end of density for Carmel, then medium-density would probably be fourteen units per acre or less. He said that low-density would be proposed to be in the area of four or five units per acre or less. He said that beyond that there were very low density and estate density. Wayne Haney commented that he noticed that the road to the South is indicated as a maintenance road. He wanted clarification that it would not be a maintenance road. Dan Dutcher said that there was originally a maintenance building planned for that location. He said that changed pretty early on in the planning process. He said that was now going to be one of the three main entrances to Central Park. He said that this particular entrance would provide access to the Eastern part of the Monon Center. He said that would be primarily meeting space. He said that there wouldn’t be access to the other side of the Monon Center, which would be recreational space. He said that there is no longer a maintenance center on that site. He said that it was planned but had now been dropped from the plans. Wayne Haney asked if there would be a rear entrance where a guest would park and enter the townhome. Greg Ewing said that the entrances would be all from the front. Wayne Haney asked if the property to the North was in a flood plain. Matt Griffin said that there was a large portion of the site that was in a floodplain and he said that the portions of the site that were not within the flood plain had pretty poor soils for building anyway. So, he said that there was only a very small amount of that lot to the North that is actually buildable for development from the Staff’s research. Discussion ensued regarding the current building conditions of properties in the area. Wayne Haney said that one of his initial concerns when they first saw the project was the effect it had on Westfield Blvd, the entrance into Carmel. He said that when it was the tall three-story buildings and there was nothing matching it in this area, he was thinking that if the front row of townhomes could be two stories, it might blend better with the area. He said that the rest of the development could step up into the three-story buildings. Greg Ewing said that the initial proposal showed a zero-foot setback along Westfield blvd. He said that the Department of Community Services viewed that as a benefit to implement the plan as related to this Page 12 ONE CIVIC SQUARE CARMEL, INDIANA 46032 317/571-2417 June 29, 2006 Carmel Plan Commission Subdivision Committee Minutes site to provide that urbanized feel as you move into the City Center from the entry drive of Central Park to the North. He said that they pushed it back because of public comments. He emphasized that the products are for sale, not apartments. He said that the builders that they are working with believe, as well as his understandings of conversations with the staff are that three-stories are viable and make sense in this area. Carol Schleif asked how this fit in with the neighborhood. Greg Ewing said that it complies with the Comprehensive Plan and Creekside consists of two-family, three-family, and four-family dwellings attached together. He said that is an example. He said that there is also a non-conforming commercial use without the home being occupied by the purveyor. He said that it is also adjacent to one of the entrances to Central Park. Carol Schleif commented that she wasn’t sure how three-stories fit in with one-story homes in the area. Bill Kruger’s son commented that he permanently resides at the home across the street from the proposed development. He said that Bill Kruger owns the property and he rents from them. He said that they both have a home business there that generates maybe one or twocars a day. He said that it is a colonial style two-story home. Wayne Haney clarified that the condos across the street in Creekside were all one-story with the exception of two two-story homes in the area. He said that what they were trying to do, should the zoning be approved is to make a reasonable transition between a predominantly single-family residential neighborhood to a more dense development. He said that was why he was contemplating two-story townhouses along Westfield where it would not contrast so directly with the residences for the rest of this area. He said that when you are faced with a forty-foot structure that is mostly brick, he said that it could be an unbelievable contrast between single-story residential development. Kevin Heber asked how wide the paths were. Tim Seitz responded that the paths along Westfield Blvd. were eight feet wide; the paths in the main corridor of the development were six feet wide. He said that some of the other ones that run up to the actual units went down to four feet wide. Kevin Heber responded that he believed that the path along Westfield Blvd. is required to be a minimum of ten feet wide. He said that he would suggest the ones in the middle to be eight feet wide. He said that six feet is pretty uncomfortable and he noted that it would be the main thoroughfare through the middle. He said that he thought, when taken in a bubble, the proposed development had a lot of nice things about it. He said that it was more important, however, that it is appropriate to the area. He said that when you are building a world-class city, you have to be prepared for change. He said that there have been a lot of good things in the City Center. He said that he feels that the core of the City Center is more appropriately ththth North of 116 Street. He said that South of 116 Street to 96 street is still kind of vague in terms of planning. He said that there still aren’t a lot of plans and there’s not a lot of vision for that area yet. He said that if they were going to turn a project down, he would hope that he would hear some suggestions from the public on why they should turn it down and what they would like to see on that particular Page 13 ONE CIVIC SQUARE CARMEL, INDIANA 46032 317/571-2417 June 29, 2006 Carmel Plan Commission Subdivision Committee Minutes property and he said that he hasn’t heard any suggestion on what the property should become. He would like to see somebody’s alternative vision for Westfield Blvd. He said that he thinks that there needs to be an alternate plan, if you are going to oppose something. He said that he is caught between a rock and a hard place because he thinks that it is a good project, but he thinks that it might be in the wrong area. Carol Schleif commented that she noticed that there were a lot of big trees on the site. She said that she remembered Leo Dierckman saying that the site plan needed to be changed. She said that the existing large trees on the site could drive the floor plan. She said that she thinks that the mass of the buildings by limiting them to four or five units. She suggested having the end units be two-stories. She said that she likes Wayne’s idea of having two-stories along Westfield Blvd. She said that breaking the buildings down and decreasing parts of them would help. She said that she would start with the big clusters of trees and use smaller clumps of townhomes or row houses. She said that the petitioners should investigate not having the homes in a row, but clumping them together somehow. She said that she though that would help the petitioner immensely with getting people to the front door without having guests who have to walk all the way around a building. She said that the pipeline is an issue and that would drive a lot. She said that she would like to see a non-linear site plan. She said that if the houses were clumped, people would also get different vistas and views. She said that she thinks that the petitioners could solve a whole lot of issues all at once, but she said, that means that the petitioners would have to start all over on their site plan. Wayne Haney clarified the actual property line boundaries. He said that they are torn between the th transition from the residential quality of the area to the urban development on 116 street. He said that we have to be aware that the transition will have to be just that, a transition. He said that they couldn’t just go from a single-story residence to a forty-foot building. He said that there has to be some mitigation in that in order to ease into the urban area. He said that he might be the minority, but he said that he is not sold on making Carmel into New York City. He said that he thinks that the petitioners could work with the concept to make the transition amicable to the neighbors. He said that he does think that he would use that entrance to Central Park if he were going there from Rangeline Road. He said that he thinks that the entrance will get far more use than what is expected. Dan Dutcher said that there have been significant improvements on the plan from what was originally seen. He said that the setbacks and the aesthetics are all a big improvement. He said that he would like the petitioner to keep the attention to the tree preservation in the future layouts. He said that the tree preservation is a good improvement and if they were to attempt a new site plan, he would like to see more attention given to tree preservation. He said that he thinks that the main comments heard tonight were about density and scale. He said that he suspects that this may be an instance where the Plan Commission members themselves may differ a little bit from staff on what the vision is for this particular piece of property. He said that he would encourage the petitioners to continue to move in that direction. He said that the project would be on the August 1, 2007 agenda and that the public hearing would remain open. Carol Schleif shared a suggestion on calculating building spacing with the petitioners. …END… 7.Docket No. 06030025 DP Amend/ADLS Amend: Pearson Ford Signage Page 14 ONE CIVIC SQUARE CARMEL, INDIANA 46032 317/571-2417 June 29, 2006 Carmel Plan Commission Subdivision Committee Minutes ST – CONT TO AUG. 1 The applicant seeks signage approval for an array of site signage additions and alterations. The site is located at 10650 North Michigan Road and is zoned B3/Business. The site is located partially within the US 421/Michigan Road Overlay District. Filed by John Pearson of Pearson Realty, LLC, for Pearson Ford. The meeting was adjourned at 8:18 p.m. ___________________________________ __________________________________ Acting Subdivision Committee Chair – Dan Dutcher Respectfully Submitted By: Laura Rouse-DeVore Page 15 ONE CIVIC SQUARE CARMEL, INDIANA 46032 317/571-2417