Minutes SpecStdy 11-28-06 Legacy Eastof CA
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CARMEL PLAN COMMISSION
Special Studies Committee
Special Meeting
The Legacy East Carmel
NOVEMBER 28, 2006
Members in attendance: Jay Dorman, Mark Rattermann, Steve Stromquist, and Susan Westermeier,
thereby establishing a quorum.
DOCS Staffin attendance: Matt Griffin and Christine Barton Holmes.
John Tintera, resident of Chicago, Illinois area and Carmel property owner was also in attendance.
The Special Studies Committee discussed the following single item:
1. Docket No. 06050001 Z: Legacy /East Carmel PUD Rezone
The applicant seeks to rezone 509.234 acres from S -1 to Planned Unit Development
for the purpose of creating a primarily residential, mixed -use development.
The site is located north of 126 Street, south of 146 Street, and on either side of
River Road.
Filed by Steve Pittman and Paul Rioux of Pittman Properties.
Charlie Frankenberger, attorney with Nelson Frankenberger appeared before the committee
representing the applicant. Also in attendance: Steve Pittman and Nick Churchill.
The petitioner has met with the Department no less than eight times in order to come up with a
superior product. Most of the work has been done, the Use Table has been up- dated, the exhibits
are all complete and suggestions have been incorporated.
The revisions have been outlined in the summary letter and distributed to the Committee and the
Department. There was previous discussion regarding the density: the density cap; what is
excluded from density calculation; beds and breakfasts; accessory dwellings; lofts; the CCRC
multi -unit building, etc. There was also a question about the formula used for calculation of
number of units. The density has been changed to 1344 —the computation is the total amount of
the real estate (509 acres) deducting the 11 -acre parcel east of River Road, and multiplying by 2.7
(units per acre) equals the density, 1344 units.
The petitioner put a limit on accessory dwellings, beds and breakfasts, the number of CCRC units
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in the multi -unit building, and the number of lofts. Accessory dwellings will be anywhere between
zero and 30. The number of beds and breakfasts will be between zero and 5. The number of bed
and breakfasts are up to five beds and breakfasts with no more than 30 rooms. The number of
units in the CCRC multi -unit building will be between zero and 2.5, and lofts between zero and
100.
The 1344 density per the PUD Ordinance is the detached dwellings, the larger detached and
smaller detached dwellings, and the attached dwellings.
Jay Dorman suggested that the nomenclature be made a little more user friendly, especially for the
Plan Commission and the Council members.
Steve Pittman noted that the maximum number of units between single family detached,
apartments, townhomes, all the normal products, would not exceed 2.7 units to the acre.
However, in working with the Staff, there was a desire to put lofts above retail. It is not known
whether that is viable at all, so the numbers are from 0 lofts to 100 lofts and that is not included in
the density of 2.7. Another desire from the Department is "granny flats," anywhere between zero
and 30. We do not know if we will definitely have a CCRC (Continuing Care Retirement Center.)
However, any independent cottages around the main building should be included in the density
and it is. Three things not included in the density are granny flats, lofts, and CCRC units from
the main building.
The suggestion was made by the Department to allow for 1344 permitted dwellings, including the
maximums number. The total should spell out the number of apartments and attached dwellings.
The sections not within the total should be differentiated. The PUD will specify that there cannot
be more than 1344 detached dwellings, unattached dwellings, apartments, and CCRC cottages.
Mark Rattermann commented that with all the different types of housing available, it gets
complicated defining a dwelling unit —even defining a family is a struggle. Mark was not as
concerned with the density as he was with the quality. The easiest thing might be to spell out the
maximum number of units, segregated as follows and list number 1, number 2, etc.
Steve Pittman wanted to clarify that The Legacy may not have a CCRC or Bed Breakfast, or
accessory dwellings, (granny flats,) because if anyone is concerned about the density, we are not
trying to sneak the density upwe would take these things out and not have them, but that un-
does what we have been asked to do by the Staff, by the Mayor, and by creating this multi-
use /multi generational community. Steve Pittman said he did not want to be penalized by
allowing things that may not be in the development.
Mark Rattermann commented that this project is not the same as Gramercy for the reasons that
there will be a definitive number of units and the neighbors are not showing up to remonstrate
against the Legacy project. The big issue is rush hour traffic; the school system has answered the
question about adding another elementary school.
Matt Griffin noted that the Commission would be looking at each section of The Legacy as it
came through the process, either as a primary plat or development plan. There is no staff
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approval for any section; as each phase would return, the Plan Commission would see it and the
Committee would check it for conformity.
Jay Dorman asked about the 10% alteration clause on page 26, item D of the PUD. How do you
subjectively say that something is a 10% change —who is that fair to?
Charlie Frankenberger responded that those concepts have been in PUD's in Carmel for a long
time. What happens is that the developer brings something in, the Department looks at it, and
they are comfortable that it is not a major change or substantial alteration and it is approved. If
the Department is not comfortable with it and feels it exceeds their authority, the Department errs
on the side of caution and looks at it again.
Matt Griffin said he was comfortable with the way the 10% alteration was stated. If the director
of the Department did not feel agree with the change proposed, he would pass it on to the
Commission for consideration.
Regarding open space, it must be open to the public and not exclude the Dad's Club. The Legacy
will issue a Declaration of Covenants just like the covenants in a neighborhood subdivision. The
Declaration will provide for an architectural review board that must approve all improvements
after initial construction; it does not include initial construction.
It was noted that the petitioner's name does not appear consistently on the documents presented.
Charlie Frankenberger responded that East Carmel LLC was the original applicant. The primary
principals in the East Carmel LLC are the same as Platinum Properties—it is not unusual to form
a separate LLC. The consensus of the Committee was that East Carmel LLC should be reflected
on all of the materials; the petitioner will comply.
Commercial buildings are now defined, landscape provisions have been modified pursuant to
suggestions received from the Department and the Urban Forester; the understanding is that they
are acceptable. Section 12 of the PUD Ordinance contains a number of changes as a result of
discussions with City Engineering— revisions to the landscape plans will be made to address a
requested change for the 146 Street treatment.
In response to Committee comments, the Matrix has been made more readable, and easier to
understand —more user friendly. The Development Standards and Architectural Standards have
been separated with bold headings so that the information is easily discernable. On the larger,
detached dwellings and the smaller, detached dwellings, provisions have been added that front
loaded garages must be recessed by a minimum of three feet. A provision was also added that a
minimum of a 2 -car garage must be included in the plans.
On the attached dwellings, there was discussion regarding the exterior building materials.
Masonry has been defined as including not only brick and cultured stone but EFIS as well and
stucco. There was a concern from the Dept. regarding the first floor of the attached dwellings
apartment buildings —and the first floor of the CCRC multi -unit buildings —they should not be
stucco or EFIS. Therefore, the architectural, exterior building materials of those two groups have
been changed to say that they will be masonry on the first floor, excluding stucco, synthetic
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stucco and EFIS. The primary building material on the first floor will be pre -cast concrete or
cement fiberboard; other siding could be on the second floor, with the exception of vinyl. Those
provisions have been scrutinized by the Dept. in order to be consistent with what is desired.
The Use Table is now color -coded for ease and simplicity in correlation to the concept plana
map is to be included in this section. Residential titles were revised to correspond to the text of
the PUD. The text of the PUD talks about larger, detached dwelling, smaller detached dwellings,
attached dwellings, apartments, and the Carmel Use Table did not have those corresponding
titles —there was a disconnect. So, in order to tie it together, definitions of those items have been
included in the definition section. The Use Table has been revise accordingly. Larger, detached
dwellings, smaller detached dwellings, and attached dwellings have been eliminated as Permitted
Uses in the primary office area.
Exhibits presented included the Bicycle and Pedestrian Plan, a dedicated Bike Promenade, the
Open Space Plan, the Neighborhood Amenity Center, and a plaza within the retail village court
area.
Jay Dorman commented that on page 17, there is a "TOT" pool—is it a children's sw immin g pool
or a misprint? Also, page 20, regarding perimeter landscaping —the last sentence states that no
bufferyards or landscaping internal to The Legacy District shall be required between or within the
7 different blocks of The Legacy District —why is that?
Charlie Frankenberger responded that the "Tot" pool is definitely a children's pool and will be
labeled as such, drop the "Tot."
Steve Pittman explained that the landscaping internal to the site is meant to buffer the
surroundings rather than separate and differentiate between larger homes /lots and smaller
homes /lots.
Jay Dorman asked if there was any room for negotiation with a six -foot tree height next to a 3-
story building.
Matt Griffin defined the issue: If you plant much larger than six -foot trees, the mortality rate is so
high it would be re- planted time and time again. Maybe, instead of two, six -foot trees, we need
ten —but height of trees is impossible—it would cost too much to keep them alive.
Steve Pittman said they would try to minimize ponds and preserve trees.
Steve Pittman further commented that in order to get the streets correct, they met with the
Engineering Dept. at least four times as well as the DOCS. The petitioner also met with Ron
Carter and Kevin Heber, serious bikers, and their concepts have been incorporated into the plan.
The Main Boulevard will traverse east /west across River Road. There will be two, 50 -foot rights
of -way, including a large open space area that could be referred to as a bio -swale that could
handle some drainage. It is the intent to have water sheet drain into that area as opposed to
having curbs on the interior side of the street with collective pipes and outletted at a particular
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point where rip -wrap and all sorts of erosion control measures would have to be put into place.
This is also a low impact technique that will filter the water better before it is released into White
River. (The Mayor likes this concept) The plan also shows two, 10 -foot asphalt trails, one of
each side of the road; parallel parking on street is also shown.
Street Type C is the main part of the street that will be coming in from 146 Street to the village
core area. Kevin Heber and Ron Carter suggested some changes in the design and a lot of area
between the building and the street for pedestrian was suggested to be dedicated biking areas on
each side. If you are a bicyclist, there is one way going north and one way going south.
Jay Dorman was concerned about the auto and bike traffic mixing and the potential hazard.
Steve Pittman said there would be appropriate signs and markings; the motorists need to be aware
of the bicycle area, and those people on bicycles need to be aware of the automobile traffic.
Clearly, there is an opportunity for conflict and this brought about the bike promenade that will
allow north/south bike traffic.
The 10 -foot asphalt trails have been pulled up against the street in order to preserve the
woodlands. Also to preserve woodlands, the right -of -way has been reduced from 50 feet to 48
feet.
Along the 146 Street Right -of -way, a 20 -foot green belt buffer for the landscaping has been
incorporated. If additional area is required, the green belt buffer will be reduced to 15 feet and
add 5 feet to the area in front of the buildings to create a bicycle lane. Kevin Heber and Ron
Carter like the idea, and the DOCS Staff was supportive of the idea as well.
Mark Rattermann commented that this was just making this developer put in a whole bunch of
stuff for bicyclists that nobody else is going to use and if they do, it will end up hitting a whole
bunch of pedestrians. Mark was apologetic to the petitioner —that it was probably a lot of pain
for the petitioner to design this. way too much catering to the bicycles, feeling bad for the
petitioner because the bike improvements were not going to be cheap. ...He agreed we need to
have bicycle paths and some provisions, but to say that we will have to build a bicycle path on
146 Street, and then go inside the project and build bike paths adjacent because that is not good
enough is just crazy!
Jay Dorman said he would rather have an extra foot wide on the existing pavement as opposed to
a separate bike lane.
Steve Pittman agreed that yes, there is a lot of expense with the bike paths. Steve said he would
be "eaten alive" by the people he had already met with if he suddenly changed positions on the
bike lanes. This really needs to be worked out in a public forum between the decision makers.
Steve said he was caught in the middle.
Jay Dorman thought that some of the stuff was a little over the top.
Matt Griffin clarified that typically, in an area of this density and use, there would be at least a 10
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to 15 -foot sidewalk for people to use. Basically, all the petitioner has done is divide the width
into areas to separate from the storefronts and pedestrian trafficit is the same amount of
pavement, they have just moved the plantings away from the street edge into the center to define
two different uses.
Charlie Frankenberger said this type of layout has been done in Davis, California and was talked
about at the SeaSide Institute.
Matt Griffin added that this type of plan could be seen in Bloomington, Indiana as well this is a
typical way of handling bike traffic.
Mark Rattermann said he had just left a country that was 50% bicycle use (China) and it is now
25% bicycle. The reason our gas prices are so high is because everyone that rode a bicycle does
not want to ride a bicycle anymore. He stated that bicycles are nice, but they are going to have a
lesser place —and that we CANNOT make Americans ride bicycles if they don't want to. The
Chinese dream is to get rid of the bicycle and get a motorcycle or a car. This is a whole bunch of
"Das I say, not as I do." In going down the list of Councilors and members of the Plan
Commission, no one lives in a high density development in this community and it is hypocritical
for us to all sit here and say we should live some other way than we do. This is just the perfect
illustration of "Do as I say, not as I do." We are not going to use these bicycle paths "I have
never once seen a bicyclist on the bike path on 116 Street NEVER!" We spent $60,000 to
stripe the road and I have never seen a bicyclist on the path —this is a bunch of hooey! This is
Ron Carter putting his thumb on the developer saying "You have to do this." I feel bad for the
developer (Pittman.) If Ron Carter wants to be on the Plan Commission, then (expletive) he
should be on the Plan Commission. I am sick and tired of this, everywhere I look is this kind of
crap —this will have to be the last year that I am on the Plan Commission because I am sick of
this —all of this politics crap!" The Staff has lost credibility —with me and with the developers, all
you do is get marching orders from up above and it makes me wonder how much I can take."
Matt Griffin pointed out that the City has an Alternative Transportation Ordinance that was voted
on by the Plan Commission and the City Council. Our Engineering Dept. is responsible for
buildings, this is part of that —the connections to this site are part of that. Some of it is not, but
there is a lot of energy behind this and whether or not who put that in place —that is not known,
but we did not just dream this up overnight to say that bikes will magically appear here. The City
has a long term plan to provide facilities to accommodate it. As the City builds out, the emphasis
will go from suburban design to residential infill, these type of improvements will become an
important option.........
Mark Rattermann: Ahhh, there we go—you just said it: "If we are going to become more urban,
this is what we have to do." Now we have the primary differential between what is being put out
and what is really happening here. I am saying that this is clearly "We want Carmel to be
Chicago."
Matt Griffin: No, it is clearly resolved that we are the 17 fastest growing County in the Country,
and if more people keep moving here because we have a high quality of life, then how do you
accommodate that growth? You can't close the doors and say "You can't sell your property and
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develop it any more, too bad, and then close the door behind you.
Mark Rattermann: This is exactly what I am saying, it is "Do as I say, not as I do."
We can't put the developer in the middle, he is trying to get a vote at City Council and get the
Staff s permission and the Mayor's blessing —that is all there is on this. I'm sitting here
complaining because I am sick of it and I am—it is as simple as that. It is unfair to saddle the
petitioner with this because politically I couldn't disagree more. It is just over the top and I'm
sorry I am on this rant, but that's tough! I know these guys just grit their teeth but they will never
say it when they have to do this kind of crap. If we want Carmel to be the People's Republic of
Carmel, then I guess that is what we do.
Jay Dorman was at a loss as to how to move forward, other than to say, "I understand what is
here."
Steve Pittman then referred to the Type F Exhibit. There is a 46 -foot right -of -way. The area is
about a 20 -foot grade change, and as you get to the toe of the change, there will be a 46 -foot
right -of -way, and the very first, actual bike promenade. There is a one -way street to the north,
and one to the south. We tie into the multi purpose path continues its direction all the way to
146 Street and as it meets, there is two -way traffic.
Mark Rattermann said he wanted to revise his comments "I may vote "No" on this just because
of this (one -way street) this is the bunch of biggest crap I have ever seen."
Steve Pittman commented that the bike path/promenade is definitely an amenity and he was not
upset by it.
Mark Rattermann responded that if the developer walked in the door and said he was going to
build one lane streets one way, he would say "No," but we are all going to do this because we are
going to get down and kiss the feet of somebody who wants bicycle paths. I'm sorry, you are
losing my vote here. I know who is putting you in the middle, but this is a bunch of hooey, this is
nothing but "We are going to placate one guy who has to have everything bicycle." I'm sorry.
Steve Pittman said he was not under the impression it was just one guy.
Mark Rattermann: "Yes it is, it is just one guy, and so, I'm sorry, you have lost my vote."
Steve Pittman responded that with the project, the provision is included for people to get through
this community from River Road all the way to Hazel Dell for inner- connectivity. Also, we really
want to force people to drive down the Legacy's main village core in terms of retail traffic.
If the Engineering Dept. or Councilman wants us to change that, we will do what we are asked.
Mark Rattermann: "No, you are going to do what they ask, and I am telling you I was elected to
do something here, and the way the election said, I get a vote on this and I am just not a believer
anymore. You will have to decide whether or not you want Mr. Carter's vote or my vote, that's
what it really gets down to, because I am just not going to go for this anymore. I know this is a
terrible thing to put you right in the middle of this stuff, but quite honestly, I know the pressure
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comes from the Staff, I know the pressure comes from thisI am just not going for it anymore,
simple as that. I'm sorry."
Steve Pittman: "What I ask of you is that you make yourself perfectly clear—if you will stick
with us mentally through this process and give us the good and the bad. We know how you feel
about the bike path, but I don't want you to just not pay attention any more and not be a part of
the process anymore."
Mark Rattermann: "OK."
Steve Pittman further explained the different exhibits. Exhibit 15, street lighting plan, nothing has
really changed there—we have incorporated the suggestions that we meet the dark sky and have
cut -off lighting fixtures.
Steve Pittman additional comments: "This reminds me in a way of many times when I come in to
do a development and we are developing a raw piece of land next to a subdivision and there is a
stub street to us. Carmel's policy or ordinance has always been that we have inner- connectivity.
All of the adjacent neighborhoods are saying, `If you connect to me, Steve, we are going to fight
your development but if you do not connect to me, your development is fine.' I have always
said that I am doing what I have been asked to do, but you guys need to come and influence the
City of Carmel, the Plan Commission, the City Council, whomever, so I would just say to you,
Mark, if you feel strongly, that I think you should continue to use your influence in how you feel."
Mark Rattermann: "And your point is
Steve Pittman: "I guess my point is, don't just throw this in the trash can, I would just ask you to
continue to try to be influential of your feelings."
Mark Rattermann: "I am—that's what I just didI told Staff this is crapI cannot make it any
clearer to them."
Steve Pittman: "I mean with the voters, people who are going to vote on this."
Mark Rattermann: "I can tell you right now what is going to happen. I know what this will go
down—it will go down like it does every (expletive) meeting over there, it will be 5 to 7
correction 5 to 2. The thing of it is, I don't owe anybody anything, so I can sit up there and rant
and rave about this stuff and I already know what is going to happen in the next election, OK, and
who is supporting who—everybody else has got to worry about thatI don't, I don't care. That
is all there is to it —I'll say what I want to say, and if it means I got to call it the way I see it, I
will, because I don't really care. I know I am not on the Mayor's Christmas list and I'm probably
not on Matt's Christmas list anymore, but that's OK."
Steve Pittman: "From an ego perspective, I would be happy with a 5 -2 vote; from an ego
perspective I like 7 -0, so I am not giving up on you."
Mark Rattermann: "It is not your fault, because what we got here is somebody exercising too
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(expletive) much power here and because it comes from one level up, OK, he gets anything he
wants, and as I am sitting here looking at this thing— and wonder what the heck is going on here?
But I know what is going on here. I am going to be real criticalit is not being real critical to
you, it is being real critical here and somebody has got it in -it is just like —all upstairs, all they
talk about is Rattermann will never let this go through, we'll see about this in the paper, etc, etc.
I'm doing it here, I'm just making an issue and so, tomorrow, the first thing he is going to do is
go to Hollibaugh, and Hollibaugh will go to the Mayor and say that Rattermann really lost it last
night over these bicycle paths, OK? And that is exactly fine."
Steve Pittman: "To go a different direction, you have been very influential and demanding higher
architectural standards, that has been your hot button, and you have gotten it. There may be
people that say Wow, this is crazy that someone has to do two windows in every level and two
this and that, and overhangs, etc. So, we are trying to accommodate those things also. I guess
everyone has his thing."
Jay Dorman said that what is interesting about the bicycles is that it is different —when you have
not experienced Davis, California, you can't get a feel for it. If I went to Davis, California, I
would come back with a different appreciation for whether or not I thought it could work. Right
now, I think it is a bit challenging.
Steve Stromquist commented that he used to cycle all over because he could not afford a car
when I was in college. I love the bike promenade, I think the petitioner has explained it very well
on the intent, why you put it where it is, why there is a one -way street going north, the intent to
drive the traffic to the retail and commercial development area. I like it along 146 Street, but I
don't like it where bicycles run into pedestrian trafficit is totally uncalled for —that is what is
very overboard. The promenade is good, it makes sense along 146 can't those people that
want to ride a bike to work still ride it along the 146 Street path and be able to get to their place
of employment?
Matt Griffin responded that it is more a question of "Will they If there is an 8 to 10 foot
sidewalk, will they opt to ride on the sidewalk and forego going across the parking lot to get next
to the street and ride down. If they are going to a place of employment, will they just cut in and
use those sidewalks as a cut through —that is the concern. If they are going to be down there, do
we pull them out of the pedestrian way and sort of move the planters around so that they are
encouraged not to be where people are walking.
Steve Stromquist thought it was overkill— bicyclists today run lights, don't signal, they think they
are a car —they want to be treated as both and that seems to be where the problem is. If you are a
true cyclist, you would follow the rules —you would not ride your bike down a sidewalk where
there are retail shops —there could be several conflicts.
Steve Pittman noted that the debate on this is interesting; normally, it is the developer not wanting
to put in more infrastructure —this is a little different debate. We are saying that we are willing to
put in the infrastructure if that is what is required.
Mark Rattermann: "You are really not —Matt just said it is the same amount of sidewalk, now we
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are just partitioning it between the bicycles and the pedestrians —same amount of pavement."
Steve Pittman said they were adding more along 146 Street.
Mark Rattermann: "That is true, but you were going to have to do that anyway."
Steve Pittman explained that they did not have as much space between the road and the fronts of
the buildings —they were asked to put more (space) in for bicycles and we agreed 146 Street is
a multi purpose path that exists today —what they are saying is that inside the development, when
you look at the cross section, you look at the area between the edge of pavement and the
building, there is a distance of 20 feet —there are 13 feet where you see people walking. The first
thing you see is a 10 -foot multi purpose path, then a 15 -foot greenbelt buffer, then the streeta
frontage road where the car will travel, the parallel parking, then the 20 -foot area between the
front of the building and the edge of the curb where the cars are parking. 13 feet are dedicated as
a pedestrian zone, the 7 -foot area is a bike zone. (the planters are part of the pedestrian zone)
Jay Dorman thought of a possible, work around consideration, going back to the promenade on
Street Type Fso we took a lane of traffic that is 12 feet —the infrastructure is there, it is just
subdivided differently. If, for some reason, it presents a challenge to health, safety, welfare, or the
future build -out of the development, meaning they need a two -way street, no big deal —you cover
up the bike signs and make it a two -way street, and you're done!
Mark Rattermann asked what was adjacent, to the west —Steve Pittman responded that it would
run to the road as a bike promenade, then there is a big, 20 -foot ridge (bigger lots up high.)
Mark said the streets are not made for thatit could not happen —the bicycle path is at a different
elevation.
Nick Churchill said that from a safety perspective, it was felt that separation of a curb would be
the best bet in order to designate that as a non traffic area, more pedestrian use.
Matt Griffin commented that if they are looking to get rid of the bikeway, there is a whole
different construction standard for car -way and they don't want to pay for that if it is not going to
be for cars—it is a lot cheaper to throw a couple of levels of asphalt down as opposed to all the
compaction necessary for cars. If it is going to be for cars, they need to plan for that now.
Steve Stromquist asked the petitioner to elaborate on number 6 on the letter dated November 22n
regarding residential signage. Does this refer to neighborhood signage?
Nick Churchill responded that the illumination of any such signage (residential) shall be from a
source external to such signage. Residential signs refer to entry -way monumentation. It has not
been decided if the signage will show differentiation or call out different areas. Obviously there
are street names. Maybe gateway signs would notify you that you are entering the Legacy, but as
far as a sub-sign—it is not inside the subdivision.
Jay Dorman referred back to the bike paths. Perhaps if the developer is going to the extent to
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carve out bike sections, maybe the City needs to maintain it and shovel it during the snows so that
bikes can be ridden and no one has an accident and sues the City for something they asked the
developer to install. The point is that we are creating something that needs separate maintenance
that goes through an operating budget for the City the same as downtown.
Mark Rattermann asked if the City was then going to raise the taxes to accommodate?
Steve Pittman then gave a "for instance:" Snow removal in Ashbury Subdivision is not done by
the City—unless Ashbury wanted to wait four days. The HOA that will be set up here and that
residents will pay into will include all of the streets, and the bike promenade would be a part of
the snow removal—it will not be an additional cost to the City.
In response to questions from Sue Westermeier, Matt Griffin said the architecture and the design
of the project is governed by a framework of requirements for each of these types. In terms of
color palette, the Commission will see that piece -by- piece -by- piece, since there is the flexibility
that can be exercised at the ADLS process and stage.
Mark Rattermann cautioned that California is a very big state, and you can find anything in
California, I mean anything. What I am saying is that if this is represented as the hot set -up and
this is what is going on —take it with a grain of salt. You will find some really cool stuff in
California, but you will also find some real stinkers. Just because Davis, California is doing it, it
does not mean that it is the hot set -up, there is just someone out there who is pushing it.
Sue Westermeier also asked about the transportation plan and the access points —our Engineers
are OK with that? And What about the construction traffic routing, has that been addressed?
Matt Griffin said the City Engineers were OK with the design, however, it is not within their
jurisdiction.
Charlie Frankenberger said the petitioner could not commit to things over which they have no
control. For instance, we cannot commit that construction traffic will not enter the Legacy by
traveling north on River Road—we are not driving the trucks. We cannot make it part of the
PUD Ordinance because the City has difficulty enforcing that as well. What we can do is what we
have always done—implement a policy, post signs stating "No truck/construction traffic" going
through the neighborhoods, and let the builders know that their employees are not to enter the
Legacy by making a left turn while traveling north on River Road.
Steve Pittman stated that they would make a commitment to notify all of their sub contractors
that they are not to utilize River Road.
Jay Dorman paraphrased: The developer will post signs to direct heavy construction traffic not to
travel north on River Road and into the Legacy and to only enter from a point of ingress /egress
off of 146 Street.
Matt Griffin stated that permission for posting construction traffic signs would have to be granted
from Engineering.
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Charlie Frankenberger thought perhaps an exhibit should be attached to the PUD spelling out the
construction traffic route. (Heavy Construction Traffic)
Susan Westermeier encouraged the petitioner to list their LEEDS accomplishments /certifications
when making a presentation to the Plan Commission. Also include the letter from the School
System. It should also be noted that all pocket parks are within a 5— minute walk.
The petitioner is to include language in the PUD that will comply with the bicycle parking
requirements in the Ordinance.
Sue Westermeier made formal motion to forward Docket No. 060500001, The Legacy East PUD
to the full Commission with a positive recommendation, subject to bike parking language,
consistency in the name, change I numbering in section 17 for clarity for maximum and potential
units, clarity on the children's (TOT) wading pool, labeling exhibits, and an up -dated Use Table
for the December 19 meeting, seconded by Jay Dorman, approved three in favor, one opposed
Rattermann.)
Note: Mark Rattermann stated he was only opposed because of the bicycle path/situation.
There was no further discussion and the meeting adjourned at 8:25 PM.
Steve Stromquist, Chairperson
Ramona Hancock
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