HomeMy WebLinkAboutZ-210 Proposed Rezone, Meridian - 465 Associates Transcript r
TRANSCRIPT
FROM CARMEL CITY COUNCIL MEETING
JANUARY 13, 1986
ITEM NO. 4
ORDINANCE Z-210 - PROPOSED REZONE, MERIDIAN-465 ASSOCIATES.`,
LTD, INDIANA LIMITED PARTNERSHIP
Prepared by Terri Hiatt
Mayor Reiman: Mr. Nelson, You've concluded your presentation for the. petitioners?
Jim Nelson: Yes.
Mayor Reiman: Thank you. I don't know - I 'm looking over to you Doug. Would you
like to take the lead sir? Please?
Frank Fleming: Did you open the meeting for public hearing?
Mayor Reiman: I did. I began the public hearing with, We did open this as a public
hearing before the petitioner began speaking so it's continuing, the
petitioner.and his representative can speak, but we did want anyone
from the. public to speak. Perhaps the best way to do it is to start
off. with Dough Church .and then, if you'll be good enough .tbcraise your
.hands, we -will recognize you .and we can assure you that this_ Council ,
the. Clerk-Treasurer. .and myself .(Mayor Reiman 's words became muffled
liere)' what you say (muffled here) long evening. So if you'd raise
• your".hand when Mr. Church is finished, we will recognize you one
at a .time .and don't feel frustrated if I miss you. The. Counciill
tell me if .I .miss .anyone. Please go ahead.
Doug Church: Madam Mayor .and Members of the Council . My name is Doug' Church. I 'm
an attorney .in Noblesville at 938 Conner Street. I 'm here this evening
representing a substantial number of .individuals I think many of whom
are herein the. room this evening, who. live .in the are of this proposed
rezone. I 'm here specificallyon their behalf this evening to register
their opposition .and their remonstrance against,tto this 3-part rezone
application. Even though not all my clients live within the. corporate
limits of Carmel .and therefore, are not your voting constituents, they
more or less are relying upon you to protect them from what they believe
to be the, substantially negative impacts which may result in the event
this rezone application is approved. Rezoning ground is the most
radical of all zoning concepts. And for the better part,. I think most
of you have had it, some experience on the. Plan Commission .and so you
know what I 'm talking about when I refer to subdivision approvals or
special use procedures, as distinguished from a rezone. It's impact
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is felt not only in regard to the specific ground affected, but also
as a pond is rippled by a pebble, for miles in each direction. And
the. most severe form of rezoning is residential classification. Leaving
the residual of adjoining of pre-existing residential uses. The reasons
for this severe Ampactjare complex. They are:f,inancial . They are
emotional , and they have to do with how the. community sees itself and
how others see it. It's financial because of the. negative impact on
the. surviving homes and their property values for those who. choose to
continue to reside there. It is emotional , as well as financial ,
because of the. intrusion of traffic, congestion, noise, air .and light.
pollution and other.environmental impacts, and perhaps; most important,
because of the. challenge to the character of the community .and the quality
of .life. it represents.
Carmel-Clay justly deserves its reputation as a fine`.family community
of single family homes. Carmel-Clay .has a reputation both .in .and
outside the community for protecting its residential areas from the
intrusion of commercial .and .industrial uses. Carmel-Clay has shown
tremendous forsight .in its allocation of commercial zoned areas
controlling not .only the. location but the quality of development. This
plan that .has been presented :this evening, strikes at the heart of each
of these standards which we think you have so carefully crafted over the
years .and which has been .encouraged by the. community .as a whole. This
is not, as I indicated to the. Plan Commission .in our presentations there,
a clash of personalities nor is it something based upon a desire to
inflict revenge .on a corporate entity doing business in the community.
The. fact of the. matter is, we applaud the R.V. Welch developments and
the contributions which they have made to the community in so many ways.
We certainly do not dispute their right to pursue profitable development
. nor their right to apply to the Council for rezoning of this acreage.
.And I might. digress briefly for a second .and say we have no quarrel
with the. right. to use the property presently zoned B-5 in the overlay
zone. We're not blind to the commercial potential which presently exists
in this area. We do dispute the validity of this request on this price
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of ground, which will breech the carefully crafted barriers directed
to prevent commercial intrusion into existing residential neighborhoods.
Let me make a number of points which I believe are material to your
deliberations this evening. First, this property .was purchased by
Mr. Browning .and as we .understand it, subsequently titled .in the. name
of 465-Meridian and Associates with .anabsolute complete knowledge of
its zoning characteristics. This is not a situation where someone can
claim surprise or hardship as a basis for changing zoning. There .has
never been evidence presented that it is not possible to develop these
parcels of ground .in their present zoning categories. Secondly, there
is substantial acreage presently unimproved .and correctly .zoned through-
out the community for the-uses which have been proposed by this
develope w, as well as property within the, specific area of this .tract
along the Meridian Corridor. Thirdly, there is no such thing .in .Indiana
as contract zoning as a permitted means of .engaging a community to
allow a particular type of development to occur .under a zoning
ordinance.' Mr. Nelson and I have exchanged our thoughts .and will not
do that again for you this evening to belabor the point, but it is
our position that a number of the. acts which have occured on the. part
of the, developer, constitute the basis for a challenge to the validity
of the. ordinance, because it could constitute a contract zoning effort.
In the. covenance .and restrictions which have been proposed, it is
important for you to note, on the first page at the. bottom, if you have
those available, .under paragraph numbered one, the following language
which appears. That's the. first, the beginning of the. first full
paragraph at the bottom of the. page; (Mr. Church read the Paragraph)
"The..Carmel Plan Commission hereby accepts the aforementioned
covenance .and agrees to perform the. review provided for herein,
upon the. adoption of an ordinance 'by the Carmel City Council ,
granting the rezone application of the petitioner and sub-
stantially the. form as submitted."
I don't think you have to be a lawyer, I certainly hope not, to understand
that that language. . .
Mayor Reiman: Tell us what you are looking at.
Doug Church This is the original set of covenants that was proposed .and should be
in the..packet, I believe, that's been provided in the back of the books
and it starts right. at the bottom of the page.
Mayor Reiman: Thank you.
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Doug Church: This language suggests that the Carmel Plan Commission has .undertaken
an affirmative act as a basis for inducing this applicant to proceed.
And yet, if you look at the end of this page, or the end of this document
for signature lines for the. Carmel Plan Commission, none appears. If
you look at the minutes of the. Carmel Plan Commission meeting, the.
motion that was passed, certainly did not •specify that they were
accepting or undertaking that agreement. And so, I think it is
presumptuous .on the. part of Mr. Nelson this evening, to explain to you
that they have vested .in the. Plan Commission pursuant to these covenants
the. right. to continue to have authority or jurisdiction over the.
development of this property through the. exercise of architectual
design, sign and_'lighting control , when the fact of the matter is, that
the. covenants he is referring to require the. Plan Commission on an
affirmative basis to accept that responsibility which they've never done.
Beyone that, they .may not have that authority. The. Plan Commission is
a creature of statute. It does not operate .independently or
arbitrarily .and the questions, I think, is a- fair .one to put to your
own Council , whether or not if the. Plan Commission took .an affirmative
position that they choose to accept this responsibility .under this
contract, or under this covenants, if that would be .enforceable.
It's our. position .and I think it needs to be made very clear this
evening, that we do not believe, number .one, there has been any continued
or retained jurisdiction .in the. Carmel Plan Commission to exercise
architectural design, sign and lighting control over-this project,
. number .one. Secondly, at the first meeting, Mr. Nelson took me to
task .and he. did so correctly, because in enumerating the. differ.ent
kinds of uses .under B-1 , which are permitted uses, I went through the
whole list .and I did that on the. context of if this is contract zoning
.and therefore, invalid, .and if the. ground is rezoned, these are the
uses permitted. And tonight he got up'.and said these are uses which
are excluded because .in the. overlay zone they are excluded and we're
making them excluded uses .in B-1 . Well, I' made .an enemy of my
secretary forever, but I had her take the ordinances and I had her
type for you, .and I 'll start 'by passing them out. First, we took the
overlay zone .and we filled out the excluded uses. We then took the
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B-1 , B-3 and B-6 ordinances and applied the ,excluded uses so that
what you have .and what I 'm passing around .for you, now are the. uses
which remain as permitted .uses .in B-l .and B-3, or B-Land B-6 .and
special uses in B-6 after the excluded uses are taken out. Take
a second with me and see what remains. Barber shops .and beauty shops.
Bicycle shops, business .and electronic machines, equipment sales,
camera shops, candy stores, dance halls, drop-in restaurants, drug
stores, electrical appliance shops, furniture stores, grocery stores
and I don't need to read them all , you can read them for yourself..
6-1 is the. most expansive .and unrestricted zoning categOry .in your
code for commercial uses. When I Say .and when the. ordinance says
that a use is permitted, that means, that it does not require or
compell .an owner of property to resubmit to .any jurisdictional
authority, Plan Commission or Board of Zoning Appeals, for any 'type
of :approval as 'long .as he complies with a specific requirements of
the. ordinance. In the. area, blue' area, .on the: map, that.means .any
of these permitted .uses, assuming 'my .interpretation of-the. covenants
is correct, could be applied for .an a building permit obtained the day
after the ordinance goes .into affect :and there is no subsequent control
by .anybody with .any authority .in the. City of Carmel , short of
minimal requirement compliance .under the terms of the. ordinance.
Let me address some other concerns of the. neighbors, briefly.
Because rezoning is a legislative function of the City Council of
Carmel , those most concerned, the neighboring property owners who
are not residents of the City, feel that they are affectively
disenfranchised. They cannot vote to support or oppose those of you
who. may choose to 'oppose or favor this particular application. I
understant that there As presentation of the. Township on the Plan
. Commission, but they are concerned about the affect of having no
ability to affect the legislative process. Secondly, because the
prospective impact from a financial standpoint is a reduction of property
values of the. residences, the result of this rezone could be
considered a taking of their property, .and without any compensation.
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Thirdly, because the experts who. have participated .in the. development
proposal to date are in the employ of the developer, they are necessarily
advocates for their own plan. Ms. McMullen asked at the Plan Commission
meeting for the. developers to respond to the questions of whether or
not the entrances could be controlled stricly on Meridian Street to
the exclusion of .an .entry on 106th .and Springmill . The. question was
never .answered except by Mr. Klausmier saying he. liked his plan .and
he, defended his plan. It .has not been established that it can be done
with .one entrance .on Meridian Street. We believe that quality .engineer-
.ing will result in a plan being properly drawn .to accomodate .one entrance
on Meridian if that is the. choice that the. developers are left. with.
There are a number of people here this evening who have thoughts that
they wish to express to you as well . And I will ask them,.-:a few
of them who. are part of our group who have asked for me to indicate
that they would like to speak, I will give them .an order for their
appear.ance .and then there may be others as well . But before I do
that .and just a closing comment, I think it's extremely important for
you to .understand what we think is the fundamental issue before you
this evening. Mr. Nelson spoke for approximately 45 minutes and as
he. always does, made a fine presentation in well modulated tones
and was very expressive .on the issues that are 'important to his
client. What -he did not address this evening is what we think is
the, key turning point that you must consider, and that is a fundamental
change in the. philosophy which has stood the. test of time in Carmel
for 15 years. ' tan take you up and down Keystone and Meridian and
through the various streets .and roads of Carmel andpoint to application
after application where a developer with the desire to create a
development has sought the blessings of the. Carmel City Council or
in years .past, the Town Board to rezone ground and that .has almost
uniformly been turned down for the. protection of residence. Many of
you who, are active .in politics today got your start because you were
members of a residential .association who opposed someones effort to
move commercial .into your neighborhood. The people I represent who
are here this evening bought. their property, as many of you did,'in
reliance .on :the,. integrity of the. Carmel Zoning Ordinance. The
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who for years have said in response to questions,: what's
across the street? What's it gonna be? What's the liklihood? What's
the. atmosphere in Carmel? Are they likely to change the zoning? They
haven't been able to honestly .answer that question for years. No, they
don 't change zoning. You can rely upon the..integrity of the. zoning
ordinance. The. abandonment of that principle we have stood for and
which we hope you stand for .on this application will have r devastating
affects for years to come because the integrity which you have stood
for and which we hope you stand for on this application will have been
lost. There is no plan. What you see before you and what has been
presented to you is a request for a blank check. You've not, I may
be wrong, but it would defy. . , imagination; You've not .had rezone
requests come before this City Council where the..only thing demonstrated
to you .was a perimeter survey of a piece of real estate with lines
drawn showing the. perimeters or borders of zoning districts. There
isn't a building shown .on those plans. We don't know where the.
McDonalds will go, nor do you, nor will you have .any control over where
it goes. And we don't .know where the. grocery store or the. laundry will
go, nor do you, because you'll have no control over those uses. We
. ask you at the meeting .on the, 27th to stand for what we think .has been
a long standing .and carefully crafted reputation of this community,
stand for .fine residential family homes. Stand for what we think
Carmel is.
The. persons who, will follow me to the microphone in this order; Dick
Wickliff,. Mr. Harr.ison .Eiteljorg, Jim Culbreth, Jim Baumgardt
Mayor Reiman: I 'm going to let them identify. themselves, if you don't mind, sir.
Doug Church: That's all right. I 'm telling them so they'll know what order I have
them listed. Sally Lieber and Ed Gagnon and there may be- others.
Mayor Reiman: If they will put their hands up each time, this will assist the chair.
Doug Church:, Thank you.
Mayor Reiman: Thank you Mr. Church, very much. I don't want to be redundant, so I 'll
just say at the first, because I do .know Doug for many years, if you'll
just give your name .and if it is difficult to spell your last name,
assist Mrs. .Hancock. Thank you, .and your full address and be sure and
speak loud in the. microphone so everyone can hear.
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Dick Wickliff: Members of the. City Council , Mayor Reiman, I am Dick Wickliff. I
live at 10300 Springmill Road .and as Mr. Nelson so kindly pointed out
to us, that's where the. cornfield is. I live right. across the street
from the cornfield. Izm the chairman of Heartland North. An
Association of homeowners who. are unanimously opposed to this rezone
petition. In a letter that Mr. Rembusch sent me .in December, he told
me that, .in his opinion, this was a responsible petition. I would
ask, responsible to' whom? We the neighbors, do not feel that way at
all . If this site had been zoned for business, were now a business
zoned site, .and the. Welch organization were suggesting that this
S-2 area .and the .natural area be maintained, that that area be set
aside for residential purposes as a buffer to protect our land on :the
other',side of the. street, that would be responsible. But as we all
.know, 'that is not the .case. This land is now zoned residentially .and
what they are requesting is that most of the land be .changed from
residential to business use, leaving a narrow .bank along Springmill
Road .and .inMy `opinion 200 feet is a rather narrow band. That's
.hardly responsible. .0n';the Meridian Street side, the. area that they
are requesting to be zoned B-6, this is presently B-5 zoning. Why
do we want to change that from B-5 to B-6? The..only difference that
I have been 'able to fi.nd .in the. zoning ordinance is the:allowable
building heighth;..: 60 feet to 120 feet. Does this mean thaty they,
that someone wants to put up 120 foot buildings .on that corner?
Considering the. three story buildings .on the. other three corners, I
don't think that's responsible. There's another three story building
. now,under construction at 103rd .and Meridian. A four story building
proposed for the. opposite corner, the. northeast corner of 103rd and
Meridian. Considering all of that, and the fact that to the. west of
that B-6 area, there are wooded homesites, I find it difficult to
accept that that's a responsible position. Finally, how can any of us,
you City Council members, or we who are remonstrators, charge the merits
of this proposal when no development has been submitted? This petition
requests, as Mr. Church mentioned, only a change in zoning. It does
. not commit, .and I studied the blue proposal that you people have, does
. not commit the, Welch organization to any action after the zoning
change is granted. The written proposal doesn't bind them to the.
:suggested or conceptualize development plan. Who will actually develop
the site? That's a question -that needs to be answered. How will it
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be developed? In effect, this proposal asked the .Carme1 .City Counc2l
to legislate a change .in zoning that will result .in ,an overnight .
increase of :several hundred percent .in the, value. of a substantial
portion of this site, over 50 acres. All of this _without .any
commitment on the. part of the. Welch organization. ..And this, .as I see
it, is the..only :question that has been raised. Is this responsible
on the..part of the. petitioner? I think not. Further, would the.
City be acting responsible to accept the. proposal? Thank you.
Mayor Reiman: Thank you Mr. Wickliff. Next person, please. There are a couple seats
free up front for someone. Yes, I 'm sorry, Yes sir. I think some
students left.. Before you begin, if some of you want to move up.
:fu,rther, it doesn't bother :us. or if you want to sit .in the. aisle, it
doesn't bother .us .either if you don't want to stand. Yes sir, your
. .name .and address please.
Harrison Eiteljorg: My name is .Harrison Eiteljorg. I live at 9950 Springmill Road. I
probably am as much affected by this as .any one .in the. room, because
I left.. (Mr. Eiteljorg was quite muffled throughout his presentation;
therefore, some words.may not have been picked up correctly) I'd like
to .ask :while I'm .on the, platfo.rm, Why. they .have selected this resi-
dential , why. they didn't take it to the residential all the, Way down
.Springmill Road? I'd like to .know that just .as a question. hty chief
objection to this whole project is making Springmill Road a commercial
highway .and ruining Springmill (Mr. Eiteljorg was too close to the.
microphone. I lost 3 or 4 words here) . . .always meant to me a
beautiful residential are to live .in. (Muffled here, lost 4 or 5 words)
Mayor Reiman: Sir, just a minute, .can you give me the mike so he. can go over by the, . . .
Jim pull the. mike around.
Mr. Eiteljorg: (A name was given here) Hensel built a beautiful (Words were muffled
here) . . .home (inaudible) . .right here, ( inaudible) . . .that they intend
to rezone commercial . It was building that was years ahead of its
time. It's still there,it's .on, I don't .know 12, 15 acres of beautiful
property, thats gonna be rezone. There's .another very .nice house here.
I don't .know if you realize but there are beautiful homes .on these
properties that they are talking about rezoning. And that house has
a dozen beautiful beech trees. I love it. I 'm crazy about this area.
And I think .. what they are planning to do, .particularly the Springmill
Road traffic .on 'Spr.ingmil l is absolutely criminal .
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Dottie Hancock Sir. Sir, would you spell your last name for me, please?
Mayor Reiman: I 'm sorry this is for the record, audience. Thank you Mr. Eiteljorg
for coming. Yes sir.
Jim Culbreth:. My name is Jim Culbreth and I reside at 353 East 107th Street, Spring-
mill Place here in Carmel . First of all , let me compliment Mr. Welch
and his organization tonight for a beautiful presentation. I think
if I would of had six months. I might. have been able to do the .same
think , but .in respective, I think that they did a nice job. What
I 'd like to say tonight. as .an extremely concerned citizen 'of .Carmel
in Clay Township, I have personally moved five times in the. last
eleven years around these .United States and there are certain key
attributes .and elements you look for when- you move around the. country
such as I .have. I .had the good fortune or .un-good fortune, I don't
.know Mr. Eiteljorg, I sometimes .envy him for. '.not .having the opportunity
to live .in this beautiful ' community for the. last few years that you
. all have. The concern that I have, .and not to .take a labor position.
.on the..issue, but. I think labor .was ahead of its time some 5 or 6
years ago '.when .they .made the. statement "Quality of life.,'- quality of
work life_". I'd like to liken that to 'quality of living -life. or
quality of work life. after work in terms of what we're seeing right.
here. I like to be :able to go home at night .and not worry about .my
kids .and not worry about' the traffic that might affect my kids. The
concern that I .have, .and I don't speak .on behalf of. everyone here
but, is the..incr.ease, significant .increase traffic on a road that is
already, .in 'my opinion because I come out of here every morning, right
here, I have seen personally five accidents in the. last six months
at the corner of :116th .and College. Which is .another .one of the Welch
developments. . I .have seen .in the. last 45 days, a bus over turn, right
here,'.a school bus', as was presented at the very first Plan Commission
meeting and a concern I .have .and I think everyone needs to consider the
prudent judgement .on behalf of all you Council members 'iswhat are we
asking for..rwhen..we allow .an egress area off of Springmill Road. I don't
think .in good conscience that .anyone .can .make that decision. I don't
think years ago, when it was established along this corridor that
.anyone ever thought, and I don'.t think we can consciously think today
:that:that needs' to be a commercial egress area. So I will urge the
Carmel City Council to prudently think about the, issues .and .make your
decisions on those issues. Thank you very .much.
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Mayor Reiman: Thank you sir.
Jim Baumgardt: City Council , Mayor, my name is Jim Baumgardt. I live at 320 'Spr.ingridge
Court.
Mayor Reiman: Springridge?
Jim Baumgardt: Yes.
Mayor Reiman: Thank you.
Jim Baumgardt: I wrote you this letter but I thought it would Maybe be better to para-
phrase it .and over the last ten years, I, like Jim Culbreth,..have been
transferred around quite a bit. Over the..last ten years everytime
that I 've been transferred .back to Indiana •- my wife..and I have chosen
Carmel as the place we .wanted to live. We made that choice for one
very simple reason. And that is that Carmel has had a lifetime history
of protecting .individuals .and their property values. It has been a
community that you can come home to. With this as a standard, I cannot
comprehend what I 've seen over the. last two months, .and that As the
•Springmill rezoning .and a "Keystone at The. Crossing development in the
middle of a residential area. This violates the existing homes which
are not being .taken .into consideration. Crime will definitely increase.
Traffic will be identical to the. unacceptable situation at I-465 and
Keystone, .and I have a difficult time comprehending that we're protecting
the, beauty of the. community by destroying Springmill Road. I object
to Mr. Nelson's statement that this area at this time, is Commercially
• prolific. I believe that this development would make it that way. He
• made comments about sensitivity to •Spr.ingmill Road .and I think the road
is the,.only thing they're sensitivity to; .and I 'm not, I'm not. . . .I
realisticly think that the dirt mound .in the. cornfi.eld .andTI 'm really
. not trying to make light. of this, about the .only way that you wouldn't
see a 120 foot building here is if you layed flat .on your stomach on
Spr.ingmill . That's it, it is nothing without a.protection and I think
that highlights a major concern that we have, .and that is we've given
everything and they've given nothing. We are in favor of ..industry
making money. I think most the people here are that way themselves,
but when somebody has a distinct advantage, that is unfair. When this
started, I decided to go on the. other side of Keystone because I realized
our crew is pretty emotional about the issue. I sent this letter with
a copy of a form. I had absolutely no difficulty going through
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Brookshire, going through Mohawk at the, Crossing, going through
Lakeshore Drive, going through all the. Edens and I have talked to
people who live in everyone of those areas and if I asked them if
their in favor of Carmel turning in to a more industrialized situation
/ than it is now, whether specifically we need another Keystone at The
Crossing .in Carmel , nine to one of the, people that I talked were
not in favor of this. They were in favor of protecting individual
homeowners. I believe that I would not like to be in your chair,
because multi-million dollar decisions are difficult to make. This
is one that all of us will be gone for. Cause the impact of this one,
this little line right here opens up a. bunch of other little lines up
here, .and, .and we'll all be gone. The only thing that'll' be left is
the, record. None of these records will be here. The only record will
be the, buildings that exists. And that will speak for all of us and
then I wanna see people protect Carmel homeowner value. I don't believe
it'll be possible by creating another major traffic hassle, leaving
Carmel , heading south every morning. I just don't see how it's
possible. Thank you.
Mayor Reiman: Thank you Mr. Baumgardt. Hold it a minute,' someones. . . .go ahead sir.
Sally Lieber: Thank you. My Flame is .Sally Lieber. I live at 10750
Mayor Reiman: I 'm sorry, I 'm going to .interrupt you. That could have been' Table or
it's hard for us to hear that.
Sally Lieber: LIEBER. I live at 10750 Springmill Road. Our property's at the corner
of 106th and Spr.ingmil1 . The northwest property and it goes up to 111th.
I 'm speaking for my husband this evening who is seriously ill . He
spoke to the, Plan Commission, but is unable to be here tonight.
(Mrs. Lieber was too close to the microphone to be-able to understand
throughout her presentation) is when he bought. these 80 acres in
1936. He built home My husband serves as a commissioner
for the .Indiana Natural Resources Commission. He is chairman of its
Land, Forests &Wildlife Advisory Council . For over twenty years, he.
has served .as .an appointee of both Democratic and Republican Govenors.
as a member_of-the. Indiana Dunes Lakeshore Commission and as its
Chairman for a number of years. On the national level , my husband
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has served as an appointee of Interior Secretary's Stuart Uball ,
Roger Newton, Cecil , Roger Hickam , James Watt and
He has been Parks Service Advisor for various regional
communities throughout the United Sates. At .last, and far from
least, 'my husbands the grandson of Richard Lieber, builder of the
Indiana State parks system. His credentials as a steward of .
record. About 15 years ago my mother and I and her husband, my
step-father P- gave over 1/3 of their land ,to... . .:
Conservancy. The tract runs north and south from about 1,11th to
106th Streets, share of deer, beaver, owls, woodchucks
and many other examples of wildlife.. As our . . . . , ,
This tract is called Butternut Woods. It was dedicated as a state
natural preserve and is protected by state law Governor Bowen
accepted the land into the natural preserve system withethe comment,
"The. State was indeed proud to look after the natural heritage of so
lovely a piece of land." For the. peace, I'm losing it for: the
..peace''•
and tranquility of . aided by this never to be violated acreage
of Butternut Woods, it is inconceivable to my family and to our
neighbors that commercialization around us �is,even being
considered. I ask that this City Council take a good long look at
:what .is asking to be rezoned. Thank you.
Mayor Reiman: I'm sorry,. I've got two of you coming up, would you sir, go ahead and
you come next if you would. Thank you Mrs. Lieber. �<
{1
Ed Gagnon: Can you hear me?
Mayor Reiman: Why don't you tip'.that up, your tall sir. Thank you.^
Ed Gagnon: My name is Ed Gagnon. I live at 10480 Springmill Road and have lived
there since 1979. I 'm a lawyer with offices at 600 Circle Tower in
Indianapolis, Mr. Church represents all of the neighborhood. I 'm
speaking here for myself. Let me acquaint you with whats across' the :
street. There are seven homes along Springmill Road across from the
subject land. There is the. Eiteljorg residence to the. south,and my
residence to the north and five houses in between. These seven homes
will be the. most directly affected by any development in terms of sight,
sound, drainage, traffic and land values. It`s a homogeneous group.
Contrary to what some may have said or what some may think-. You have
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an industrialist and patron of the arts, a carpenter, a nurse, a real
estate agent, a state employee, a retired couple, a manufacturers
representative, a secretary, a pharmacist and a lawyer. Some have
gardens and some don't. Some have children and others don't. Some
drink and some don't, and some smoke and some don 't. Some are in debt
and others aren't. Some have swimming pools, most don't. Some keep
to themselves and others don't. Some mow their own yards and take
care of their own houses others hire it done. Some spend their winters
in Florida, others gut it out here. Some drive downtown to work, others
stay up here. Some have been divorced, others have been married forever.
Some have animals, some don't. Some vote Republican and some vote
Democrat, and some do both when they can get away with it. But as the
inspector for that precinct, I can attest that all of them do vote. The
other neighborhoods to the north, south, east and west arepprobablyS
mainly concerned with traffic, with the possible acception of Hussey
Lane to the. west of us across Williams Creek. . We are the ones who will
have to deal with the immediate impact that any commercial development
will have on the other side of Springmill Road and the value of the. lane.
We strongly feel, and I think I speak for all of us, that the subject
property ought, to remain zoned as it is zoned, residential . Ideally,
we woUld' like it to remain undeveloped because of the natural beauty
of the. street .and the. ser.enity that the wooded areas on both sides of
the street give us. There are many joggers and bicyclist who use
•
Springmill Road. However, we realize that remaining undeveloped
is impractical now in view of the investment by a developer. Therefore,
the, question now becomes what use is best for the area and is it the
most compatible with the neighborhood, particularly those of us across
the street, keeping in mind their rights also. I have yet to hear
or see any justification for going beyond the 600 foot Meridian Corridor,
with commercial zoning and result in development other than the profit
motive. I 've read the. so-called .Master Plan, the Comprehensive Plan.
I .can't see where it calls for it. The street isn't wide enough for
the. traffic. The proposed buffer isn't wide enought. to shield retail
development. The neighbors don't want it. Those7Pian.Comm ssion
members who voted for it and the. ones I talke to, told me that that's
-14-
the best use for this land, because you don't want multi-family
housing in there. Or so called cheap housing. But I didn't hear
anyone testify on the petitioners behalf real estate or other-
wise nor tonight, that quality housing could not be-built and
maintained in there, With an appropriate buffer next to the
Meridian Corridor. The buffer was proposed, basically 200 feet,
200 feet is represented by the petitioner as sufficient to preserve
the. residential character of Spr.ingmill Road. Apparantly, 'the
Plan Commissionemembers who voted for it felt the same way v.I
say thats no justification for changing the zoning. I say why
keep the zoning as is Put the buffer next to the Corridor
Put housing in there and keep it residential . There are 3
houses on 106th and Spr.ingmill . I assume those will be buffered
by landscaping in some manner. Why can't the development of the .
land west of the. Corridor be limited to residential, whether one
house to the, acre or three when the sewer comes in. Quality
housing, rather that) commercial retail development,-has to
be the most responsible use It seems to me that a fair profit
could be made on that, but the answer to that question, of
course, is again, the profit motive and greater profits come
from commercial development. I have no roblem with
p . profits
Profits are fine, provided it doesn't have an adverse affect
on the neighborhood, such as a commercial would Common sense
tells you that it will have an adverse affect. What happens
with this land will have an affect on the land south of the.
interstate and particularly the intersection of Springmill
Road and 96th Street, as well as the land to the north on the
corner where the three homes are. Setting the right tone
for Spr.ingmill .in the. future is important or else it will be
destroyed as a fine residential street. I 'd like to read to
you now a policy resolution by the Department of Metropolitan
Development in Marion County. . This is dated 1975. Uwould`
like to know what happened to that policy, because it was done
in coordination with the Boone County Plan Commission, .Carmel
Clay Township Plan Commission, Carmel-Clay Township Building
Commission and the Noblesville City Plan Commission. With
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regard to the 96th Street and Meridian Street intersection and
east and west including, I believe Springmill Road. And that
reads, "This property is located adjacent to the intersection
of 96th Street and Meridian Street. In Marion County retail
commercial zoning is located at the intersection of high
density residential zoning and buffering adjacent single-
family homes to the east and west. The zoning classification
for the property in Hamilton County is called Entrance Corridor.
This zoning permits a wide range of commercial and residential.
uses. However, all uses must be reviewed 'by the Board of
Zoning Appeals. The staff su99ests that higher density
residential uses be used as a buffer between Meridian Street
and the vacant properties to the east and west. Lastly, let
me say that this is a highly emotional subject as everyone knows.
At the. Plan Commission level things were said by some and they
may be said tonight out of anger and .frustration Please don't
disregard the arguments of the. remonstrators just because we
are strongly partisan in opposition to the petition or just
because they are emotional or angry, if their arguments are
sound and make sense. It's like asking a jurty to' decide the
case free of emotion, personal bias or prejudice and_the
personalities involved on both sides, but consider if you
can, just the merits. It's impossible not to have some of
these considerations influence you when you make a decision.
That's reality and I 'm not so naive to think otherwise.".. The
reason I mentioned it here is that many, - if not all , who.
remonstrated felt that some members of the Plan Commission
appeared to take an advisary position with us, which are
written and the memories of those who were there, those who
were there will attest. We found ourselves in an adversary
situation not just with the petitioner, which was to be expected,
but with some members of the. Plan Commission, the body that
was deciding the issue, at least at that level . Now when,
that happens, ladies and gentlemen, it destroys confidence
in the institutions and things happen and things may be_:said in
-16-
the heat of battle that might not be appropriate in another
setting. If the remonstrators didn't feel that they were in
such an adversary position at the Planning Commission level
then I submit alot of what was said and how it was said
wouldn't have been said. A compromise was attempted, '
instigated, I think;'_by me and a few others, which failed.
The petitioners are good people. I know some of them and they've
done alot for the, community. But we who live on Springmill
Road are good people too. But unfortunately now, it's all
or nothing on this petition since the compromise failed.
Therefore, I appeal to you as the legislative body, who at
the present time, has control over the zoning in the subject
area, to decide the outcome of this petition fairly and free.
of influence, based upon your good sense as good citizens,
as legislators. If you do that, I will be satisfied regardless
of how you vote. To put it in another way, we just want a
fair shake. Thank you
Mayor Reiman: Thank you Mr. Gagnon. Yes sir.
Larry Frey: Mayor and Councilmen, 'my name is Larry Frey. I'm in an unusual ,
I have d :differentrpcospective of this whole thing than most
of these people because first of all , I'm no where: near .this
development. I live over in Brookshire, at 12409 Lancelot Lane.
But I am a Carmel resident.
Mayor Reiman: Go slower on the address please.
Larry Frey: 12409 Lancelot Lane. On the map it would be just about where
Mrs. McMullen's sitting. Okay, I would like to state out
front, that I 'm no waytied into anybody in any of these groups,
since I don't live anywhere near this. I 'm just a voting,
taxpaying resident of Carmel , and like some of these other
gentlemen that spoke tonight, I too, was transferred into
Carmel . And I was given some options by the real estate
people. I .was told, well you could move to Greenwood and
buy the same house that you can get on the north side and
save $15,000. Oryou could move to an area like Carmel,or
Zionsville was also mentioned, and get a nice residential
community where they've managed to do some zoning that restricts
-17-
•
the shopping to certain corridors, so on and so fo.rth,. and
allows the residential areas to stay residential . The real
estate people toured Greenwood with me and they toured Carmel
with me. And the advantage that Carmel had was the. fact
that they've been able to restrict the businesses to a corner
basically between Keystone and Rangeline Road. The. areas
surrounding that were all residential and created a very,
very nice donut affect. I like it that way and I hoped it
•
could stay that way. Somebody mentioned earlier, I believe
it was the lawyer for the, groupt, that if you look all over
.Carmel there are other blocks of property that may be .''`
susceptable' to zoning of this nature. Let's face it', Carmel
is still very, very rural . You get north of 146th Street
and there's nothing between there and Chicago but a fence.
So there's lots of :opportunity for developers to do this
sort of thing. And I really don't .want to see it happen
from that prospective because the. rule in Carmel is a
residential community. You want a business community?
Let's .call' it downtown :Indianapolis North and we .can do that.
Butif you :want a residential community, let's keep it
residential . One other thing I do want to point out: and I
.know most of you folks probably come up Meridian to get home
at night, but I don`t. I have to come up Keystone and I
believe the. gentleman was talking about accessibility to
major highways so on and so forth, for businesses. Correct?
I 'm starting to find the access to Carmel would be very
restricted. If you hadn't noticed, having lived in several
other large midwestern cities, that most of these cities
have a large south to north expressway. There's 75 in Cincinnati,
71 in Columbus, soon and so forth. Many years ago somebody
planned Indianapolis without a major north and south express-
way. So we're depending upon the circle loop, Keystone and
Meridian. And if you clog these thoroughfares, the access
to the residential community, it will die. If you dontt
believe that, then look at what happenened to the downtown
areas. When they choked off access to those residential areas
-18-
•
by putting in business. In 25 years from now you'll all be
sitting here deciding what you're going to do with the abandon
shell of buildings.that exists surrounding the residential
areas. So as a resident,'that's .my two cents worth'.. •I'm a
little bit less emotionally involved than these people' with
this whole thing. But all I know is that if you doit-'-to them,
the. precedent exists that ' you might do it to me and I can't
have that. Thank you.
Mayor Reiman: Thank you Mr. Frey-. Wait a moment, till , :theYnneed to get
their equipment established for you Yes sir. ?"fi •
Bob Coakley: City Council and Mayor Reiman, 'my .name is Bob CoakTey '.- I reside
at 4972 Riley Mews.
Mayor Reiman: Excuse me, would you spell the. last name.
Bob Coakley: Coakley. Like some of the other gentlemen who.'ve just: spoken
I 've recently made a real estate decision. Four years ago, I
was transferred outof the. Indianapolis area and moved to Tampa.
I think I can answer some of the issues that were addressed 'by
Mr. Frey. Once serious zoning precedent decisions :are-made
as they were .in Tampa, .once you get behind in terms of. planning,
you start to move into rash decisions. In Tampa there was
no, also no, .major direct northbound interstate out of the. City,
creating tremendous' traff.ic problems. There ultimate'decision was
to place a toll road directly through residential communities.
(The..tape ended here and a few words were lost in changing tapes)
. . .in 'the, residential area in Tampa...'you have to go into a
U.S. Home Plan development. Where I lived in Karrow Wood
Village, which is one of the nicer areas on the north side
of Tampa, U.S. homes had over 800 residential dwellings An
one planned community. And the. reason I chose that was because
of consistency .and planned community activities. Otherwise,
in Tampa, I don't know if .anybody has ever been there before,
but you can go from $150000 residents and right next door
you can have a "Little General ", which is equivalent to a
7-Eleven here in. Indianapolis. When I moved to Indianapolis;.
the. second time again, the realtor said you have three-factors
-19-
to consider, location, location, location. What are the. two
most important factors that build location. Number one are
your schools and number two are your zoning principles, and
I 'm here to say that if you violate either one of those, the
people on the. other side of Keystone will be very, upset. We,
the voting constituents, urge you to turn this proposal down.
Thank you.
Mayor Reiman: Thank you sir.
Mary Grein: My name is Mary Grein, .and I live at 12051 Hampton Court.
Mayor Reiman: Pull that down a bit. Thanks Jim
Mary Grein: Can you hear me? That's Grein and 12051 Hampton Court''is
also east of Keystone. Keystone in 116th.. I 'm here
tonight because I wrote a letter to the. Mayor's office .and
I was not responded to, so I thought. the. best thing to do
was to .speak to you directly.. I, too, am concerned about
the. development that is proposed, even though we do not live
nearby. Right now when I go out of my house at 116th: Street
and I .want to go to Keystone at the. Crossing, which .is. 20
blocks away, it takes me 15 to 20 minutes. Prior tomoving .
to .Carmel two years ago, I lived in downtown Indianapolis
and if .I .wanted to go north to go shopping, 86 blocks,.. it .
. also took me 15 to 20 minutes. 'My husband urged us, urged
me to move north because Carmel was a "Quaint Community".
Well,'.sitting .in traffic for 15 to 20 minutes is not quaint.
I have driven on a Saturday morning to run an errand and
I .have literally stopped to call my husband to yell at him
for .making me move to .Carmel.. Because I don't like to drive
.and I really don't like to drive in traffic. And if you
propose to do the same thing on Meridian, I think you're
really in big trouble. I have called the Mayor's office
previously, .and I have asked has anyone planned road accesses
because you are over developing this community. And the
response was, "No, I don't think so." Well, I don't think
so either. And I am a constituent and a voter. .and I think
if you .vote for .this proposal , it's a vote outof office.
-20-
Mayor Reiman: Thank you Mary. Yes Ma'am. Jim, how many copies have you
got? A couple there? She can pass them.
Elizabeth Bodner: I 'm Elizabeth Bodner. I live at 10545 Springmill Road, and
although,. I 'm not on the west side facing the development, I
am in the, top corner of the proposed development. I 'm one
of those three or. four houses you were talking about. I
live at the southwest corner of 106th and Springmill Road.
We built this house back in 1957.. Carmel and Clay -Township
have certainly grown in that time. There have been many
beautiful homes built in the. last 28 years. This house has
been a great place to live and raise a family. Springmill
Road has been wonderful . But now, I have serious concerns
and reservations about a proposed development just south of
my property line. As you know, The. Meridian Street Corridor
is six hundred feet wide. I am opposed to any commercial
development west of that overlay zone. I have great worries
that if you allow commercial use west of that corridor; you
are infringing 'upon the tranquil setting of those luxurious
homes.on Springmill Road, and in addition, to those who are
continuing west to Ditch Road, Township Line Road. In addition,
a commercial development such as this,t.:wouid adversely affect
residential values. The reasons -for this are Obvious. A
development of this type has such inherent problems as parking
lot .lighting :spillover, security problems due to the attraction
of mass numbers of people to the development, and improper
traffic flows. The traffic generated by this development
should loop back to Meridian Street. This site is a prime
commercial development location for many reasons, one of prime
importance is its access to Interstate 465. As this site draws
traffic off the interstate by means of Meridian, it should
mandate that traffic return by way of Meridian. People will
take the path of least resistance and leave from the easiest
exit. If it does come out on Springmill and they want to take
it off by the interstate, seems to me there will be a tremendous
backlog of traffic, even more so than there is now. The developer
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and applicable city and state governments should work together
to resolve the. traffic .probl ems. Possible solutions would
include an access street, traffic lights and/or widening
Meridian Street. Of the many solutions, linking this development
to Springmill Road is not viable. The proposed plan indicates
linking streets within the development area to Springmill .
This would be a catastrophe. Springmill is a residential
street in character and should remain so. Even today, this
beautiful street is gaining an excess of cars. The proposed
development unavoidably, would discharge an unacceptable: .-
number of cars. Springmill must be disassociated an dis-
connected from the commercial area. Springmill should be
residential only without commercial traffic allowed to be
dumped on it. You members have a responsibility to preserve
the, residential character'and::prevent-eommercialAevelopment
from encroaching upon Springmill . There are many luxurious
homes in western Cray Township from Springmill to and beyond
Township Line Road. Do not jeopardize those home values by
allowing this zoning, as proposed, to become passed. You
members of the. City Council have a duty to serve the
of the general public and not yield to the special
interest of a few. To meet with good and conscionable planning
for this area, I ask the. City Council , one,-:;to delay approving
this project until the plans are redesigned to fit within
the. perimeter.s of the. Meridian Street Corridor Plan and two,
the traffic problems that have arisen are solved. I thank
you very much.
Mayor Reiman: Thank you Ms. Bodner.
Guy Grazier: My name is Guy Grazier. I am the state employee that Mr. Gagnon
spoke of. I live, I live and I .intend to stay there. I am
an environmental scientist.
Mayor Reiman: Excuse me, we need your address sir. Thank you.
Guy Grazier: Yes you do. Thank you. It`s 10120 Springmill Road. I have
to make clear that I do not speak for the. State Board of Health.
That's probably very obvious, but I want it on the. record
-22-
because I 'm scared to death, here. I may be looking for a job.
Fortunately, I feel very secure. I am a merit employee, of
course. Ladies and gentlemen, I believe the. entry to the. mind
is with humor. I believe, that as emotional as .1 feel about
this, it is by the same token, the fact, that I have a clear
and present danger to present to you. There is no doubt about
this danger, because in a month and a half: I have been working
on 'my own, although,. I 'm a member of Mr. Wickliff's organization.
And I bow 'my head in shame because for710 years, I .know good
and well I 've lived out there for five, that you have been working,
suffering this, of trying to develop something and consider
what I 'm going to present to you at the same time. I do not
wish for your job. However, I state clearly .and emphatically,
I am a fanatic. I am an environmentalist. I .only consider
what affect a developer has. I travel all over the state. I
consider my background excellent to discuss the. subject that I
am going to bring to your attention and I also feel that, with
'my, I would like ,to be of help to you. That is probably-very
presumptuous of me. But at the. same time, I do this everyday
for a living. And I discovered something that I should of
known along time ago. I've been an employee of the. State Board
of Health for 15 years. I have been a scientist before that
for the. Dow Chemical Company and now in 'my advanced age of 62,
I discover some things. Will this go with me?
Mayor Reiman: May I interrupt you? I 'm, you're helping us smile a bit. Would
one of you men :open the back door for a minute_.. I think it would
be nice, I would appreciate it. That's super. Thank you. I'm
sorry I interrupted you.
Guy Grazier: Oh no, I 'm well rehearsed. I believe that I can be confirmed
in what I say. The interstate (Mr. Grazier was too close to the
microphone and became muffled here) . . . .historically, let us
digress a little historically and I 'll hurry along here. The
. . . . (The name of the Act was inaudible) Act was developed
around 1969. All the lawyers and the engineers and everybody
knows this. What is perfectly self evident, was that this was
not modeled. Go down to the. State and you'll see there's no
-23-
connivance or anything wrong, it's just as every legal;.and
political knows the difficul:ty of regulations. The difficulty
of putting them into effect and what do you have? You have
a long term development of scientific knowledge .and the increased
attention to a scientific details that are gradually brought..
out. For example, I was told in college to always give an
example. This interstate here, the. Meridian Street cloverleaf
is not modeled. You do not know it's environmental impact.
do not know it at Keystone. You do not know it at 421 and
you do not know it all the way around the City. And I'm sure
some people are going to get up and repeat this, but' I'll struggle
with .it. Now well- go on up here and you're going to impact.
Impact all the areas of pollution. Air, water, land with all
due respect to the degrees that I've wattled you develop
around here, the Land Use Commission and the. Technical:'Advisary
people. But what I want you to understand, is in my career,
short career at the State Board of Health, we went from about
3 or 4 little single page regulations to now, I should've brought.
along, it's that thick. The lawyers, I believe, the technical
people will certainly confirm this, that environmental law is
a developing aspect of the. law. I do not know the other ones
but I .have personal knowledge of that through other lawyers
who deal in this aspect. So what am I going to ask you- to do.
Well , if I didn't have some kind of an idea that you might spend
some money, I don't know if you're interested in that and I can't
do it for you, but as your safeguary now, your safeguary to
have your environmental impact modeling so you don't know
anything, you just simply create these mathematical formulas
and low and behold you know exactly what's gonna happen if you
do something. At least the. EPA tells you that, see. Whereas,
if you might want to send a little monitor down there and low
and behold the model says no, it's only one microgram of carbon
monoxide. Then the model says that and then you come along
with your little monitor and say no, it's ten micrograms. So,
you certainly try to do what you can through this mathematical
techniques. They're very complicated. I always forget your
-24-
name? Jim, the. traffic engineer .knows all about this because
he deals in these mathematical models. So what I say tO you
as I 'm looking at this is a broader, broader issue that you've
been short changed, because the. State is just overwhelmed with .
work. Believe it or not when you come down there-'and see us
working. But the development of this, it's hard for me to
explain, has increased as knowledge increases. And what was
the. law of 1970, has now, a scientific studied .knowledge increased,
we .know more about the environment. Therefore, as all this
expensive things are being done and hire a consultant for $30,000
and you'll end up .with an environmental impact in say .one of the.
polluting areas. Maybe air, which I work all the. time with..
So I am concerned for the future. The future, so as if we do
not help you, we are going to drown in our own pollution, re-
gardless of what it is. And yet you see dedicated people,I
know way fault the. State Highway Department because there's
not a model there that I would- think of faulting you for not
.having model for some other place. But it shows you what
happens tO you in pollution. And for example a very simple
calculation which I don't want to get in trouble with because
it .can be refuted to a certain extent. Your shoving this mess
of cars; yes that's 106th, and you put100 tons, that's minimus,
of 'hydro-carbon into the. air. Now, that may or may not be
dramatic, it may not, it won't wither the trees. Remember
Rachel Carson? I still see alot of cardinals out where I live.
The. birds didn't die. I don't know why, but they didn't. So,
I can 't say the. trees are going to wither along here. I hope
I 'm making my point, and I promise you as a concerned citizen
that you can, pardon? I want you to call on me for .any service
I can be, I don't know .anthing else. I 'm just a fanatic
environmentalist. And you throw a piece of paper on the floor
and I 'm going to get after you. And truthfully, I do work at
the grass roots level . If you were to call me and say somebody
next door is painting their car and I want to know what their
doing. Can you do something? I 'll be the man that interviews
you. Or I drive down 116th and I see somebody burning tires
-25-
he or she, they're in trouble. That is the. level I deal with.
Also, I deal with the level of large companies, by the .nature
of what I do. I enjoy my work with Seagram's down .in. . . .(voice
trailed off)., I .enjoy my work with them. And I think, truthfully
and honestly you have a tremendous job to do. This is, not
flattery, it's a fact. And I don't think you get enough help.
And I like what Mr. Gagnon had to say; you know. I liked what
Mr. Eiteljorg had to say. But I, know matter what you do, I'm
giving away all my weapons, I 'm going to stay there. '~I'm going
to stay there. It's 3 1/2 acres, my wife. is the. realtor."
Everyday somebody says I want five acres of stream in back,
lots;:.of trees, close to a school , and I ..have that. . I'have that.
So I .know whereof she speaks. I love my neighbors. We're all
in this together and it's beautiful . You come out there over
the hill over the bridge, on Springmill , and there you are. So
for what it's worth, I think you've been short changed a little
bit on the environmental studies and I hope to be of whatever
use you see fit to make of me. I've brought along, which you
will get, but it does show you the indepth, this is a'drawing
document.- It happened to be for the. Keystone Corridor,- way
on the other side of town. But if you, if everything works
for me, because I have to do this on my own, some kind of
document, sbmewhat like this, you're looking at thousands and
thousands of dollars here. But the modeling people at State
Board of Health are always there analyzing documents for the.
Department of Transportation & Highways and one thing I would
like to mention; the EPA has seen fit to lump, you have Marion
County, this is Marion County, Hamilton County, Hancock, Boone,
Johnson, I believe Morgan as affected by this central city of
ours. I don't know if everybody is familiar with that or not.
It's,.. what-�it involves is the affect of the, on the atmosphere
of any development in Marion County effects these surrounding
counties. This is monitored and therefore, is provable in
a certain extent. So, I do thank you for your kind attention.
-26-
Mayor Reiman: Excuse me, please. Hang on sir. Mr. Grazier, thank you and I
do think it is a good note you have a marital sense of humor.
That's a compliment. I, the chair calls for a 5 minute recess,
, no more, no less, please.
(A five minute recess was taken here)
Ed:Gagnon:, I'd like, if you please, I_Would like before I have to move across
the. street to the cornfield, I 'd like to set something. straight.
for the. record.
Mayor Reiman: I 'm sorry; you 'll have to wait till after the. break. Thank you
sir, I'm trying to run a good show.
Ed Gagnon: Thank you.
(following the recess)
Mayor Reiman: I hope you will forgive us for drinking. There's a little
convenient store around the corner and if .anybody else wants
to, feel free, We don't want to appear. rude. We couldn't buy
for everybody, as a matter of fact, I dontt .know who. we owe
for this. Probably the. City Attorney. The. Pr.esident? 1Is that
how he. gothis votes tonight? I would just like to say, and I
feel that I 'm speaking for this body, before you, that I think
we're all conducting ourselves well . You, the petitioners and
ourselves.::,.Makes: for. a:good".-eveniog. That's what this country's
all about. Alright, now, we'll continue. Yes sir.• Even (Mayor
Reiman's voice became muffled here) I still feel it's a good
meeting.
Randy Shields Madam Mayor, Council Men,-...and Council Women, Ay name is Randy Shields.
My address is 4322 Powder Horn Court. That is approximately 6
miles east of this development. I 'm here tonight to talk
to you about my concerns over commercial building that has
already occured in this town and is proposed in the. limits
of the. Carmel-CTay Township. This concern arises out of living
.in different areas of the United States with various zoning
restrictions. I consider, out of all those places, that some
of the, developments here in the: north side of ..Indianapolis, and
particularly the, Castleton Square area, Keystone and 465 as
already mentioned, and potentially this area maybe large mistakes
in the. development of a community. Working for a large corporation,
my family and I, like others in this room already up here
have been moved a number of times. We've lived in the nd.i ,;.;;
Indianapolis area once before and upon moving back about :a
year. .and a .half ago from a small quaint town in Massachusettes
with very strict zoning codes,1looked at Carmel because of
the..past reputation it :had. One that .has a high quality of
life.. Good school , attractive, well planned neighborhoods,
convenience and other things. So far, I feel the schools
have continued to remain strong, always finishing in the
upper percent of the. state. As to attractive, well planned
neighborhoods, well since actually building our house 18
months. ago, 'my family and I can no longer feel totally
positive towards this. This City is expanding too quickly
and losing control of the:lbuilding process. A personal
example of this is 'my residence in Blue Creek Woods.
Eighteen months. ago, we moved into our house which is only
the. fourth house out of sixty to be completed .in this new
neighborhood. Today, I believe, there are only four lots
left.. Certainly alot of growth .in a short period 9f :time. ,
Alot of homes to .inspect and approve. InJact too many to
be 'adequately covered 'by the. building inspectors office
.and .enforce strict building codes. As a result, my family .and
I have suffered negative consequences. As well as the
neighbors in .my neighborhood who. have .had other problems.
After futile attempts to correct the elevation in drainage
problems witht the two builders involved, as well as, the
developer, :and after numerous phone calls and written
requests-in December, in September to the City Building
Inspector requesting help, as of last week I am finally
beginning to get help and proper enforcement of.the. City
Building Inspector.'s Code. I don't see an .end to this mess
for at least .another six months. This is indeed, a_ very
irrating situation which could have been prevented if .Carmel
was .capable of .handling the. situation at the' time'with the
correct number of people to evaluate these situations. If
Carmel can't oversee 'my simple obvious residential drainage
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problem and elevation problems, how can a new commercial ' E2
development on Meridian be properly evaluated and built with
all of it's potential building and drainage problems. No one
will want the headaches of building or moving into a City
with such little control of its building codes or expansion
plans. Carmel 's reputation may already be starting to change.
The other aspect to the quality of life besides good neighbor-
hoods and schools is convenience. I agree with others as
already cited tonight, that progress and growth are already
creating change in Carmel . Keystone has become a nightmare,
•
especially during the week day and on Saturday mornings. It
takes much too long. Fifteen minutes is exactly what I 've
timed also, to get from certain areas north of 465 and
down through that traffic jam, or north at night. If the
proposed commercial development on Meridian and Springmill -
Road is allowed to be build, Carmel residents again, will
have to suffer these changes and traffic jams-on Meridian,
Keystone and other streets. *My fellow residents, as well as
'myself, will have to put up with many long lines and other
problems associated with this 'type of building. People may
well have to choose further and further west to avoid' the three
previously mentioned interchanges. As a resident of,Carmel ,
concerned about this and future developments around 'my own
subdivision, please guarantee your current residence who are
the, fu.ture of Carmel , a standard of excellence and therefore,
a quality of life prior to allowing any further large scale
developments that will alter our quiet and popular community
Thank you.
Mayor Reiman: Thank you Mr. Shields. Yes sir.
Jerry Vest: Your Honor, members of the. Council , my name is Jerry. Vest. I
live at 10951 Cottingham Drive. It's in the subdivision
known as Meridian Suburban and I don't believe any 4 my fellow
neighbors have spoken here tonight. I cannot really speak as
a representative of them but as a member of the neighborhood
having spoken with others. But before I get into my points of
concern, I did want to thank you as a group for the: attention
'
you've given speakers here tonight, speaking in opposition.
Unfortunately, I 've taken part in the open session given by
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•
the Plan Commission. I did not feel that the same amount of
courtesy was always extended to all the speakers that evening.
And I think those speakers here this evening do appreciate
your attention to our concerns. One major concern, in speaking
with my neighbors in my neighborhood, that we do have, the
fact that we are within the. Corridor itself, our small neighbor-
hood, immediately west of Meridian, directly south of 111th.
Its' really north of this particular map, is the. isolation ;'
that we may be,faced with, with the introduction of commerp`
cialization on Springmill Road. If the commercial entrance
upon Springmill Road is allowed, it would perhaps have the very
high liklihood of posing a precedence that would,, in, the long
run, stump residential growth along Springmill Road:`„- It has
been pointed out, it's been very well doomed so .far, and then
open the. flood .gates for commercialization north of this area
in question at this point. Obviousley, alot of attention has
been given by you as a Council to the development of .the
Meridian Corridor. I would hope as concerned citizens of
Carmel .and .as our guardians in Carmel-Clay Township that you
consider Springmill Road as .a residential corridor. ' One that
should be protected. And speaking of members of the. Council ,
after the Planning Commission meeting last year, I asked
what was the:logic, really, in extending'-this commercial
area to Springmill? And one gentlemen mentioned, what alter-
natives are available. And the. point .was brought up, that
there isn't needed a buffer between the obvious commercial
development along Meridian. But as has been pointed out,
there are homes along this area at this point. And this
would tend to suggest the buffer is present there. In rezoning
this to commercial from residential would destroy this buffer,
and I would not think that you would want the image to
develop for:;Carmel-as being a City that would allow zoning
for destruction of homes. Thank you very much for your attention.
Mayor Reiman: Thank you Mr. Vest.
Wally Boysen: Mayor and members of the. Council , my name is Wally Boysen. I
live at 10991)Srpingmill Lane. Think of the berry and then
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take it off. If I were to say a lot, I would probably just
be repeating what alot of other people have said. The only
point that I would like to make is that when the Planning
Commission met the vote was 8 to 5. Which to me was a very
big surprise. I felt, as a couple of others in this room
have indicated, that we didn't .have the listenership that
we were hoping for, but I was pleasantly surprised to see
that the vote was really as close as it was. And that would
indicate one very important thing to me, that the members
of that group had some very serious, reservations about this
project. Even though it was voted in, almost 40 percent
of that group of people could not .in their own .self interests
or their own well being support that particular poster. Thank'you.
Mayor Reiman: Thank you-Mr. Boysen:
Mike Perry: My name is Mike Perry, I live at 341 Spring Ranch Court. I
was a little late in arriving this evening and hope I 'm not in
a bind, but as I understand it, there has not been a traffic
study done .on Springmill Road. (Mr. Perry's voice was too close
to the. microphone and became muffled here) ... .-apologize if I'm
late. But to me that _is a very serious question. (words were.
muff.1ed)... .Indiana athlete .and we tried to gon .on bicycle
ridings and we found if ,I was able to get .on Springmill And
go north on 116th and we turn back to 111th prior to a quarter
of seven An the morning, that there was some liklihood I might
return without being run over 'by an automobile. (mufled words
here) . . . .to go :bicycle .riding. Hopefully, I can buy an .indoor
excercycle, but that's not important. My other point that I
wouldtliketo make and I don't want to be too corny with the
corn field garbage in the, west, but I have this question, I
am in the. investment business and what has been presented to
me this far this evening is a request to change the zoning.
That would not be unlike my coming to my clients or 'my people
and say "How would you like to buy a blind (muffled). ; WouId
you like to give me some money so we can go do what you think
we ought. to do with your money? It's not our money, or is it?
Thank you.
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Mayor Reiman: Thank you Mr. Perry. Jeanne, You don't need to spell your last
name, Jeanne.
Jeanne Book: Ok. I live at 12550 Springmil1 Road, Jeanne Book. I, tonight, am
representing the Clay West Property Ownersr,Association 'and we
support the. Heartland people. Heattland North, they're calling
themselves. And probably when we formed our organization,
called it an umbrella. There are several other housing
organizations, I guess, I could say I 'm speaking for them too.
Those areas up and down Williams Street west, those areas west
of Williams Street. What I 'd like to say and I '11try not to
be redundant about these wonderful points all these other people
have made, I have been very admiring about Marion County's
solicitousness of how they developed between 86th and 96th.
They were much closer to residential . Had much less land to spend
anCit could of been very tempting to them to put buildings
much higher than 3 to 5 stories which they have done..` They.
have low key lighting. They seemed to be quite aware that
they could ruin wonderful neighborhoods both east and west
of Meridian Street, but they have been, I think, quite good
about that. We have a much bigger area here for the developer
to use along the. Corridor. He certainly is not going to be
restricted, too much, in putting in very substantial size
buildings in ,the. overlay zone. So we feel that there certainly
is room here for giving the residents their just deserves, as
well as, getting what he needs out of this property. We also
fell , too, that this is a very crucial time. Right here and
now, we're going to be deciding, in effect, what will be done
the next time this comes up. We're going to be very concerned
about the corners of 116th and Springmil1 . Eventually 131st and
Spr.ingmill . We, fortunatley, do have a new housing thing
going up at 136th and Springmil1 . But it's quite clear that
residential has already been established with the area at
111th.. We have a break there until we get up past 116th, we
get to Springmill , oh, they call it Williams Creek Farms and
that is a lovely area. We do have on the west side of Springmil1
Road substantial properties that are quite likely to be very
beautiful residential areas. We feel .enough'_precedents have
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been set. That we have justification in expecting some protection
from our deciding body's here, that would be fair to us. We
hope to be fair to the developer too, but we, this is one of
the, things I'd like you take into consideration, if Marion
County can do it, well, I think. we can too.
Mayor Reiman: Thank you Jeanne.
Betty Hawkins: Mayor Reiman, members of the Council , my ..name is Betty Hawkins.
I live at 10240 North Delaware. I represent the Northridge
Homeowners Association and just .want to make a quick comment
that we wholeheartedly support the. Heartland North Association
in this and just in our point of view, I 'd like ,to make just
.one obser.vation .and that is about traffic. Anyone who thinks
that our traffic between Meridian and College on,103rd won't
be affected .by this, is insulting our intelligence. It':will
absolutely be increased. People: will; scramble to find any way
out of there that they possibly can. Just standing outside
during the intermission, I heard a lady comment that she, already
: used 103.rdto avoid Meridian, at this point, and there's
nothing there yet. We're already prepared for what we will
have to face .and .with what's going .on in the overlay zone. None
of us .in a -million years never considered something this big
that the people,-:particularly, I suppose from Carmel will be
using .anything to avoid Meridian Street. We support this
and we feel , as Mrs'. Book said too, that this is going to set
a precedent for land around us also and we will fight, just as
hard as they do to protect ours also. Thank you.
Mayor Reiman: Thank you Mrs. Hawkins. Gene
Gene Newcombe: Mayor, members of the. Council , 'my name is Gene' Newcombe:`. 'My family
and Illive at 10510 Hussy Lane in Carmel and I had not prepared
to 'speak this evening but I thought. with all the marvelous humor
I couldn't possibly get a good chance to guide `my friend down
here, :Jim, for his wonderful presentation, super job 'Jim, and
explain a couple things that, what we've been doing since 1960.
We came here to establish a business, the House of Meridian
Furniture Company, that's a plug', and many of you have been very
kind and supported our company.-.We do interior design work so
therefore, aesthetics is the. prime part of our life.. Aesthetics
•
-33-
is very important to it!'sCar.mel area cause thats why one of
thre reasons, why we live where we live. It's quiet and serene
and very lovely, and many of you people on this side of Meridian
also live in very beautiful , lovely areas because several of
you, we helped with your furniture. A few years ago we had whay
they called high interest, I think it was '79, '78, something
like that. I had a loan going at one of these companies, what
was it called, I think, Fidelity Bank, thats right. We had
a loan going at Fidelity Bank and cars weren't selling so well
at that time, I remember, and one of the people ontthis Council
when really things got tought, wrote a letter and that person
was so concerned over how we felt and what werwere doing as a
•
family and what we were doing as business people, and what they
might do to help us. One of these people sitting right here
tonight. So we do, ladies and gentlemen have a very concerned
City Council. Extremely concerned. And we would be short sided
and we would have an irrelovancy here if we did not claim then
as a really big part of our community and part of our friendship
circle. Now the other side of the coin is, they have an awful
lot to. lose 'by losing our good fellowship. I'm a commercialist.
Right? You own a store, you're a commercialist. That part of
it,has another story. I would no more think of putting my
furniture company on Brumley, where is it Judy? Where do you
live? Brumley Way. We're doing two homes on Brumley Way. Now,
in fact I was over there two days ago. I had thought about
possibly putting .my store on Brumley Mews, but I don't think my
people would want my store there. So I have taken the opportunity,
always, to have my commercial side of 'my life, in a commercial
area. Since 1960 we had the store at 234. One, commercially
zoned. Now we are on:_Rangeline Road commercially zoned. So we
have a separation of commerciality and aesthetic daily living.
Which is very important. It is important to you. It is important
to you. So this is what we're talking about the vitality and
the integrity of our community, and this is where I sort of put
the, question to you people and to you. What are you going to do?
Are we going to allow total commerciality to take over our
beautiful communities? Or are we going to stick with the fact
that where we live is very important to us. Where we job,
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•
•
where we go to school , where we go to church. These places are in
great reserve, because they're very important to us. We. can say,
yeh, ia development is this, I heard it the. other evening (became
muffled here) sure I'm all for progress. Meridian should be
developed. It'.s a wonderful , wonderful street as I worked
individually (words were muffled) . . . .that I presented to you
about three or four weeks ago. But we have to take advicement here,
ladies and gentlemen, about what we're talking about between
aesthetics and commerciality. And we just can't let -this
thing drift., drift, drift.. When Springmill goes, Carmel 's shot.
.And as I said to a letter to the editor aridza'letter_to you,
ladies and gentlemen, we don't want to face another Broad.Ripple.
Some smart aleck .called up the other day and said what's the
matter with .Broad .Ripple. He's right, there's nothing wrong
.
with Broad Ripple. It's wonderful . But they do have'sort of
a mixture down there that .many people, -as I understand, have moved
away from. So I don't want to move away from 'my sweet, neat
little house .on Hussy Lane. We do alot of decorating with the
color peach,. but if you've ever seen eight. billion watts of
peach .lfight..in the. sky,. that's too much.. We do alot ofedesign
work with green. .First of all, as you guys .know, it's money .
But to the other side of the. aesthetic, it's grass and trees
and stuff. .like that. Thank you.
Mayor Reiman: Thank you Gene. Now sir, wait. There is a rule that will apply
to members of the Council . Nobody gets a chance to speak' twice
until everybody else has had their chance. Council also knows
that 'rule and abide .by it even though know one says it. Now, if
you would please. Is there anyone else who: would like to speak?
Yes sir. And when they're all done, you may come up again.
Richard Albright: My name is Richard Albright. I live at 10235 North Delaware,
Indianapolis. I 'll probably mangle it, but' there is a Dutch
proverb that says something about, "He who -knows better, should
say so", and I've heard several things this evening that I think
are not exactly right. First of all I 'd like to say.that my
primary concern with this, since I live in that neighborhood,
is the. traffic. It has been stated that-.the Comprehensive Plan
.says 'that there should be development where there is infrastructure
to support it. And I contend that there. is not infrastructure
-35-
in place to support this development. According to the petitioners
engineer, the estimated traffic today on U.D. 31 , is 34,000 vehicles
per day. According to the same engineer, this site will generate
23,000 trips per day; 17,000 of those will come from the area
which is being requested for rezone west of the corridor. Now
in other words, you are being asked to convert from residential
to commercial , an area that will generate traffic equivalent to
half of that existing on U.S. 31 today. Now think of that That
is tremendous. There is already a great case of that on' U.S. 31 at
465, both directions, morning and evening. There is new develop-
ment being built on the east side of Meridian. At 103rd, four
office buildings just getting started on the south side, another
office building being started .onthe-north side and andadditional
development on the way between 103rd and 106th. Now this all
suppose to feed onto Pennsylvania and come out on 103rd, you'll
go east or west. There is a large portion of undeveloped land
between 465 and Meridian and College and Northridge Village.
Developers are already approaching property owners to sell that
property for commercial development. Then that will go there,
it will go to College north to 465 to 103rd and Meridian. The only
place it can go and nothing will be able to move. It's just a
fact of life, you can only shove so much stuff .through: a horn
and we're already shoving more stuff through that horn than it
wants to take. So think about what 23,000 trips per day are
going to do to that intersection. There is not where near
this space to improve that intersection that there is at 116th
and Meridian. And a very sophisticated double left turn lane
improvement has been made and that has helped alot. But they
still need a rent-a-cop to get traffic out of Fidelity Plaza in
the evening. Now are they gonna put a rent-a-cop out on Meridian
to get traffic in .and:'out of this development? Is a mere traffic
light with left turn arrows going to do it? I don't really think
so. You're being asked to approve something which the infra-
structure will not support. There have been some comments made
about the fact that the. Comprehensive Plan envisions this and
supports it. As one who has some familiarity with the,Comprehensive
Plan, one we point out that the Comprehensive Plan is referred to
-36-
as a concept plan and it talks about, generally,wWhat will go
in the. areas. Whenever anyone comes before you .and says that a
line on the. Comprehensive Plan map shows that this is a dividing
line between one area and another, that is not what .was intended.
We intentionally, on the. Comprehensive Plan avoided recommendations
to rezoning. Now what happened when the. ComprehensivePlan
got into this phase :was that there was recognition that ,Meridian
was going to be commercial . There was recognition that:the .area
west Of Spr.ingmill (the. tape .ran out here .and words were lost
during the change) . ..between the. estate 'type development in the
west .part of the. Township and the Meridian Corridor, ther.e
heeded to be extra special concern shown,vvery extra special
controls exercised. There are several areas like thain the
Township. Mr. Kiphart coinvphr.ased the: transition area, because
nobody could come up with a better idea of :a name for the."areas
which deserve extra special consideration. But there was aJ
absolutely. no .intent to equate that with:::the. B-3 zone or any
other specific zone. Now what happened was., the. very small -
.part that you .saw was the. artist for the. consultant`just drew
lines along that area and looped them. But there was not.intent
that the Meridian Corridor :was suppose to be extended 'or.-th*
commercial ar.ea .was suppose to be extended to 'Springmill Road.
•
The concept :was to show a protective .band between the Meridian
Corridor and Spr.ingmill , .and I think that needs to be understood.
You will be receiving other request for rezone in the. future and
the Township .and we just cannot let people say that this line
on the..map says that the Comprehensive Plan requires this or that
because these are concept and very broad concepts. But we did
.once protect the. r.esidential areas. I think that the point has
• been .made that Marion County .has done a' pretty good job of
developing their Meridian Corridor with low rise buildings and
with restricting the area to specific zones on both sides of
Meridian. And yet they have, with that development been able
to do a very good job of completely messing up the traffic on
Meridian. The covenants say that. the. Plan Commission will have
authority to review architectural design, lighting and.signage,
but not development plan. We found that out when a development
started north of 116th Street. The same covenants were made and
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we can look at the. pre-elevations and renderings. We can judge
the type of brick and the size and color of the signs •and the
landscaping around the transformers, but when it comes to
development plan it was. pointed out that.that was not appropriate
because that .was never given to the. Plan Commission. Now I
would suggest that since you are being .asked to amend the zoning
. ordinance, that if complete corridor controls were going to be
extended tothis area, that when you amend the zoning. ordinance •
you could extend the Meridian Corridor and take that in; you
wouldn't just have to change th zoning. And that way you
would do away with the covenants, whether or not theyre int
the record and you would just extend the control that goes with
the. Meridian Corridor. But that has not `been requested. • Every-
body knows that• the Council• does not always follow •the recommend:.
.dations of the. Plan Commission. Sometimes that's hard to
understand. For example, in'-the. Switches .case, a request was
• .made to rezone that to B-7. A zoning category that has very
complete control , very complete review. It .was for a relatively
• small development, .in .an area along way from .an .interchange. An
.
area without, with not .any Way near the. complexity of this and
for some reason the. wisdom of the. Council , they refused to rezone
it, even though it .had been recommended by the. Plan Commision.
Now I .have noway of .knowing the. difference ,in the pressures
between, :tha.t .case .and this, but I think that you certainly can
think independantly and in this case I think you:should do alot
of that. The. right. of a person. to buy .and develop property
certainly should not take precedence over the right of the people
who,.have lived there for a. long time. My younger daughter, in
her very concise .way, after the .last vote .on this, said, "What
reason did the. people who. supporte'd it and give who. are voting
for it?" And I thought.,and .said they never gave. any reasons.
And I guess those who:were opposed .gave a lot of reasons .and those
who were •fo.r it, never .gave .any. And- I guess in comtemplating
that, that question .and I can just say well the majority thought
they were doing what .was good for us. And I• would like for you
to seriously consider what you think is good for us .and if you •
-38-
vote for it, I 'd like for you- to tell us why you think .it's good
for us. Thank you.
Mayor Reiman: Thank you Dick. •
Elizabeth Frenzel : I 'm Elizabeth Frenzel , and I live at 11960 Springmill Road which
is north of this proposed development and I, everyday, have to
deal with 116th and Meridian. And Springmill Road is a part 'of
my life.. I live on a farm and -.I ride up .and down Springmill
Road alot and the-pastAwo years I 've not been able to use that
property. And it's an extremely :dangerous road. I don't run on
the. road .anymore. I don't bike on:.the: road anymore, I don't
ride .on the. r.oad. It's just that it .hasn't done anything at-all
for theccommunity.in that area We can't vote for the� City.
Council members nor the:Mayor, but we're as much a part of the.
community as everybody else is and>we hope that you'll :all
consider: how we feel .in that ar.ea .and what it will do to the
future of the. residential area, and what will happen west of
Springmill lip116th Street and over to 421 and even carry on to
Zionsville which is where I work and it's just, it doesn't make
a whole lot of sense to alot of .people .in the. area. And I hope
you'll all.-consider how we feel .and that it's extremely important
to .us. I've .lived .in .Carmel for 126 years. illy family's owned
• property there since 1925 or '29 and 'my grandparents don't think
that it's the: greatest thing. And I just hope you all pay .
attention to what we say and how. we feel. Thank you.
Mayor Reiman: Thank you Ms. Frenzel : At this point we will continue,' but I
am going to ask that perhaps your remarks might be new remarks.
Try not to be redundant. Let's keep in mind that we have a rebuttal
time for the. petitioners and then keep in mind that this body of
City Council Councilors has no time to talk. And we wanted to
leave some time when their not too sleepy to talk. Any other
hands please, sir.
Bill Bahret: 'My name is Bill Bahret. I live at 517 West 93rd Street. To avoid
duplicating any of the. previous arguments, I 'll just address my
comments to the affect of the. proposed development on bicycling
in ;the. area. Some of the. previous speakers have commented about
•
_39-
the affect on bicycling for some of us who live in the immediate
area, but it may not be apparant to you that the affect is on
all residents of Carmel,'-Tarticularly your bicyling community.
I 'm a member of DIBA, the. Central Indiana Bicycling Association
and I 'm here just to point out that Springmill is a regular route
for CIBA. It is used on Monday,''Wednesday .and Friday nights for
evening rides .and. on_.Saturday mornings for training rides. This
is not only recreational riders but competitive riders. It is
also a corridor into and out of .Indianapolis and obviously, Carmel
used 'by CIBA members and others and .marked as such on CIBA's map
for bicycle riders. In some, the affect of this develoment on
Springmill is going to .have .ramifications .on your .bicycling comur!
•munity, which is .an impor.tant .part of your community, .far beyond
those which you might:imagine just from listening to comments
of people .on Spr.ingmil1 Road and the. immediate area. Thank you.
Mayor Reiman: Thank you Mr. .Bahret. Any other hands? I always .wait a few minutes
cause sometimes it .takes alot of courage to come up tb `the.
microphone, I remember that 'myself along time ago. Oh,' yes..
I'm sorry; you wanted to come back. You didn't put that up
very high.- ::You're testing 'my 'eyes. Yes sir.
Ed Gagnon: Mayor Reiman and members of the. City Council , I 'll be very brief
because I spoke before. First of all I want to 'apologize to
Mr. Grazier for not referring to him as an environmental scientist.
That`:.he :is. I .was .caught up the written examples of the
characteristics of the. neighborhood seven houses across the street,
and when I sat down I realized I didn't make the point I wanted
to .make. And that is that we represent all aspects, all ends of
the, social , political and economical scale. We're pretty varied
for such a small group. We want to be treated'the. same as you
all re treated in the. Town of .Carmel . Whether we 're talking
about police protection, schools, roads or zoning. We're a
typical street in atypical Indiana community, including the.
Town of .Carmel . And finally I'd like to say, I may not be very
popular by saying this but I welcome, personally, R.V. Welch
Investments, Inc. in the. neighborhood on the. Corridor and if
they .want to go into the. housing business, that's fine. Thank you.
Mayor Reiman: Are we ready to continue now? Is everybody alright? I 'm not
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closing. the public hearing yet.' NowA do _want`'to stress something
I 've been watching here. The petitioner, the attorney for the
petitioner, James Nelson took 45 minutes in his opening presen-
tation. We heard from 23 remonstrators tonight and they took
2 hours and 20 minutes. It is now time for rebuttal time for
the petitioners for the rezone please.
Richard Rembusch: Thank you Mayor Reiman, members of the Council . For your. record
my .name is Richard Rembusch. I'm Vice President and General
Council for R.V. Welch Investments.
Mayor Reiman: Why don't you take a minute and pull the microphone up for that
tall , like I mentioned to some earlier people.
Richard Rembusch: I 'm a licensed attorney with .my office at 11550 North Meridian
Street in .Carmel . You've heard from a number of opponents this
evening and mny of them have been eloquent. We certainly do not
question their good faith or sincerity and we respect,`^their: right
to appear, but we do disagree with them. I t was stated that
there has been no reason given to vote in favor of this project.
The reason we submit is a very basic one. That this project
represents the highest and best use of this real estate. The
opposition, I can tell you, was impressive as the parade of ,
objectors continued and applause followed each one, I found
myself catching myself a couple of times so I wouldn't applaud
along and I really do congratulate them for a fine presentation.
There were, there were a number of comments that were made that
we would like to respond to and at the same time we won't try to
respond to each and every comment that was made because we believe
that answers to a number of points were contained in the
materials- that were presented to you and are in'the. record
with the, City. The, perhaps the most pervasive, recurring theme
that was a matter of concern was that the approval of this rezone
request will result in an adverse impact on'the. property values
of the, remonstrators. I'd like to introduce Richard E. Nichols.
Mr. Nichols is an appraiser of vast experience. He has been
recognized as an expert witness in court testimony on numerous
occasions in 13 different counties in Indiana. Twenty different
counties in Illinois. Fourteen different counties in Wisconsin
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and the federal court in Indiana. He is a member of the Institute
of Real Estate Appraisers with the designation IREA. He is
Senior Real Estate Appraiser, Designation SREA in the. Society of
Real Estate Appraisers. He is a Senior member of the American
Society of Appraisers carrying the designation ASA. The quali-
fications are very extensive. Mr. Nichols has a reputation of
.uncompromised integrity .and I would like to ask him to speak to
this issue.
Mayor Reiman: May we have your address please, sir?
Richard Nichols: Yes, 'My name is Richard E. Nichols. I have an office at6320
North Rucker Rd. , Indianapolis, Indiana.
Mayor Reiman: I 'm sorry, I would also like your residential .
Richard Nichols: 6315 Colebrook Drive.
Mayor Reiman: Thank you. Indianapolis?
Richard Nichols: Indianapolis; yes. I have been an appraiser of real estate for
some 25 years .and .an .analyst of same. Originally, I started
.back with the Indiana Highway Commission in * early years of
'employment,. prior, I might add when I-465 .was a reality. But
in regard to this particular petition I was employed 'by R.V.
Welch & Associates, Mr. Rembusch., I' first met with them on
January 2, regarding their application for rezoning. Their purpose
and their question .with me was to address two issues basically. .
One was the propriety of the proposed project envisioning
highest and best use. The. second question was what that
highest .and best use impact might. be in the. surrounding properties.
With .particular concern given to the. sensitivity of the area.
This is a unique' area. All. real estate ( Mr. Nichols became
muffled here) issue. . . real estate is certainly no exception,
the. entire area. In the course of 'my assignment, I did review
the 'applicants application for rezoning .including the: supplemental
.and :suppor.ting information that was subsequently, tendered which
.included the traffic .analysis and a break down of that traffic
.analysis. I further examined the. applicants agreement regarding
the covenants, the excludable areas or uses. The agreements
regarding the. signage and architectural review landscaping and
so forth, all' in the. context, I might. add, of the. history of
proven developer within a large scale development project potential .
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I should add that the potential of highest and best use for this
real estate.and the area in general did not originate with R.V.
Welch & .Associates. It really initiated and originated back a
number of years ago when I-465 became a reality. That set the.
state without question. To that .end it .has been mentioned in
concern tonight. about the infrastructure not being .in 'place
. adequately at this time to accommodate traffic flow.:. The Indiana
Department of Highways is very well aware of this, and I think
more recently, recognized such by indicating the possblity of
having to change theaintersection at I-465 from.-a .diamond
of now which it is, to a full cloverleaf configuration. My
federal work .included examining the area particularly along
and west of Spr.ingmill .and of course those residential properties
in that area. I compared the proposed conceptual' :mixed use
development .of this project :with other 'affluent areas of this
country of which I am .familiar. .including Atlant, GA, Phoenix,
AZ,. upstate New York, Naussa County in particular, Dallas, TX,
.Oakbrook, IL. 'My.review of those areas, conceptually was to
try to identify, the. coralary -types of developments that had
occured there and to .give some recognition as to what 'impact
those developments had on nearby residential,' particularly the
i uxurious'.and estate type developments in those areas; N(,
conclusions are :that. the potential and desirability, this is
feasibly the. highest and best use' for the. proposed site. For
a quality and mixed used development, is in fact the type of
developmetn .envisioned here which as I said earlier, really
was created when I-465 intersected with this major facility.
There are only three major arteries entering, the Carmel area.
This .isby far the most desirable due to location and identity,
affluence of the. area,-:the prestige and the need. The proposed
used, therefore, is .entirely reasonable and logical especially
given the unusual strict covenants and other restrictions to
which the. developer has already committed, as I understand the
process. Traffic is a concern. It.;will be a concern. It
is for all of our developing area. It is for every developing
area. There will need to be improved traffic facilities.
--43--
I can't imagine, with or without this development, that other
improvements won 't be necessary to intersecting highways.
Cross highways, 106th,. collector streets, etc. because of
developments that are already occuring in the residential
sector. The. developer, however, has sought. and has attempted
particularly, with the fine traffic analysis, to direct the
traffic .within and without the project to minimize.the: adverse
consequences .particularly as they relate to 'Springmill,- Road.
The Master Plan, the Comprehensive Plan and it was,TI'm sure '`
just that, and it .was a conceptual idea, calls for 103rd. Street
•
to extend west. The: right. of .way .is already dedicated some
• 600 feet west of the: existing U.S. 31 right. of way into the
property it adjoins, but` instead of it going due' west,' it
seemed most proficient .and least diffi.cult .on the Springmill Road
traffic for it to go southwest out of this project. Thebuffer
that is designed or at least identified 'by the. exhibits in the
material that I have seen, will certainly help preserve the
residential character. of-]this area .and to soften the location
. and the. development that will obviously occur some point in time
within •this corridor. .and within this quadrant. Quality housing
is desirable and is existed in the. area is not the. highest and
best use or reasonable.use of this real estate or this corridor.
Experience in the. other cities that I identified earlier.Atlanta,
.0akbrook, IL, Phoenix, AZ,. Nassau County, New York, Dallas, TX,
is an example. You have-'adjacent mixed use developments, luxury,
residential in the..range of $200,000, $1 ,000,000 to as high as
$3,000,000 that has not had any adverse impact in marketability.
I think that that is an important consideration. For that reason,
I am convinced .based on other projects that I have seen, that
in aesthetically acceptable and compatible development can occur
in .harmony with desirable, affluent residential properties
. nearby, such as those along Springmill Road, 103rd and in":the
entire area. Thank you.
Mayor Reiman: Please give the petitioner the same courtesy they gave you and I
think then we'll .have a terrific night. Thank you. •
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Richard Rembusch: Mr. Albright made much of the. projection the traffic .engineer for a
total of 23,000 trips per day .and I have to tell you all that
when I saw that number for the. first time, I thought, 'My God,
can that number be right. And as documented in the. report you
have before you,`.engineers count trips differently than lay
people do. For example, if you were to take your:children to
school and drop them off...and go back home you would=thinkyyoo'd
.made a trip, butyou didn't. You .made two trips. You .made one
trip to the school and one trip from the. school to home.: The.
other question that I asked, was the methodology used to
generate .that, number, and I said with the. various different uses.
considered an isolation. Yes`:it was. I said, so if there were
someone in office here and he would have lunch here and go back
to his office, he-:made two trips. That's right. And so the
principles of traffic projection require that if you are seeking
a traffic projection that relates to the impact on off-site
roads .only, that you must make an adjustment in a multi-
use project and the statistics that you .have before you show
that. The adjustment is 20% to account for .intra-site trips.
The Board which you tee .before you provides a graphic representation
of 'the. various streets in the..area with the width of the streets,
as :shown .on the. board here, .indicating the traffic volumes.
This provides a very graphic way of seeing what exists. and what
the 'impact of the..project as projected would be. And you
can see how wide Meridian Street is with the 30 some thousand
cars per .day. And you can see 4415 cars going out and 4415
cars coming in. .And some of those cars go north and some of
those .cars don't stop at Meridian and continue on straight and
some of those cars go south. Similar affect over hereon
Springmill Road and a similar affect up north here. I believe one
of the. administrators was uncertain as to whether a traffic
report .had been done, and just for the record, I believe the -
report is already .in the. record but if not we'd lik to submit
it at 'the close of tonights meeting. There .was .�.a_ivery thorough .
traffic study and this was a portion of the. information that
grew out of it. The. thought, a question that.was posed by
. -45-
Mr. Eiteljorg was particularly worthy of some attention and that
question was, "Why. does this 500 foot depth, as it reached this
point, began to come in, of course on this the-.additional natural
area hasn't been added, but in fact, that area would:come down •
something like that. Why .wasn't this line simply: brought. down?
Well the. answer to that is primarily the. impact around 465. It's
a visual impact. The impact of the. noise that iminates from it
The. impact of the. lights that are found at the interstate inter-
change. There are four lights that, surround the. interchange, two
of which are on this side of U.S. 31 . They are 120 feet tall
.and quite bright, and then a number of :.lights with lesser heights
that come along here. As you .know the interstate highway is
elevated here, 60,000 cars per .day. Most of the traffic,: 60MPH,
.55MPH, there are a number of trucks. Elevated at this point,
I think it would be very difficult to develop residentially
'this property. So the reason that we biught that in,. isF that
. as we got closer to I-465, it seemed to .us' that it would be more
difficult to develop .as .a quality residential projectand that
was the reason for that Another gentlemen-.said.:yyou see this
here, well there's going to be a whole bunch of other ones
on :up the street if we have this one here. This one is the only
.one I .know of thats on the. Comprehensive Plan from the. southern
boundary of Clay Township to the. northern boundary of Clay
Township that doesnpt already exist. It is unique in that
regard. We .had remonstrators protest what they called a
commercial entrance here and yet there's no commercial signage.
At the .same time we had .another remonstrator say there's too
much traff.ic .on Meridian Street. Let's not put more traffic
over there. Another remonstrator complained about' traffic
at 106th and 'Spr.ingmill at that intersection. I think what
it .will be, that some people will want to go south on Springmill
Road--..and I suspect, that some of the existing traffic on Springmill
Road comes about from the. early administrators who.spoke of it
tonight. What this does down here is to prevent people from
taking a path up here creating additional congestion up at
106th and Springmill . It's faithful , the. interior roadway plan
is faithful to sound long planning procedures. There was a
point made that acompany acquired the property sometime ago
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and that we had no mistake or hardship about the existing zoning
and I certainly agree with that. We had not acknowledged that
there was a mistake or hardship nor are we required to allege
a hardship or mistake in order for this body to approve our
petition. We do own it. It's not a matter of an option that
you often see. We are .in a minority tonight..in more ways than
one,-:in that, of all the. people who spoke on the. mtEting, in
fact, own_the_-property,that is the. subject of this petition.
Why did we do this? Why did we buy this property if we thought
that is .was miszoned. Well, the. principle reason, I suppose,
when you come right. down to it, is to protect our existing
investment on Meridian Street. This is an investment that
approaches $100 million dollars. This site,-:in fact, is the
gateway to the Meridian Corridor. What happens here, will establish
a .landmark at this almost unique' location that will set a point
of 'quality for Meridian Street to :the north.. Now the. numbers
that were present among the. remonstrator group' tonight were
impressive, and I believe , that the.. volume of opposition is .
.based .in part .on a very effe.ctive .campaign by the leaders of
the opposition, and that as it should be. The thing:: that must
be kept .in mind, is that the fact that there are a large number
of objectors, is itself, .not a sound or lawful basis for the
denial of asTetition for zoning relief,. no matter how strongly
those objections .may be. The judgement of this Board should not
be based .on a poll or plublicite of neighbors. There based on
appropriate zoning principles and merits of the.:application.
That concludes 'my presentation. If Mr. Nelson .has any thing
further; he. does not. Thank you Madam Mayor and members of the
Council .
Mayor Reiman:. Thank you Mr. Rembusch.. We are now closing the public hearing at
10:47 P.M. , I think, Dottie. And now Council . Please, Sue.
Councilor McMullen: First of all , I would like to take a''little bit of time; this is
strictly selfi.sh .on 'my part and its strictly 'my personnal .view
points .and I feel like,-;in a way, I'm defending some of the Plan
Commission members, and I wish to do so at this public meeting.
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First of all , its been said in the. past that these decisions, the
decision of the. Plan Commission was already decided before we
ever heard this, or read this in a newspaper, maybe that's an
inaccurate statement. I, for .one, would like to .make. this
statement, that I knew nothing about this petition befo.re` it came
into the: Plan Commission in November, That's the first time I
saw.anthing on it, at the. public hearing. I have since talked to
some of the. concerned citizens, not as .manyaas I wouldf:like to
•
have as 'my own time .is definitely limited. But I've read every
letter that I've received in the::mail, approximately 30 -to 35• •
and I've read them sometimes twice. Big deal, you say, well ,
that is,.7as far .as I'm concerned'. It took some time to do this.
I 've :listened toevery concern expressed at the. public hearing;
: .and at the.:Land Use Committee meeting. 'My decision! tvote for ,.
•
this rezoning of the: acreage was note°made :easily and it was
not :taken lightly. I did-listen to your concerns, and I did not
feel that ours was an adversarial position. I 'm sor_rythat any
of the. remonstrators :did get that impression as we :all spent many
hours trying to service community .and its :citizens. And I have
. always prided myself ..in .having an 'open~.:mind. In defense of the
Plan Commission of not allowing .maybe all of you to express your
concerns like wer done tonight, we did have several other :items,
at least twelve, I think, on the. agenda. As you can well` se it is
now ten minutes to eleven. This meeting started a half hour before
our Plan Commission meetings usually do and unfortunately,-we just
cannot spend almost four hours with people giving repetitious
statements sometimes. We did hear again at the Land Use Committee
some of the..same concerns, and again, I stress, I feel that most
• people .did have an open mind .on this project. One gentlemen said
that he. can 't comprehend our approving this or even considering it.
But .one thing that I find ,hard to comprehend, is that 'everyones
here this evening so concerned about this project as you rightly
should• be, but we pleaded when we were working the Comprehensive
Plan, repeatedly, for .input .on some sort of .planning .in this
community, some kind of .imput from people who. live on Springmill
in transitional areas. Now, I realize that for me to expect
people to have the. interest :that I do, is not realistic. I 've
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gone to public meetings, repeatedly, before I was ever elected
to this Board of this City Council . I attended the. Council meetings
for four years. It was very entertaining as you have found out.
And I just -wish that more of you would put some time .into this.
:Finding things out, in advance, whats going on. Giving us imput
before it gets so emotional . We drastically need this in this
community. Alot of people who:live in Indianapolis, they don't
really identify with Carmel . They should. Because this body, .
and Plan Commission affect all of your]1ives as your 'well finding
out. So lets put som extra time in and attend some of these
meetings and find out whats going on an give us your :imput before
we get to this state. We do need your help as elected officials
.and :as Plan Commission members for this type of .thing.' We do have
a tremendous job as Council members but we asked for it when we
ran for this job. And I 'm willing to take the heat on 'my vote
no matter how, no .matter what you say, no matter what you might
think, but please don't ever think that I 'm not concerned
about you and that I don't listen to,!you, because I do and I did.
Thank you.
Councilor Garretson: I 've got two request, two request Mayor .and that is, is Dick Albright
still here? I've got a question for Dick. My request are that the
City Attorney give "is a report at the, 27th on this contract
zoning dispute between Mr. Church and Mr. Nelson, .and. the other
within that two week time, whether Mr. Welch would have time
to review the. traffic situation?
Mayor Reiman: Mr. Welch. You mean?
Councilor Garretson: No, I mean our Mr. Welch, the. City Engineer.
Mayor Reiman: Tom Welch?
Councilor Garretson: Tom Welch. Review the traffic report and the traffic situation
and give us a report. .
Councilor Badger: His analysis of it, the. traffic report.
Councilor Garretson: His analysis of it. I know, but I 'd like hime to give us a full
report. It's obvious that the report was prepared and contracted
by the petitioner and therefore, the most senicle people would be
suspect of it. So I would like at least our person to give us a
-49-
report on it. Dick, I 've got a question for you. You're the.
president of th Plan Commission, are you not?
Richard Albright: No.
•
Councilor Garretson: You're still on the. Plan Commission?
Richard Albright: Yes.
Councilor Garretson: How long have you been on it?
Richard Albright: Five years.
Councilor Garretson: You brought. this up and that 's why. I ask you to respond to this,
it's something that plagues us every time we take up'a petition. Th: s
•
This phrase "the highest and best use of the land" Now what
are the. criteria for that? As you understand it?
Richard Albright: Jim, I think its really a subjective thing, and Irreally can't
answer that. We have had petitioners that-said the. highest and
best use is the. Way we can get the. most money out of it and
the. Plan Commission kind of .laughed them out of the meeting.
I'm not sure that I can :give you a hard .and fast answer. of the
highest and best use. I think its a subjective thing. There's
no criteria. Chuck Kiphart could probably give you the. professional
planners definition of that, but I don't know of what the criteria
is.
Councilor .Garretson: Is there a building assumption on your part or the part of the
majority of the. Plan Commissioners, that all land has to be
developed? In other words, using this as an example, there
could be another example. You've got .vacant..land now; you 've
got some residential propertyou also have .vacan land, and
there seems to be an assumption that for land to remain vacant
is .bad. That's not the. highest and best use fot it, for it to
remain vacant. Is there a built in assumption then that it has
to be developed?
Richard Albright: I can 't speak for the others. I can speak for myself and I don't
think that this is the. case. It :has. been pointed out to us,
repeatedly, that when the. zoning ordinancewas passed, that all
land in Clay Township, I guess with the. exception of the Bitter
Nut resort, was classified as some type of development land.
There is not agricultural zoning in Clay Township. The.
ordinance that has been adopted 'by this Council says that every
other square foot of land in Clay Township can be developed if
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•
the owner wishes to develop it within the. guidelines of the.
ordinance. And so I guess that's the. way I have to answer that.
I think that from my experience with the other people on the.
Council,.that most look at every individual case on an
individual basis.
Councilor Garretson: You don`t see that assumption?
Richard Albright: No. No, I really don't.
Councilor Garretson: Then let me ask you this final question. One of the arguments
petitioner .makes is that the reason that blue' area curves to
the west .is because the. uniqueness of 465 and that it would
not develop residentially because of the. traffic, the:noise,
the-lights, etc. and would ask us to rezone that based. on that.
Now, we've seen other petitions come in from time to time that
say, "based .on what's happened here this won't go residential
so will you let us' do that?" If that .happens, does that then
become .in a form,:a fate of compli (?), .and after a matter
of time the next person, I don't know if .I want to say a
domino affect, but someone will come .in sometime..later and say,
"Now I 'am bordering a commercial activity or an ;industrial
activity .and that 'is a unique situation and therefore, you
should' give me the.'opportunity to rezone?
Richard Albright: Absolutely. This does happen. You .want to :call it a. domino
affect or chain reaction or what you want to call it,: this
certainly does .have affect and it certainly something,that has
to be taken into account. We particularly noticed this along
96th Street where there is development over which we have no
control .in .Marion County. And it .has to have an affect on the
property owners on the. other side of the. street. It'just' has
to :have because it probably is going to affect its desirability
for .one .use or .another.
Councilor Garretson: Is the..situation exaspidated 'by a change in personnel on these
Boards, Councils and Commissions? That is for instance, this
body may .know why it .makes an action. Three years from now
there may be .anywhere from a 15 to 100 percent change over in
this body. So the next one that comes forward; you have a
continuity problem.
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•
Richard Albright: Well , I think that. if you did find a drastic change, drastic
turnover, then undoubtedly, would have some affect. In the
relatively short time that I 've been observing the scene in
Carmel , I think that we have very good stability .on the. various
boardsand_:commissions. It seems like the appointing authorities
are willing to reappoint people and people are willing to continue
to serve for more than one term, and therefore, the turnover
is rather gradual and the people who. come on have their own ideas.
Councilor Garretson: So you don't see that, as a problem?
Richard Albright: I don-`see that as a problem in Carmel , at this time. It has
. not been.
Councilor Garretson: DO you see .any potential of a .domino affect here, going north?
Richard Albright: Well , allI see that I can relate to is the. discussions that
were had in the. Comprehensive Plan committee when this particular
area .came .up... Our concern was not just the, souther end of
Springmill Road but .Springmill Road all the. way to the north end
of •the. Township, as a dividing :line. Like it or not, a dividing
line between •what appears to be commercial areas and very?large
estate type developments, 'open farms, .and the. thought was that'
we .wanted to .take 'special .care .and special precautions whenever
there .was development along there so that we were not forcing
something on the. other side of Spr.ingmill into another 'type of
use.
Councilor Garretson: I have on final question. Alot of focus tonight, I 'dssay maybe
the..biggest thrust tonight of the. opposition, deals with the
traffic. You,' your. initial comments were aimed at the traffic
and getting so much through the horn, I believe you said. Did
the. Plan Commission .take into consideration in its verbal
discussions not only the. affect of the 23,000 vehicles pressing
into this, butalso the fact that the potential development
that's coming on 31 , on the, on both sides of the road, and the
fact 'that after 116th Street is improved 'by the: City, that will
• probably have some affect in further putting traffic on. Or was
the 23,000 just looked at in isolation?
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Richard`Albr.ight: No, that figure was never looked at and to the best of 'my
knowledge, specific traffic counts on any thoroughfare
were never studied in the. Comprehensive Plan. In the. thorough-
fare plan, various categories were given that were based on the
consultants opinion and the committees opinion on where we
would' need arteries, thoroughfares, collectors,,,streets and what
have you, but there were not any 'specific traffic counts. The
consultants were advised of the various projects..in the. area,
particularly along Meridian for which detailed traffic studies
had been made. And I believe with the assistance and,.cooperation
of the developers. He was given those figures, and he used
those .in looking at College, Springmi11 ,106th,. 116th and all
those, but .in the. deliberations of the. committee itself, these
. numbers were not brought. up'. It, again that was part of the.
technical plan that we never had the opportunity to get into
that much detail . So in the. 23,000, that proposed rezone was
never, ever contemplated. There are certain areas that we
anticipate .large development in the. Township and we did the
best we could to accommodate those 'by showing higher type
streets .in the. thoroughfare plan but without specific:numbers.
There just .was not the time to get into that. However, if you
look at the, thoroughfare plan, I think you'll see that'-there
are .many streets that are designated as collectors and arteries
and they are designated that way because of existing development
and because of the. types of development contemplated .in the
concept plan. But we didn't have specific numbers.
Councilor .Garretson: Thank you Dick. Thank you Mayor.
Mayor Reiman: Thank you Councilor Garretson, thank you Dick. Councilor Doane?
Councilor Doane: I guess 'my question is directed to' Mr. Nelson. During themmany
meetings that we've had regarding this project, I 've heard it
asked several times, many times, if the. project could 6unction
with just one entrance from Meridian Street and I don't believe
we've had an absolute yes or no answer to that question and
may we have that definitely settled at this time?
Jim Nelson: Certainly. A traffic .analysis report was filed with a certifi-
cation from the secretary, and I believe a copy was available to
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•
•
each of you. In that traffic analysis, on pages 16, 17, 18.
• and 19, the discussion of 1 ,2 or 3 acess points, I'm sorry,
thank you. The discussion took place in the traffic analysis
as 'to whether 1 ,2, or 3 access points and which was most
desirable. On page 19, the..last paragraph,. is the conclusion
of Mr. Klausmier .and his study. "The applicants property cannot
be adequately serviced 'by fewer than three access points and
an .interconnected internal collector roadway network. If .
fewer than three access points are provided then cul-de-sac
links become accessive. ° And anyone on the. Plan Commission
knows the concern about the links of cul-de-sacs. The
property becomes difficult to provide with public and
emergency services. Travel becomes securitis and congestion
is worsened. The proposed development concept with three
points of access provides multi-directional access which
minimizes travel and congestion. The, access points have
been .carefully chosen .in consideration of traffic operations
and safety." Now that is the. conclusion of Mr. Klausmier'with
respect to three access points.7 I might :take a brief .(the
tape ran out at this point and some words werelost when .
changing tapes).. . . . . . . . .
Councilor Doane: (see page 55)
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Minnie Doane: It doesn ' t say in here where the three points
of access have to be. You're telling me the develop-
ment could not function withou the access on
on Springmill. Is that what you're telling me?
I think I would prefer to say it in this way, we
feel that the extension of 103rd Street is a
sensible and responsible thing to do with respect
to the development. Let ' s assume one thing. Let's
assume the Springmill exit or access point was not
there. If it were not there, cars would travel up
Springmill, down 106th and down into the project.
By having 103rd Street extended to Springmill and
intersect with Springmill at the southwest corner
of the property, it provides the opportunity for
people coming from the south to enter into the
project, to exit at this point, and not travel up .
and down Springmill Road in front of the homes
that the remonstrators live in or down 106th
Street. So having the access point for Springmill
at this point, keeps traffic off of Springmill
Road.
Minnie Doane: Thank you.
Mayor Reiman: Council Doane?
Minnie Doane: I have a question for our attorney. We 've had a
lot of comment about the contract zoning and could
you, by our meeting next time, tell how you interpret
the contract zoning and how it applies to this
particular project? Thank you.
Mayor Reiman: It has been requested for a five minute break. How
about three? We 've got other things on the agenda.
Fine.
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Ted Johnson: I 'm prepared to stay here all night. I 've no place
to go.
Mayor Reiman: Yes, Councilor Johnson. I have to drive you home,
right? Ok. Five minutes.
Break.
Mayor Reiman: Meeting to order please. Be quiet. I feel like Tip
O'Neal up here, you know. He gets up here, you
know. . .
Frank Fleming: Yes. But you don 't look like him.
Mayor Reiman: Frank says I don 't look like Tip. Thank you,
Frank. All right now, I think it would be fair to
be quiet. Would you mind closing the door? We're
getting a bit chilly up here. Councilor Johnson
now has the floor.
Ted Johnson: I have a series of questions. I would address
first to either Mr. Nelson or Mr. Rembusch, which
ever wants to respond to it. The first question I
have is, why did you in your presentation I really
didn't get the idea, why you chose B-1 for the B-1
area of this. . .
Jim Nelson: The B-1, it is stated, was the most intense commercial
zoning classification, that is not true. I think
if you review a comparison of the B-1 and the B-2 ,
the B-2 you' ll find, irrespective of it being B-2 ,
instead of B-1, is the most intense zoning
classification. The B-1 was selected, because that
will provide the opportunity for retail in that
area. That was the primary reason.
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Ted Johnson: Ok. Then why, why did you go from B-5 to B-6 on
the other area?
Jim Nelson: B-6 provides for a hotel. B-5 does not. And it is,
at least invisioned, as a part of this development
plan, that a hotel will occupy part of the B-6.
Ted Johnson: Ok. Now, the other thing is, is it my understanding,
if I 'm reading our zoning ordinance properly,
weighing against the overlay to the B-6 , that we 're
talking 100 ft. to 120 ft. difference?
Jim Nelson: Yes . I believe the. . .
Ted Johnson: Someone had said earlier that it was 60 ft. to 120
ft. . Is it 100 feet or. . .
Jim Nelson: I believe the building height in the B-5 , is 45 feet?
And in the B-6 it is 120?
Mayor Reiman: Why don't we wait and get that. We have two
people looking it up here. What ' s the question
again Ted?
Ted Johnson: How high isthe B-6? Realizing that the B-5, what
is the B-5 heighth?
Jim Nelson: The B-6 heighth is 100 feet. But, because it is a
B-6 in the overlay zone, it goes to 120 .
Ted Johnson: Right, and the B-5 is 120 , which it is zoned right
now, the B-5 on the overlay is 120 right now.
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Ted Johnson: No. B-5 , as it is zoned right now, is in the
overlay zone.
Jim Nelson: Yes, it is.
Ted Johnson: So it has to be 120 ft. right now. Is that not
right?
Jim Nelson: It says under the overlay zone, it says B-5
district, all uses 60 ft. except that the maximum
heighth may not exceed 50% of the depth of the
front yard.
Ted Johnson: Ok. And the B-6 is 120 ft. So, we really have a
difference in the overlay going from B-5 to B-6 of
60 Ft. in heighth?
Jim Nelson: That is correct.
Ted Johnson: Now, is the heighth, as I remember when we wrote
this, the heighth was determined by the distance
from the road on an angle (tape blank) . Do we got
anybody from the Plan Commission that can address
this?
Jim Nelson: The normal set back in the overlay zone is 90 ft.
I believe in the B-6 zone, that there is one addition-
al foot of building heighth above 90 . So that, to
have a building at the maximum heighth of 120 ft. ,
the set back of 120 ft. would be correspondingly
required.
Ted Johnson: Ok. In other words, that was what I was pressing
there. If there is an overlay there, you just
don 't, 120 ft. , you can 't put right on the highway.
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Mayor Reiman: There ' s a 90 ft. required set back.
Yes . There is a 90 ft. required set back.
Ted Johnson: Now, the third question is probably between you and
Mr. Rembusch. My question is, why do we not apply
the total overlay ordinance to this acreage?
Jim Nelson: Well, one of the first things we looked at on an
earlier project the idea of simply extending the
overlay zone, it seemed so neat and clean, why not
do that. And I suppose the principle thing we got
into was a technical difficulty with certain
difinitions first of all. There was one that defines
the front yard as the side facing Meridian Street,
regadless of where you are. That would mean, for
example, can we please have a map? That would mean
for example. Of course, the front yard set back is
the largest set back. That would mean for example,
if there was something put in here, the front yard
would be here (on map) , and according to your
greatest set back, would be in this direction,
rather that where the nearest street is, which is
presumingly where most people would want it. So
there were technical aspects of it, such as that,
that lead us to rule it out. Then we looked at the
question of, what were the most important elements
of that as it would relate to this project. And it
seemed to us that those were the architectural
design, lighting, landscaping, and signage review.
Co:mb_ined with the prohibition on the excluded uses
and then we ' ll have a development plan for the
areas inside the corridor as well. That is going
to have to include the traffic and drainage as it
develops as well. And we are on record with the
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development of offices saying we will come back
with the traffic and drainage as that situation
evolves.
Ted Johnson: When we worked on the Meridian Corridor overlay,
in 1979 and finished it in 1980 , the intent was to
protect the corridor from, number one, small
projects. These are, I hate to say it, McDonald' s,
and rows of continuing small businesses on the
corridor. And if I'm recalling correctly, what we
discussed at that time, and I know both of you, at
least one of you was present during the course of
this thing and the Plan Commission members who are
here tonight were there during the course of that.
But, one of the things that concerned us, that we
did not get a influx of small shops , strip
centers, within the corridor. You know, under any
condition. I do remember that the logic that we
used for addressing 600 ft. , and I say this for
the public' s position, and it' s that it was pure
scientific. We measured the distance from Meridian
Street to Penn Road and said that' s 600 ft. , flop
it over on the other side, and that' s the Meridian
Corridor and nothing else. So the thought was, not
necessarily to limit the corridor, because shortly
after that, and you can correct me if I 'm wrong,
we had a development created outside of the
corridor, which is the Welch Development.
Jim Nelson: Yes, and that was on the east side of Meridian and
there is a spot up north of 116th where commerical
zoning already pertrudes already more than 600 ft.
on the west side, that is towards Springmill.
Ted Johnson: But, what I 'm concerned about here, then is that,
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is the type of development that we have within the
"pocket" of B-1, B-3, and B-6 that we might be
developing outside of that corridor area;:- And I'
guess that, and I 'm not certain in my own```Jmind, ',.:'
that we as a community are able to control what,,
type of development goes in there and I- g uess I
would ask you to address Mr. Albright's.question
saying that we allowed this very same thing. This
is. not' the first one at 116th to College from Penn
Road to College and north, ..we have allowed to go`
that way and he 's telling, he 's saying tonight, ;'
that we do not have the control with the architectural
lighting and the other things that we thought we
had. Can you address that? lr
Jim Nelson: I think the statement that Mr. Albright made was:
that, under the overlay zone, there are :two
y 4
reviews possible. One is, site review. Another is,
architecture, lighting, landscaping, and signage:.
With the Technology Center, the overlay-zone was
extended with the respect to the architecture,
lighting, landscaping, and signage. Therefore,
every building that goes in the Technology;'Center _
must come to the Plan Commission for architecture,
lighting, landscaping, and signage. I think what
Mr. Albright meant was, that we didn't extend the
site review portion of the overlay zone. Well, if
you go through an architecture, lighting, landscaping,
and signage review by the Plan Commission,. let me
tell you something, they look at the site; too.
Because you hve to give them a site development
plan, a landscape plan, a perimeter lighting plan,
and everything else. So they look at the site plan
when they look at the other things they look at.
So I don't know what the big deal is about ,that.
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•
`9
The buildings that are now being constructed in
the Technology Center received architectural,
lighting, landscaping, and signage approval from
the Planning Commission.
Ted Johnson: The other thing, to answer a specific question
that was asked, and you answered a question that
ther was traffic studies made. Was ther a traffic
study made on Springmill itself? Do you know?
Jim Nelson: Do you mean, was a traffic count taken?
Ted Johnson: Yes.
Jim Nelson: Yes . Springmill Road has 3200 cars per day.
Ted Johnson: Where?
Jim Nelson: At this, along this side ( looking at map).
Ted Johnson: Is that 1600 going both ways or is that. . .'
Jim Nelson: 1600 north and 1600 south. 106th Street has 3800
per day. 19 one way and 19 the other.
Ted Johnson: Ok. 1600 each way.
Jim Nelson: On Springmill, and 1900 each way on 106th Street.
Ted Johnson: On the S-2 area, do you intend to develop that
yourself or is that a. . .
Jim Nelson: We 've invisioned having, or hiring, another
company involved that is a specialist in
residential development.
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Ted Johnson: Now, there was a statement made tonight by Mr.
Albright and I 'm not certain that we clarified,
that I understand in my own mind, because the
traffic study does not reflect the same thing, at
least I didn 't read, the 23 trips, 23 , 000 trips,
there was a statement made that there ' s 34 ,000
trips on Meridian today without this development.
Now can you explain to me what that 34 ,000 is?
Again, is that a two way trip, or is that. . .
Jim Nelson: Yes. That, there is 34 , 000 trips. That 's 17,000
north and that ' s 17 , 000 south.
Ted Johnson: Ok.
Jim Nelson: That represents 17 , 000 .
Ted Johnson: Ok.
Jim Nelson: I tell ya. This brings up an interesting point,
Mr. Johnson. On page 8 of this Traffic Analysis. I
think we need to clarify this once and for all.
They keep talking about 23 , 000 . As Mr. Rembusch
indicated to you, and it is shown in that exibit
there, 4 ,612 of the 23,000 are intrasite. So from
the 23 ,000 you have to subtract 4 ,612 . Then to
find the number of cars, you have to divide that
by two. Because when I cam here tonight, you know,
I thought I made a trip to the City Meeting Hall.
Not so. I made two trips, I came here and I went
home. And then, if I went to the Country Kitchen
afterwards, I made two more trips. Because I went
from here to there and there to home. Now, this
gets confusing. But if we look at the number of
cars per day, it' s 9, 223 per day. Now lets look
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gets confusing. But if we look at the number of
cars per day, it ' s 9 ,223 per day. Now lets look
how that traffic is divided up. Ok. Of those 9, 323
cars, 15% are going to use Springmill, 30% are
going to use 106th Street, and 55% will use 103rd
and Meridian. So, you know, when you talk about
23, 000 , that sounds like a humongous number. Well,
that' s 9 ,323 cars disbursed thoughout thesite as
I indicated to you
Ted Johnson: Is this the ultimate traffic flow? In other words,
with this area fully developed, I assume that this
is. . .
Jim Nelson: I think, to put it bluntly, this is absolutely the
worst case sinerio. And we felt responsible and
obligated to provide that to you. These numbers
and percentages have been locally tested and found
to be accurate.
Ted Johnson: What is the time for development?
Jim Nelson: We would anticipate not less than a five year. .
Mayor Reiman: I think that you were going to hear these answers.
And I think it would be very nice if you were
quiet, the Counselor did not interrupt you.
Jim Nelson: Not less that a four . . .
Mayor Reiman: Now, Mr. Johnson, would you please read to me that
question?
Ted Johnson: What is the time of development for this project?
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Jim Nelson: Four to five years at a minimum.
Ted Johnson: Thank you.
Jim Nelson: Thank you.
Mayor Reiman: Now. . .
Ted Johnson: I still got. . .
Mayor Reiman: Oh, I 'm sorry, I thought you were finished. Excuse
me.
Ted Johnson: I 've still got another person. A Mr. Church. I
need to ask you some questions, regarding, I don't
think I understood what you' re saying yet about
this convenant that we use. First, let me ask you
a question. Have you, in proposing anything to the
City of Carmel, have you ever used a covenant?
Mr. Church: No Sir.
Ted Johnson: In a rezone, or that type?
Mr. Church: No.
Ted Johnson: Are you aware that we do have and have had
covenants, at least that I know of, in the last
five or six years used covenant to protect. . .
Could you, in layman ' s language, explain to me why
you think that this is not a legal document?
Mr. Church: I am aware that you have used covenants and that
they are frequently in use as a tool of
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development to insure certain things happening
that go beyond the limitations or restrictions of
the ordinance. That ' s the purpose. There is
nothing, per say, wrong with voluntary covenants
being attached to a development such as this one
In my mind, and in the studying and reading that I
have done, it is whether or not there is an
inducement offered to the legislative bodywhich
they rely on in order to inact the zoning'2,;
ordinance. And so the question I propose to the
Planning Commission, and appropriately should
propose to you really, that is if you threw the
covenants out the window, would you be willing to
consider acting on the petition to rezone that has
been presented to you? And I think that that's the
first and most appropriate way to address the
question. More specifically, what I was refering
to this evening about the covenants . ::: themselves,
the document that has been drafted by Mr. Nelson
presumingly, and has been presented as part of the
package, is that this document has on its face in
black and white a statement that emplies an
aforwarditive action has been taken by the Plan
Commission accepting a responsibility created by
private contract. In other words, if you rezone it
to B-1, which does not call for architectural
design, sign, lighting approval, the only way the
Plan Commission can acquire that jurisdiction,
theoridically, is because somebody said "well, we
want you to do it" and then said, "Ok, then we 'll
accept the responsibility" . They've never accepted
the responsibility. The statement that ' s contained
in these convenants has not been an action inter-
taken affirmatively by the Plan Commission. And
•
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the second point I made was, even assuming that
they had taken such action, the question I raised
was whether or not they had the authority -to do
that. Can the Plan Commission as a statuatorally
created body, act independant of that statuatorally
authority, or ordinance authority, that has been
given by this Council and say "yes, we' ll agree to
undertake certain jurisdictural responsibilities
to review this. " Well, why not other things? And I
think the point that I 've tried to fairly :raise,
is number one, there has been a clarinducement in
my mind, offered. And there has been a reaction by
the developers on at least two separate occasions
responding to requests to the Plan Commission to
change those covenants and that inducement., I
think is compelling to the extent that there have
been votes that have been rendered in favor of the
project because of and in reliance upon those
covenants, then I think that ' s when you cross the
boarder into contract zoning. The case that I
attached to written materials, that I circulated,
or attempted to circulate to the Plan Commission
was not, and I think I said that I wasn't offering
it as a in Indiana, it was an Illinois
case. It simply offered some similar aspects,
which I thought might at least try to acquaint you
with what the issue is . Mr. Nelson, Mr. Merrill at
the Plan Commission said that they reviewed this
and they concluded that this procedure was not
contract zoning. And I respect their opinion as
fellow attorneys, I just chose to disagree with
them and I hope that there isn't the necessity of
finding some form to resolve that question. I
think it is an important issue for you to be alert
to. I gave you more answer than you wanted.
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Ted Johnson: No. You're fine. Thank you. The only other
question that I might ask is, I read the newspaper
like everybody else, apparently I read more
newspapers than everybody else, because. . .
Mayor Reiman: Do you need Mr. Church anymore?
Ted Johnson: No. Thank you, Mr. Church. I 'm sorry, I didn't
meant to. . . but, I would like to, is there a Mr.
Eldon Alig here?
Mayor Reiman: Yes.
Ted Johnson: Yes. Mr. Alig?
Mayor Reiman: Give him a chance to come to the potium, please.
Ted Johnson: Yes . I 'm sorry.
Mayor Reiman: Elden. I know you sir, but name and address please
sir.
Mr. Alig: Elden Alig, 9399 Springmill Road.
Ted Johnson: I guess, folks that live on Springmill and folks
that live in that area are emotional about this
issue and I appreciate that. And what I want to
find out is, there ' s two statements that were
quoted by the Indianapolis Star by you and I
certainly hope that you don't have any proof that
this is true. One of them is the "the Plan
Commission has no intention of listening to the
public, the public be damned. " That ' s one. The
other was a statement made in the, that' s
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terrible, I didn 't even get the name of the paper,
Kelly Edwards , that' s the Ledger. There' s a state-
ment made in the Ledger "about a year, year and a
half ago, Mr. Welch made his plans quietly with
the Plan Commission and the City Council in Carmel.
Last August they changed their covenant. " Number
one is, I deny the one for your information. The
first time that I ever heard of this was when it
appeared in these newspapers.
Mr. Alig: Could we go, sir, with one at a time?
Ted Johnson: Ok.
Mr. Alig: The first one.
Ted Johnson: Ok. The first one.
Mr. Alig: We, I have never in my life, seen such an
arbitrary running of a public body as done by
Bill Merrill. And I won't go through it all,
you were there. He did, in my opinion, not the
Board, I did not say the Board, I looked Bill
Merrill right in the face and said "you sir,
have a public be damned attitude. " The may have
picked it up a little different. I dont ' know.
I think he did have public be damned attitude.
I ' ll stand by my statement. He didn't even let
you gentlemen vote, and ladies, on whether we
could have a continuance, we got 10 days
It will take us some time to get an attorney.
If not a public be damned attitude, it won't
get you a chance to get your expert witnesses.
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He didn't give you people a chance, not you,
but the Board a chance to vote. He just spoke
for them. Maybe that ' s the way it goes. Now,
the other question sir, now that ' s another. . .
could you state it again?
Ted Johnson: Well, it' s quoting you in here "about a year,
year and half ago, Mr. Welch made his plans
quietly with the Plan Commission and the City
Council in Carmel. Last August they changed
their covenant. "
Mr. Alig: All right, let me explain that. We and
neighbors for many years, put fortune, time and
development of this area. This is a beautiful
area. I myself built homes there in the face of
I465. I lost money in a couple of them, but we
held it to residential. We set back 90 feet, we
took an area that had three lots per acre and
changed it to 3/4 and so forth and so on. Mr.
Eiteljorg was here, we 're to buy ground
and set back the 90 feet, maintain integrity of
this gorgeous corridor. Many others have done
it. Now when 465 was coming, the county had no
zoning. The people of Clay Township got
together and I was instrumental in praising and
helping up the original Meridian corridor with
Art Baynum, book, Walter ' s, Frenzel ' s,
Swetzel ' s, you name it, and all the people who
lived there. We got about 4 , 000 signatures in
Clay Township all over, because they trusted
Carmel, and we felt, we felt, now I could be a
little bit wrong, but I felt it was a covenant
that suggests we'll take your zoning, we gave you our rights,
well I didn 't, I 'm in Marion County,
-70-
but the people that I worked with at Hamilton County, cause
we worked together as neighbors, we were brought up on both
sides of the. street; you .know. You got business on 96th Street
what are those homeowners going to do on 96th;. you know, so
we established, B-1 , low"ri'se:offfces older apartments, causes-
the buses are run just during normal hours;and=:the weekends and
nights, go on home ; you know. Well anyway, we 1thought. we had
something we could count on and we (muffled) Mr. Welch into this
and he..knew about zoning, and I 've developed ground. .'And you
don 't usually buy ground, just, if he. bought. the. ground he bought
as is .and it .can be developed residentially. It's proven it can.
It's going all' around the interstate they've got a residential
(muffled), .especially .in Springmill , there were people that were
ready to buy it. (muffled) • but he goes .in and works for
a year, someone mentioned' 44 meetings .on this property,. I don't
know :where they were .
Councilor McMullen: No, that was the Comprehensive Plan.
Eldon Alig: The Comprehensive Plan. There wasn't 44 on this corner. Now
we never heard, no .one advertized .in the. Noblesvile Ledger.
I'm sure the. people herein this area had known you were con-
templating, someone .was contemplating. They said lets put
business .on 'Springmill , we'd of been here, .and we'd of saved
alot of grief perhaps. But I think it took alot of audacity
for Mr. Welch and his associates, they really have a public be
damned- attitude,' to .walk in here, they're tearing down churches.
They're trying to buy the church.. (muffled) they'll sell when the
price is :right. . (muffled) they're going to tear down homes
'(muffled) . . . . :since '; that's fine. You have homes there. They're
desecrating the neighborhood. Not only God, but the people
who live there. And so I think there is a covenant in the Town'
of Carmel , when they agreed to take this responsibilities on
and work something out with the neighbors, that they should have
had a definite public meeting,(muffled). . . and notified them.
But we .didn't get notified. I mean the people .in Hamilton County,
I certainly .didn't,-:but the People in Hamilton County, they'd of
been there if they had been notified.
Councilor Johnson: Would you make a statement 'n::.here, now you're getting emotional ,
- 71- .
you're emotional about your issue but you make a statement
Eldon Alig: I 'm emotional about by wife .and kids, too.
Ted Johnson: I 'm just saying, I'm emotional about mine. You make a statement
in here that Mr. Welch made his plans, quietly with the Plan
•
Commission, .and the. City Council and the Carmel .
Eldon Alig: Yes, he..did.
Ted Johnson: Well , I serve on the. City Council . And Mr. Welch made no plans
with me. And I don't know of .another single member on this
Council , that Mr. Welch made any plans with. .And that's why.
to .make a statement like that, and I 'm sure that 90% of the
people• believe you when you :say it, because you're a fair,
honest business .man .in this community, .in the..Indianapolis
community. And you made a statement that damaged; you say that
we could .damage your property; you .Made a statement that could
.damage 'my reputation, and I get emotional about that, :.as well .
DO you see what I''m saying? You're .saying that I colluded with
Mr. Welch to do this.
Eldon Alig: . Did Mr. Welch appear at these meetings to .make the Comprehensive
Plan, or -his representatives?
Ted Johnson: All the. developers were at these plans.
Eldon Alig: That was my point, and I don't know how. Did Mr. Welch come
to .any of :us neighbors, we didn't know about it. We would have
been there if we'd .known about it. It's sort of suspicion, sir,
and where's there's smoke there's fire..
Ted Johnson: But I 'm telling you, that those meetings, that if you're referring
to the Comprehensive Plan meetings were held over a period of
three years .and they were all in every public newspaper. And they
were all 'opened' to the public. And that is not a quiet. What
you're indicating here, sir, that I, and other members,cfel.low
members of this Council , .and the. members of the .Carmel-Clay Plan
Commission; met quietly with Mr. Welch..
Eldon Alig: Does it .say City Council on that Statement?
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Ted Johnson Sure does. It says Plan Commission and the City Council in
Carmel . I just have to point that out to you,' I just'don't
Eldon Alig: I don't know how they reported it, but I do:believe that Welch
& Associates worked with certain people .in Carmel very diligently
and quietly, for this to come back, cause if it had't been done
quietly, I 'd of heard about it.and we'd of been .in here before
this
Ted Johnson: I don't have .anymore questions, I Just want you to know that
I don't .know a member of this Council or a member of the Plan
Commission that doesn't .take their job very seriously, and they
serve, Plan Commission,sespecially, spends many many hours
protecting the interest of all the. citizens of .Carmel . To
the. best of their ability.
Eldon Alig: Well , I apologize for attacking .any of your .integrity„but I
still .wonder Why. it .was still so quiet, why. they didn't grant
a continuance I 'll have to sit down a minute. Thank you.
Ted Johnson: I .can't tell you that. Thank you.
Mayor Reiman: Thank you Alden. Ted, anymore?
Ted Johnson: No, I 'm sorry. Thank you..
Mayor Reiman: Councilor Miller.
Councilor Miller: I just have one quick question for Mr. Gagnon I believe it'd be
who I like."to refer this to. All evening, one of the biggest
things we 've discussed is quality of lifealue of the. land and
caring about people and I just want you to know that personally,
that's extremely important to me and I think everybody in the room.
We`.re..all probably in the. Carmel area because we're very, very
concerned about quality of life., our' family, .and where we live
we have a great deal of .empathy. for .you .and where you live and
we .want to make sure that's taken .care of like it was 'my own
neighborhood. So please feel we really do care about that. As
you drive around Indianapolis and exit off. many of these exit
ramps, we notice a great deal of commercial .development going .on
of course. .and along Meridian right. now, the petitioner has built
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many, of what I think I could call extremely good quality
developments. 'My question for you being, if we would turn
this down and the zoning would remain B-5 for a good section
of that and these gentTemen would maybe sell the land to
somebody :else, would you feel more-comfo.rtab.l a wjthhus doing
that and then depending .on someone else coming in and maybe
not do;:as :quality a job, or would you feel strongly about
.maybe allowing this proven (?) entity to continue the quality
work they're doing?
Ed Gagnon: Would you let somebody else do less of a quality job? . Well ,
would you apply .any less (muffled, not sure of word) standards
to .anyone else .at you would these gentTemen, unless they had
a proven track record. I don't think you would, I don't think
you would, so we 're not worried about that. I think those
kind of things have a way of taking care of themselves. I think
all we're saying here, we're making a-phiTosophical statement
that we don't .want a retail , commercial development across the
street from us. Now you can take this Wherever you want to
.take it. These' people did this in good fa.ith .and we're making
our objections .in good .fa.ith. If the plan is defeated, then
I think other things can take place that might cause everyone
to live happily ever after, together. I think they'thlose sight
of .that.
Mayor Reiman: (Someone from the. audience asked if they could have further input)
(the..Mayor. answered) No, I 'm sorry. The hour is getting late.
President Fleming.
Councilor Fleming: I would like to ask-':the petitioner a question, in regard, "You're
going to be .on the. Clay Township sewer, right, and that's not going
to be until ;:probably; 9 988?
Rick Rembusch:. I think they're going to have it complete and ready to accept in the
summer or fall of .'87.
Councilor Fleming: I read 1988.
Rick Rembusch: It's 1987, I believe. We'll check on that, if I could have the
opportunity to check and report to you, subsequently, in case
of a mistake.
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Councilor Fleming: On the. cut .on Springmill Road; you could have that •approved
in case this would be •approved?
Rick Rembusch:. This is .an existing, it's at the. location of .an existing driveway
that comes around here. It's already cut. It's a matter of the
geometry .and its a .matter of the. overall transportation.
Councilor Fleming: Ok. Thank you.
Mayor Reiman: Council , we've heard from everybody .and Mr. .Badger does not have
a question. Any other questions on the. second round? As you can
see Mr. Andrews ;and 'myself and Mrs. Hancock we don't get to •talk.
This is a' Council .meeting.. With that we will close off the first
item of our agenda. We do meet at 7:00 .on January 27th, that's the
next .time the City Count-it will•• meet;;-probably to vote. . Thank you
very much for the._Way you 've conducted yourselves.
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